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Is Doctor Who Losing People's Interest? |
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#326 |
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Join Date: Aug 2014
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They may well have been things fans have speculated about, but that doesn't mean they have to be dramatised - and certainly not for the sake of a cheap gag. The show's heritage might not need to be preserved like a relic but Moffat IS the curator of that heritage and we don't need him crashing around the museum, moving the exhibits around because he feels like it and destroying the ones he doesn't like and changing all their heads.
Moffat's delved into the Doctor's past a little, but he's done it in a subtle and careful way that's actually raised more questions about the character while not necessarily answering any. Bear in mind RTD nearly gave us a spin-off about a young Doctor on Gallifrey, Andrew Cartmel kept dropping not-so-subtle hints that the Doctor is actually the reincarnation of the Other, and Terrance Dicks and Malcolm Hulke actually invented a name for the character. |
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#327 |
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But it would just be the next stage of the show if Moffat's era was retconned in some way. His episodes wouldn't actually disappear - you'd still have them. Just within the show's mythology they would be illusion.
Interesting that you dislike the thought of Moffat's input being changed, but it's OK for Moffat to do it with stuff that went before. It's exactly the same, you know. It's not just that I dislike the thought of Moffat's era being retconned, but I would genuinely be horrified if that happened to any writer on the show. It would be a real crappy thing to do and just make the show look even more stupid. |
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#328 |
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Join Date: May 2012
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I don't feel like this is what happened to the mythology at all. Doctor Who has never had a particularly tight mythology to begin with, we're always seeing different settings and different characters... at most we've got Daleks, Cybermen, UNIT, Gallifrey and stuff like that but that's about as far as the mythos goes, and they were always changing all the time before Moffat touched the show.
Moffat's delved into the Doctor's past a little, but he's done it in a subtle and careful way that's actually raised more questions about the character while not necessarily answering any. Bear in mind RTD nearly gave us a spin-off about a young Doctor on Gallifrey, Andrew Cartmel kept dropping not-so-subtle hints that the Doctor is actually the reincarnation of the Other, and Terrance Dicks and Malcolm Hulke actually invented a name for the character. |
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#329 |
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Join Date: May 2012
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Give me one example of when Moffat retconned an entire era of another writer's work.
It's not just that I dislike the thought of Moffat's era being retconned, but I would genuinely be horrified if that happened to any writer on the show. It would be a real crappy thing to do and just make the show look even more stupid. ![]() ![]()
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#330 |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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I don't feel like this is what happened to the mythology at all. Doctor Who has never had a particularly tight mythology to begin with, we're always seeing different settings and different characters... at most we've got Daleks, Cybermen, UNIT, Gallifrey and stuff like that but that's about as far as the mythos goes, and they were always changing all the time before Moffat touched the show.
Moffat's delved into the Doctor's past a little, but he's done it in a subtle and careful way that's actually raised more questions about the character while not necessarily answering any. Bear in mind RTD nearly gave us a spin-off about a young Doctor on Gallifrey, Andrew Cartmel kept dropping not-so-subtle hints that the Doctor is actually the reincarnation of the Other, and Terrance Dicks and Malcolm Hulke actually invented a name for the character. |
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#331 |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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Give me one example of when Moffat retconned an entire era of another writer's work.
It's not just that I dislike the thought of Moffat's era being retconned, but I would genuinely be horrified if that happened to any writer on the show. It would be a real crappy thing to do and just make the show look even more stupid. I agree that writers change stuff we've already seen, and that's OK to a point. I don't see why it's more horrific if Moffat's stuff is changed en masse by any future showrunner, if it serves the story he/she wants to tell. |
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#332 |
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No other writer's era deserves to be retconned. And I am unanimous in this!!!
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#333 |
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Join Date: May 2013
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Well, he didn't exactly retcon. But I never knew Clara told the Doctor which Tardis to choose, did you? And I didn't know there was a War Doctor. In fact, RTD's Time War history was pretty much altered by Moffat, wasn't it?
