I have begun to loose interest. I liked Matt Smith but thought he was given very uneven series in terms of scripts. Peter Capaldi's has been even worse, the last series was all about Clara and got boring very, very quickly.
Is Doctor Who Losing People's Interest?
15 of 19
Originally Posted by GDK:
“SM's era is just another era and deserves to be retconned or erased no more than any other writer's era.
Obviously it's never going to happen, but I can't believe you lot are discussing this in all seriousness. You lot begin to sound like that idiot who used to come on here and proclaim that the 2005 series was not a continuation and was still waiting for one. He or she must have not taken to RTD's era as much as you haven't taken to SM's era. There are plenty of people who don't have such hatred for the SM era.
What huge egos you must have to think, even for a second, that your personal, purely subjective opinion of an era entitles you to erase an era.
Any era.
If, as fans, we were all able pick our favourites and chuck out what we don't like, there'd be nothing left after the first couple of dozen fans had done their work.”
“SM's era is just another era and deserves to be retconned or erased no more than any other writer's era.
Obviously it's never going to happen, but I can't believe you lot are discussing this in all seriousness. You lot begin to sound like that idiot who used to come on here and proclaim that the 2005 series was not a continuation and was still waiting for one. He or she must have not taken to RTD's era as much as you haven't taken to SM's era. There are plenty of people who don't have such hatred for the SM era.
What huge egos you must have to think, even for a second, that your personal, purely subjective opinion of an era entitles you to erase an era.
Any era.
If, as fans, we were all able pick our favourites and chuck out what we don't like, there'd be nothing left after the first couple of dozen fans had done their work.”
I'm not serious.
The interesting thing is people springing to the defence of Moffat.
Originally Posted by Brian The Dog:
“And father's day and Family of Blood 2parter.
TV that the world stopped and held its breath for.
Let's get back to that!”
“And father's day and Family of Blood 2parter.
TV that the world stopped and held its breath for.
Let's get back to that!”
Not written by Moffat of course, but I agree.
All those episodes, and some others, were something really special.
Let's hope we get a few more like that very soon!
Originally Posted by Granny McSmith:
“I'm not serious.
The interesting thing is people springing to the defence of Moffat.”
“I'm not serious.
The interesting thing is people springing to the defence of Moffat.”
Phew! You had me worried for a moment there, Granny!
I think others were serious though.
Originally Posted by Brian The Dog:
“SM has written some of the greatest episodes but he is just no show runner. That's where is went wrong. Now RTD knew how to run it.”
“SM has written some of the greatest episodes but he is just no show runner. That's where is went wrong. Now RTD knew how to run it.”
I think this is the core problem. When RTD brought the show back he had a clear vision of how he wanted it to be, the directions he wanted to drive it and its characters in, how and when he'd bring back iconic old characters and monsters. With so much of this achieved and to huge acclaim and audiences, Moffat had no choice but to do something different and he didn't have any real ideas beyond the misguided concept of the Doctor as "a madman in a box" (which just turned the Doctor into a gibbering irritant most of the time) and the almost catastrophic idea that the series is a "fairytale" - which is why some fans have proclaimed some of his episodes to be "charming" and "magical" - two things the show really has no place being. Moffat wrote his best stuff under RTD, when he was only responsible for writing one or two episodes. He is pretty clueless when it comes to plotting arcs, shaping season structures and...er...writing good scripts full of interesting characters. He's also clearly not the sort of "guiding light" that RTD was, he has no real clear vision of what he wants the show to be or how it should be made and marketed.
Originally Posted by Paul_Mount:
“I think this is the core problem. When RTD brought the show back he had a clear vision of how he wanted it to be, the directions he wanted to drive it and its characters in, how and when he'd bring back iconic old characters and monsters. With so much of this achieved and to huge acclaim and audiences, Moffat had no choice but to do something different and he didn't have any real ideas beyond the misguided concept of the Doctor as "a madman in a box" (which just turned the Doctor into a gibbering irritant most of the time) and the almost catastrophic idea that the series is a "fairytale" - which is why some fans have proclaimed some of his episodes to be "charming" and "magical" - two things the show really has no place being. Moffat wrote his best stuff under RTD, when he was only responsible for writing one or two episodes. He is pretty clueless when it comes to plotting arcs, shaping season structures and...er...writing good scripts full of interesting characters. He's also clearly not the sort of "guiding light" that RTD was, he has no real clear vision of what he wants the show to be or how it should be made and marketed.”