I agree that writers change stuff we've already seen, and that's OK to a point. I don't see why it's more horrific if Moffat's stuff is changed en masse by any future showrunner, if it serves the story he/she wants to tell. They're basically all colleagues/friends with their own take on Who at the end of the football manager's cliché. I mean, at the end of the day! |
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#334 |
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Steven Moffats pantry
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I don't think SM would be bothered either going from interviews I've read with him! His mate Chibbers is (soon) the Man in charge and will follow his muse. I think SM was a bit concerned about addressing RTD's 'Time War' stuff, but I would think he was fine with it. And RTD IIRC was wondering what Sir Terrence, etc would make of his 'last of the Timelords' stuff when he started.
They're basically all colleagues/friends with their own take on Who at the end of the football manager's cliché. I mean, at the end of the day! |
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#335 |
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Steven Moffats pantry
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But it would just be the next stage of the show if Moffat's era was retconned in some way. His episodes wouldn't actually disappear - you'd still have them. Just within the show's mythology they would be illusion.
Interesting that you dislike the thought of Moffat's input being changed, but it's OK for Moffat to do it with stuff that went before. It's exactly the same, you know. It's not 'exactly the same' anymore as a wet weekend in Blackpool is 'exactly the same' as Hurricane Katrina because they both involve rain. |
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#336 |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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It is widely accepted that the 'it was all a dream' trope is one of the laziest, most insulting gimmicks to use ever since Dallas did the ridiculous 'stepping out of the shower' retcon. Tinkering here and there or adding elements is one thing (and some of Moffats have been bad I admit) but it is incomparable to the concept of another writer essentially erasing someones work with one sweep of the pen. It would be professional suicide for whoever did it and mark the beginning of the end for the show. And yes it would be unforgivably disrespectful.
It's not 'exactly the same' anymore as a wet weekend in Blackpool is 'exactly the same' as Hurricane Katrina because they both involve rain. I don't see why making the Doctor's life since Clara all an illusion is lazier than the time loop codswallop of The Big Bang. And, as I said, the work would not actually be erased. It would still be there, but have a different twist to it in retrospect., like the Time War has now. What's the problem? As Michael said, unless Moffat has an even bigger ego than I think he has, which would be difficult, he would probably view the development with interest. Why not? |
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#337 |
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Join Date: May 2013
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As an aside, I wonder if the young Mr Chibbers appearance on the BBC back in the day slagging off JNT and the Bakers re: The Trial of a Timelord (I remember watching it at the time!) will mean he decides to give Gallifrey and the Timelords and all that stuff a wide berth?
Being silly, he was a kid, but I do find it funny that this youth criticising the current Producer/writers in 1986 is about to take charge of the programme. Hope he's got a thick skin!
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#338 |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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As an aside, I wonder if the young Mr Chibbers appearance on the BBC back in the day slagging off JNT and the Bakers re: The Trial of a Timelord (I remember watching it at the time!) will mean he decides to give Gallifrey and the Timelords and all that stuff a wide berth?
Being silly, he was a kid, but I do find it funny that this youth criticising the current Producer/writers in 1986 is about to take charge of the programme. Hope he's got a thick skin! ![]()
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#339 |
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,506
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You may think so. I disagree.
I don't see why making the Doctor's life since Clara all an illusion is lazier than the time loop codswallop of The Big Bang. And, as I said, the work would not actually be erased. It would still be there, but have a different twist to it in retrospect., like the Time War has now. What's the problem? As Michael said, unless Moffat has an even bigger ego than I think he has, which would be difficult, he would probably view the development with interest. Why not? And like saladfingers said, there's a bit of a difference between having somebody's entire era retconned as there is developing someone else's creation such as the Time War (which I always took as a compliment to RTD that Moffat wanted to continue some of his contributions to the show). |
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#340 |
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,506
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As an aside, I wonder if the young Mr Chibbers appearance on the BBC back in the day slagging off JNT and the Bakers re: The Trial of a Timelord (I remember watching it at the time!) will mean he decides to give Gallifrey and the Timelords and all that stuff a wide berth?
Being silly, he was a kid, but I do find it funny that this youth criticising the current Producer/writers in 1986 is about to take charge of the programme. Hope he's got a thick skin! ![]()
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#341 |
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Steven Moffats pantry
Posts: 8,808
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You may think so. I disagree.