“I think this is the core problem. When RTD brought the show back he had a clear vision of how he wanted it to be, the directions he wanted to drive it and its characters in, how and when he'd bring back iconic old characters and monsters. With so much of this achieved and to huge acclaim and audiences, Moffat had no choice but to do something different and he didn't have any real ideas beyond the misguided concept of the Doctor as "a madman in a box" (which just turned the Doctor into a gibbering irritant most of the time) and the almost catastrophic idea that the series is a "fairytale" - which is why some fans have proclaimed some of his episodes to be "charming" and "magical" - two things the show really has no place being. Moffat wrote his best stuff under RTD, when he was only responsible for writing one or two episodes. He is pretty clueless when it comes to plotting arcs, shaping season structures and...er...writing good scripts full of interesting characters. He's also clearly not the sort of "guiding light" that RTD was, he has no real clear vision of what he wants the show to be or how it should be made and marketed.”
I have to agree. I'm not sure why Mr. Moffat seems to think that each series of the show under his watch must be something new. A new tone, a new structure and so on. Fairytale, arc heavy, film of the week, more two parters. Rather than building a famiar era with a tonal narrative that spans multiple series we have had 5 different series each, imo, putting the breaks on getting to know the show and characters under his guidance. Imo, his arcs after series 5 have severely hampered the show. From pretty much all character development that comes naturally via plain old simple 'getting to know you' especially for the mysterious Clara, to the uninspiring dullness of 'Am I a good man' right through to the Meh-arama of Trenzalore and the most pointless cramming in of a character in the form of 'Me' I say character but as with this showrunner they are arc ideas rather than relatable people. Danny Pink and splinter Clara anyone?
Again this is just personal conjecture. The 'new approach to keep things fresh' each series has done everything but keep the show fresh. It has stagnated it.
I agree. It does seem he has had no clear vision to what he has wanted the show to be. Take Capaldi's era so far. What, from his first series, has carried over as a character arc? What is it the public will remember his era for? He is no longer as Scottish. Thats about it. Remember how proud the show was that Capaldi was keeping his Scottish accent. That was dropped like a stone after his first series. Now we have a Tom Baker impression. If series 10 is to be Capaldi's last. What is it his era will be remembered for? I can't see it being for a great series arc conclusion/final episode. Am I a good man? Sonic Shades? There isn't a lot to go on thinking about it, character or arc wise. That is down to the showrunners lack of direction from series to series.
The new colourful Daleks, dropped. The fairytale vibe of series 5, dropped. The boxset binge approach of series 6, dropped. The film of the week episodes, dropped. More two parters in a series, dropped.
They say familiarity breeds contempt. I think this show runners era from series 6 onwards has turned that phrase on it's head.
Originally Posted by CAMERA OBSCURA:
“I have to agree. I'm not sure why Mr. Moffat seems to think that each series of the show under his watch must be something new. A new tone, a new structure and so on. Fairytale, arc heavy, film of the week, more two parters. Rather than building a famiar era with a tonal narrative that spans multiple series we have had 5 different series each, imo, putting the breaks on getting to know the show and characters under his guidance. Imo, his arcs after series 5 have severely hampered the show. From pretty much all character development that comes naturally via plain old simple 'getting to know you' especially for the mysterious Clara, to the uninspiring dullness of 'Am I a good man' right through to the Meh-arama of Trenzalore and the most pointless cramming in of a character in the form of 'Me' I say character but as with this showrunner they are arc ideas rather than relatable people. Danny Pink and splinter Clara anyone?
Again this is just personal conjecture. The 'new approach to keep things fresh' each series has done everything but keep the show fresh. It has stagnated it.
I agree. It does seem he has had no clear vision to what he has wanted the show to be. Take Capaldi's era so far. What, from his first series, has carried over as a character arc? What is it the public will remember his era for? He is no longer as Scottish. Thats about it. Remember how proud the show was that Capaldi was keeping his Scottish accent. That was dropped like a stone after his first series. Now we have a Tom Baker impression. If series 10 is to be Capaldi's last. What is it his era will be remembered for? I can't see it being for a great series arc conclusion/final episode. Am I a good man? Sonic Shades? There isn't a lot to go on thinking about it, character or arc wise. That is down to the showrunners lack of direction from series to series.
The new colourful Daleks, dropped. The fairytale vibe of series 5, dropped. The boxset binge approach of series 6, dropped. The film of the week episodes, dropped. More two parters in a series, dropped.
They say familiarity breeds contempt. I think this show runners era from series 6 onwards has turned that phrase on it's head.”
“I have to agree. I'm not sure why Mr. Moffat seems to think that each series of the show under his watch must be something new. A new tone, a new structure and so on. Fairytale, arc heavy, film of the week, more two parters. Rather than building a famiar era with a tonal narrative that spans multiple series we have had 5 different series each, imo, putting the breaks on getting to know the show and characters under his guidance. Imo, his arcs after series 5 have severely hampered the show. From pretty much all character development that comes naturally via plain old simple 'getting to know you' especially for the mysterious Clara, to the uninspiring dullness of 'Am I a good man' right through to the Meh-arama of Trenzalore and the most pointless cramming in of a character in the form of 'Me' I say character but as with this showrunner they are arc ideas rather than relatable people. Danny Pink and splinter Clara anyone?
Again this is just personal conjecture. The 'new approach to keep things fresh' each series has done everything but keep the show fresh. It has stagnated it.
I agree. It does seem he has had no clear vision to what he has wanted the show to be. Take Capaldi's era so far. What, from his first series, has carried over as a character arc? What is it the public will remember his era for? He is no longer as Scottish. Thats about it. Remember how proud the show was that Capaldi was keeping his Scottish accent. That was dropped like a stone after his first series. Now we have a Tom Baker impression. If series 10 is to be Capaldi's last. What is it his era will be remembered for? I can't see it being for a great series arc conclusion/final episode. Am I a good man? Sonic Shades? There isn't a lot to go on thinking about it, character or arc wise. That is down to the showrunners lack of direction from series to series.
The new colourful Daleks, dropped. The fairytale vibe of series 5, dropped. The boxset binge approach of series 6, dropped. The film of the week episodes, dropped. More two parters in a series, dropped.
They say familiarity breeds contempt. I think this show runners era from series 6 onwards has turned that phrase on it's head.”
Agree with all this, you get the feeling he has been planning S5 for a while and right from the offset he set up his era and showed how it differed from RTD. Whether you liked it or not, you could see the direction. S6 i felt continued on from this, it was darker in tone but the elements of the era he set up in S5 were still there and the plots.
I felt it started going wrong directionally on S7, right from the beginning you could tell Moffat wanted to change to this mysterious approach, very episodic approach and tonally changed again. Then by S8 he realised Clara needs to have an actual character and with Capaldi he definitely wanted him to be this dark Doctor. Then in S9 and the 2 christmas specials he changed Capaldi from a dark Doctor to this weird Matt Smith hybrid. He keeps changing how he wants the show to be under Capaldi and directionally it makes the show seem lost at times.
I think season 5 is basically what Moffat would have delivered if he had been chosen (ahead of RTD) to bring Doctor Who back to TV in 2005. I think that's why it felt like something of a reboot, and why Moffat himself talked about it as being 'season 1' rather than 'season 5'. But I can't help but feel he put too much into season 5 and since then it's been a cycle of diminishing returns.
For me the problem is that Moffat is very story-driven where as RTD is much more character-driven. I think that's why the show maintained its success during the first five years so strongly - even if individual episodes weren't that good, you always had a terrific Doctor and very likeable companion.
Moffat relies much more on people being drawn in by his mysteries and story arcs. But when you have an unlikeable Doctor (12) and dislikable companion (Clara) and overly complex storylines, it pretty much a perfect storm of boredom. I can see why 1.25m viewers turned off after season 8.
I think Bill is going to be incredibly important for the success of season 10. She seems a very bubbly, likeable character and one thing I will say about Moffat is that his comedy writing is very good. If he steers more towards a funny companion with a comic relationship with the Doctor, he could still pull it out of the bag for his final season.
For me the problem is that Moffat is very story-driven where as RTD is much more character-driven. I think that's why the show maintained its success during the first five years so strongly - even if individual episodes weren't that good, you always had a terrific Doctor and very likeable companion.
Moffat relies much more on people being drawn in by his mysteries and story arcs. But when you have an unlikeable Doctor (12) and dislikable companion (Clara) and overly complex storylines, it pretty much a perfect storm of boredom. I can see why 1.25m viewers turned off after season 8.
I think Bill is going to be incredibly important for the success of season 10. She seems a very bubbly, likeable character and one thing I will say about Moffat is that his comedy writing is very good. If he steers more towards a funny companion with a comic relationship with the Doctor, he could still pull it out of the bag for his final season.