I don't see why making the Doctor's life since Clara all an illusion is lazier than the time loop codswallop of The Big Bang. And, as I said, the work would not actually be erased. It would still be there, but have a different twist to it in retrospect., like the Time War has now. What's the problem? As Michael said, unless Moffat has an even bigger ego than I think he has, which would be difficult, he would probably view the development with interest. Why not? Also, The Big Bang was 60 minutes of TV. To erase everything from Clara onwards just because you don't like it? And it's Moffat with the big ego? The work of countless actors, writers, directors etc across entire seasons of TV being reduced to a dream is an idiotic and disrespectful idea. It was done in Dallas when the producers realised they had written themselves into a hole they could not get out of and that they had made a massive mistake. Fans were in uproar. So it was done in a misguided attempt at course correction. Millions of people have perfectly enjoyed the last few seasons of Doctor Who and see no reason for it to be written off. (Apart from Clara giving the first Doctor the Tardis and all that- the sooner someone gets rid of that the better- and its easily done). |
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#342 |
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,076
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I'm one of the people who do think Moffat went way to far with his messing with Doctor Who mythology, and the bad thing it never adds anything it just cheapens the lore/mythology/mysteries. Ironic considering Moffat said he wanted to put the Who back into Doctor Who, no one has done more to take the Who out.
I would be fine with a future writer saying the Moffat era was some mad acid trip the Doctor was on after a difficult regeneration from 10 to 11, that carried on into his twelfth regeneration, maybe they could say when the Tardis was crashing he banged his head or something ![]() But seriously I do think Moffat has damaged the fabric of the show, I think the best thing future writers can do is just simply ignore it and go about telling great stories that are far removed from the convoluted lore mess that Moffat has de-evolved into writing... They should do stuff like Moffats first work that was just interested in telling good stories using the DW formula as a jumping off point, I.E The Empty Child 2parter and Blink. |
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#343 |
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Join Date: May 2013
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I think he kind of shot himself in the foot when he wrote stuff like Day One and Cyberwoman. At least Pip and Jane Baker were a little more innocent with their female anatomy monsters.
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#344 |
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Steven Moffats pantry
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I'm one of the people who do think Moffat went way to far with his messing with Doctor Who mythology, and the bad thing it never adds anything it just cheapens the lore/mythology/mysteries. Ironic considering Moffat said he wanted to put the Who back into Doctor Who, no one has done more to take the Who out.
I would be fine with a future writer saying the Moffat era was some mad acid trip the Doctor was on after a difficult regeneration from 10 to 11, that carried on into his twelfth regeneration, maybe they could say when the Tardis was crashing he banged his head or something ![]() But seriously I do think Moffat has damaged the fabric of the show, I think the best thing future writers can do is just simply ignore it and go about telling great stories that are far removed from the convoluted lore mess that Moffat has de-evolved into writing... They should do stuff like Moffats first work that was just interested in telling good stories using the DW formula as a jumping off point, I.E The Empty Child 2parter and Blink.
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#345 |
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Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 695
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I don't feel like this is what happened to the mythology at all. Doctor Who has never had a particularly tight mythology to begin with, we're always seeing different settings and different characters... at most we've got Daleks, Cybermen, UNIT, Gallifrey and stuff like that but that's about as far as the mythos goes, and they were always changing all the time before Moffat touched the show.