Originally Posted by Mulett:
“I think season 5 is basically what Moffat would have delivered if he had been chosen (ahead of RTD) to bring Doctor Who back to TV in 2005. I think that's why it felt like something of a reboot, and why Moffat himself talked about it as being 'season 1' rather than 'season 5'. But I can't help but feel he put too much into season 5 and since then it's been a cycle of diminishing returns.
For me the problem is that Moffat is very story-driven where as RTD is much more character-driven. I think that's why the show maintained its success during the first five years so strongly - even if individual episodes weren't that good, you always had a terrific Doctor and very likeable companion.
Moffat relies much more on people being drawn in by his mysteries and story arcs. But when you have an unlikeable Doctor (12) and dislikable companion (Clara) and overly complex storylines, it pretty much a perfect storm of boredom. I can see why 1.25m viewers turned off after season 8.
I think Bill is going to be incredibly important for the success of season 10. She seems a very bubbly, likeable character and one thing I will say about Moffat is that his comedy writing is very good. If he steers more towards a funny companion with a comic relationship with the Doctor, he could still pull it out of the bag for his final season.”
“I think season 5 is basically what Moffat would have delivered if he had been chosen (ahead of RTD) to bring Doctor Who back to TV in 2005. I think that's why it felt like something of a reboot, and why Moffat himself talked about it as being 'season 1' rather than 'season 5'. But I can't help but feel he put too much into season 5 and since then it's been a cycle of diminishing returns.
For me the problem is that Moffat is very story-driven where as RTD is much more character-driven. I think that's why the show maintained its success during the first five years so strongly - even if individual episodes weren't that good, you always had a terrific Doctor and very likeable companion.
Moffat relies much more on people being drawn in by his mysteries and story arcs. But when you have an unlikeable Doctor (12) and dislikable companion (Clara) and overly complex storylines, it pretty much a perfect storm of boredom. I can see why 1.25m viewers turned off after season 8.
I think Bill is going to be incredibly important for the success of season 10. She seems a very bubbly, likeable character and one thing I will say about Moffat is that his comedy writing is very good. If he steers more towards a funny companion with a comic relationship with the Doctor, he could still pull it out of the bag for his final season.”
Which, in my opinion, would be catastrophic for the show as a "drama" series. i don't get this obsession with being funny, gag after gag, quip after quip, bang-bang-bang...it's tiresome and utterly undermines the drama. We're not far away from the show being described as a "fun sci-fi spoof" again as it was in the UK press during the McCoy years. Wit, please, not gags.
I've lost interest. Skipped the christmas episode and can't even be bothered with the new series later on.
Peter Capaldi's doctor is boring and this is coming from someone who was excited by his casting. The character he played in Torchwood was much more interesting and dynamic.
David Tennant was based. I don't think anyone will top his doctor.
Peter Capaldi's doctor is boring and this is coming from someone who was excited by his casting. The character he played in Torchwood was much more interesting and dynamic.
David Tennant was based. I don't think anyone will top his doctor.
Originally Posted by Paul_Mount:
“Which, in my opinion, would be catastrophic for the show as a "drama" series. i don't get this obsession with being funny, gag after gag, quip after quip, bang-bang-bang...it's tiresome and utterly undermines the drama. We're not far away from the show being described as a "fun sci-fi spoof" again as it was in the UK press during the McCoy years. Wit, please, not gags.”
“Which, in my opinion, would be catastrophic for the show as a "drama" series. i don't get this obsession with being funny, gag after gag, quip after quip, bang-bang-bang...it's tiresome and utterly undermines the drama. We're not far away from the show being described as a "fun sci-fi spoof" again as it was in the UK press during the McCoy years. Wit, please, not gags.”
I don't think anyone has suggested the show has gag after gag. But it certainly needs more of a balance between light and dark. The problem I had with seasons 8 and 9 was the lack of comedy. The stories, overwhelmingly, were dark and serious and it all ended up being very grey. By the time they finally bumped off Clara, I couldn't have cared less.
The few comedy moments we had in season 8 (in particular) were horrible missteps. The Doctor cracking jokes about other characters dying - just not funny.
By comparison, season 4 (as an example) was peppered with some great comedy throughout and this helped make those dramatic moments more impactful. The loss of Donna's memory in the season finale was genuinely heartbreaking.
Originally Posted by Hetal:
“I've lost interest. Skipped the christmas episode and can't even be bothered with the new series later on.
Peter Capaldi's doctor is boring and this is coming from someone who was excited by his casting. The character he played in Torchwood was much more interesting and dynamic.
David Tennant was based. I don't think anyone will top his doctor.”
“I've lost interest. Skipped the christmas episode and can't even be bothered with the new series later on.
Peter Capaldi's doctor is boring and this is coming from someone who was excited by his casting. The character he played in Torchwood was much more interesting and dynamic.
David Tennant was based. I don't think anyone will top his doctor.”
I'm very confident somebody will. People probably said that of Tom Baker before David Tennant came along.
Personally, I rate both Smith and Capaldi higher than Tennant, but I do recognize that Tennant had the widest popular appeal, at least in Britain.
Originally Posted by Thamwet:
“I'm very confident somebody will. People probably said that of Tom Baker before David Tennant came along.
Personally, I rate both Smith and Capaldi higher than Tennant, but I do recognize that Tennant had the widest popular appeal, at least in Britain.”
“I'm very confident somebody will. People probably said that of Tom Baker before David Tennant came along.
Personally, I rate both Smith and Capaldi higher than Tennant, but I do recognize that Tennant had the widest popular appeal, at least in Britain.”
And the US!
Originally Posted by Paul_Mount:
“Which, in my opinion, would be catastrophic for the show as a "drama" series. i don't get this obsession with being funny, gag after gag, quip after quip, bang-bang-bang...it's tiresome and utterly undermines the drama. We're not far away from the show being described as a "fun sci-fi spoof" again as it was in the UK press during the McCoy years. Wit, please, not gags.”
“Which, in my opinion, would be catastrophic for the show as a "drama" series. i don't get this obsession with being funny, gag after gag, quip after quip, bang-bang-bang...it's tiresome and utterly undermines the drama. We're not far away from the show being described as a "fun sci-fi spoof" again as it was in the UK press during the McCoy years. Wit, please, not gags.”
Sounds like you're talking about S4 where they LITERALLY did slapstick for goodness sake. Most critics of the show now would say its too dour, not too comedic. Can you show me which episode of S9 was gag after gag and quip after quip? Did you see Heaven Sent. Go and watch it again and then watch Partners in Crime and its obvious which is a 'fun sci-fi spoof'.
'I AINT MATING WITH YOUUUUUUU SUNSHINNNNNNNNE' *GURN GURN GURN*
'OI WATCH IT SPACEMAN'
'BACK OF THE NECK'
Oh look. Its that hilarious gag about how everyone mistakes them for a married couple. Again. In another episode. Hooray.
ACTUAL Mime gags that the Chuckebrothers would be proud of!
Are people actually still watching the show or are we now at the point where we bypass that entirely and straight to the forums?
Originally Posted by Mulett:
“I don't think anyone has suggested the show has gag after gag. But it certainly needs more of a balance between light and dark. The problem I had with seasons 8 and 9 was the lack of comedy. The stories, overwhelmingly, were dark and serious and it all ended up being very grey. By the time they finally bumped off Clara, I couldn't have cared less.
The few comedy moments we had in season 8 (in particular) were horrible missteps. The Doctor cracking jokes about other characters dying - just not funny.
By comparison, season 4 (as an example) was peppered with some great comedy throughout and this helped make those dramatic moments more impactful. The loss of Donna's memory in the season finale was genuinely heartbreaking.”
“I don't think anyone has suggested the show has gag after gag. But it certainly needs more of a balance between light and dark. The problem I had with seasons 8 and 9 was the lack of comedy. The stories, overwhelmingly, were dark and serious and it all ended up being very grey. By the time they finally bumped off Clara, I couldn't have cared less.
The few comedy moments we had in season 8 (in particular) were horrible missteps. The Doctor cracking jokes about other characters dying - just not funny.
By comparison, season 4 (as an example) was peppered with some great comedy throughout and this helped make those dramatic moments more impactful. The loss of Donna's memory in the season finale was genuinely heartbreaking.”
I often got to the point where I wondered if Series 4 actually was a comedy. Like Series 2, it just seemed constantly in a hurry to fumble to the next cheesy joke or slapstick comedic cue, to the point where when it actually tried to be a little more dramatic and serious it just felt awkwardly jammed in. Ironically it was when the series was at its darkest (the library two-parter, Midnight, Waters of Mars) that I feel it worked best, and to me that applies to Doctor Who in general: it works better when it's not afraid to be dark and scary, but still not afraid to embrace the goofiness of it all. Genesis of the Daleks, The Deadly Assassin, Inferno, The Caves of Androzani, Heaven Sent, The Waters of Mars, Listen, etc. I want Doctor Who to be a bit of fun, but I want it to engage me and show the scary side of the universe too.