Moffat's delved into the Doctor's past a little, but he's done it in a subtle and careful way that's actually raised more questions about the character while not necessarily answering any. Bear in mind RTD nearly gave us a spin-off about a young Doctor on Gallifrey, Andrew Cartmel kept dropping not-so-subtle hints that the Doctor is actually the reincarnation of the Other, and Terrance Dicks and Malcolm Hulke actually invented a name for the character. First of all Clara being the reason The Doctor chose the TARDIS and saved him in every adventure. I'll give you an example, it is the same as a God from the background controlling your destiny when they see fit, your free will is not there. That is the first issue with this. Another example with Clara is in Listen, The Doctor has an emotional speech but instead of his experiences and actions being the reason for it, this is once again Clara. This part has less to do with mythology, but rather Moffat ingraining Clara in every part of the Doctor's life. Then we move on to the biggest issue of mine, the hybrid arc. This changed the most important character trait of The Doctor for 50 years on the show, his reason for doing what he does. It defined him as a character for so long, but apparently that wasn't deep enough and apparently The Doctor always knew of his terrible fate, this isn't just changing the mythology, it is ripping it apart. Then the War Doctor a creation to allow Moffat to reset the regeneration cycle himself, but the biggest issue that he is The Doctor's big secret. No he really isn't another massive change in mythology right here. Then we have The Daleks, now they can't say most of the words in the created universe? When we have firstly seen them say those words, secondly we have seen people go inside a Dalek and are able to speak perfectly fine. It is just Moffat once again changing the mythology of characters because by his own admittance struggles to write them. Then we had the completely and utterly pointless Dalek memory wipe which would have destroyed all the history created between them and The Doctor. Lucky he realised the errors in his ways about that. |
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#346 |
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,076
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And I would totally love it if Twelve gave a speech where he completely disowned Donna Noble, pondered whatever it was he was thinking to let her anywhere near a Tardis and apologised for all the sappy Doctor/Donna nonsense. But I realise it aint going to happen not only out of respect for RTD but also for all the fans who still have her posters on the wall and loved their dynamic. Many people, not on this forum admittedly, LOVED Clara Oswald. They loved Jenna Coleman. So the same applies. It's funny people saying it wouldnt erase the episodes...well with that logic do you know whats even easier? Turn off your TV whenever Doctor Who comes on between now and next Christmas. And then in 2018 watch The End of Time, stop it five minutes before the end, and then watch the debut of the New Doctor. Simple as.
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#347 |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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Unless said development was going back to Tennant's Doctor regenerating and realising the whole of Series 5-10 was a dream the Master gave him for some reason. That's just stupid writing.
And like saladfingers said, there's a bit of a difference between having somebody's entire era retconned as there is developing someone else's creation such as the Time War (which I always took as a compliment to RTD that Moffat wanted to continue some of his contributions to the show). Quote:
I was referring to the earlier suggestion that they should essentially erase the entirety of Moffats era and regress back to Tennant. Tinkering with elements of Moffats mythology is fair game as he has done with others. To attempt to denigrate or write him out of official continuity would be insulting and utterly stupid. Though I think even the op who suggested it is probably well aware of that.
Also, The Big Bang was 60 minutes of TV. To erase everything from Clara onwards just because you don't like it? And it's Moffat with the big ego? The work of countless actors, writers, directors etc across entire seasons of TV being reduced to a dream is an idiotic and disrespectful idea. It was done in Dallas when the producers realised they had written themselves into a hole they could not get out of and that they had made a massive mistake. Fans were in uproar. So it was done in a misguided attempt at course correction. Millions of people have perfectly enjoyed the last few seasons of Doctor Who and see no reason for it to be written off. (Apart from Clara giving the first Doctor the Tardis and all that- the sooner someone gets rid of that the better- and its easily done). I never said erase anything, I said give it a new twist by having it be an illusion. And I never said do it because I hate the Big Bang, I said having the Clara years as illusion was no lazier than having a time loop with no explanation. I really must express myself very badly. Possibly because I type so slowly I try to take short cuts with the meaning of what I'm saying. ![]()
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#348 |
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Wigan
Posts: 4,881
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SM's era is just another era and deserves to be retconned or erased no more than any other writer's era.
Obviously it's never going to happen, but I can't believe you lot are discussing this in all seriousness. You lot begin to sound like that idiot who used to come on here and proclaim that the 2005 series was not a continuation and was still waiting for one. He or she must have not taken to RTD's era as much as you haven't taken to SM's era. There are plenty of people who don't have such hatred for the SM era. What huge egos you must have to think, even for a second, that your personal, purely subjective opinion of an era entitles you to erase an era. Any era. If, as fans, we were all able pick our favourites and chuck out what we don't like, there'd be nothing left after the first couple of dozen fans had done their work. |
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#349 |
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Join Date: Nov 2015
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SM has written some of the greatest episodes but he is just no show runner. That's where is went wrong. Now RTD knew how to run it.
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#350 |
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Join Date: Nov 2015
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...They should do stuff like Moffats first work that was just interested in telling good stories using the DW formula as a jumping off point, I.E The Empty Child 2parter and Blink.
TV that the world stopped and held its breath for. Let's get back to that! |
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