I don't think Series 8 or 9 have lacked any humour at all, it's just been a little more dry and ironic than slapstick (particularly coming from Capaldi) and a little more sparing. It's no bad thing to have a little moderation in humour, however.
I think 2 and 4 both got the balance of comedy/drama just right. I think that's why they carry such an emotional punch when things got serious, Whether you consider the comedy witty or slapstick, the end result was a popular and well-liked show (and cast). I would struggle to say the same of seasons 8 and 9.
There's an unrelentingly negative feel about this forum in general and this thread in particular. But is Doctor Who really in such bad shape? Is it really losing people's interest?
To answer the question posed in the thread, clearly, a small minority of people are losing interest, as viewing figures are down. But they aren't down by that much, and the decline, such as it is, is unsurprising and unremarkable given a). At least one new episode of Doctor Who has been shown on BBC One for twelve consecutive calendar years - casual viewers will naturally tire of a long-running show, and b): Viewing figures have generally been down across the board. And unlike some shows, critical reviews of Doctor Who have been mainly positive, with series 9 especially attracting glowing reviews.
So is there really a serious problem? I have to admit, I just can't see it. I appreciate that some people don't like the current era, which is fine. I'm not a cheerleader for Moffat, I do think he struggles to write convincing dialogue and sometimes is more concerned with being clever than connecting with his audience.
Yet that doesn't mean that people, per se, are switching off Doctor Who, or that there is a serious decline which is all to do with Peter Capaldi's portrayal of the Doctor or Moffat's writing. It seems to me that some people here are simply projecting their own personal dislike of the current era onto the falling viewing figures and concluding that people are losing interest in Doctor Who because it's "not as good as it used to be when it was really popular".
Anyone can play that game. From my subjective memories and experiences, Doctor Who has always garnered good reviews, from the RTD years through to the present, and has always attracted a loyal and sizeable fan-base: nothing has changed. On the flip side I don't believe that Doctor Who has ever had mass appeal since it returned. I can't remember the David Tennant era being so popular that everyone at work or at home was talking about - quite the reverse: it was still Doctor Who, a reasonably popular but still slightly geeky sci-fi show. Most of my work colleagues were talking about X Factor or other reality TV shows and dramas, but I can't remember any talking about Doctor Who on Monday morning. So again, nothing has substantially changed, as that remains true today.
That's just my own experience, of course. But until I see hard evidence that is incontrovertible in the shape of plummeting viewing figures and terrible reviews, I refuse to believe that Doctor Who is in bad shape or that people are turning off in their droves.
To answer the question posed in the thread, clearly, a small minority of people are losing interest, as viewing figures are down. But they aren't down by that much, and the decline, such as it is, is unsurprising and unremarkable given a). At least one new episode of Doctor Who has been shown on BBC One for twelve consecutive calendar years - casual viewers will naturally tire of a long-running show, and b): Viewing figures have generally been down across the board. And unlike some shows, critical reviews of Doctor Who have been mainly positive, with series 9 especially attracting glowing reviews.
So is there really a serious problem? I have to admit, I just can't see it. I appreciate that some people don't like the current era, which is fine. I'm not a cheerleader for Moffat, I do think he struggles to write convincing dialogue and sometimes is more concerned with being clever than connecting with his audience.
Yet that doesn't mean that people, per se, are switching off Doctor Who, or that there is a serious decline which is all to do with Peter Capaldi's portrayal of the Doctor or Moffat's writing. It seems to me that some people here are simply projecting their own personal dislike of the current era onto the falling viewing figures and concluding that people are losing interest in Doctor Who because it's "not as good as it used to be when it was really popular".
Anyone can play that game. From my subjective memories and experiences, Doctor Who has always garnered good reviews, from the RTD years through to the present, and has always attracted a loyal and sizeable fan-base: nothing has changed. On the flip side I don't believe that Doctor Who has ever had mass appeal since it returned. I can't remember the David Tennant era being so popular that everyone at work or at home was talking about - quite the reverse: it was still Doctor Who, a reasonably popular but still slightly geeky sci-fi show. Most of my work colleagues were talking about X Factor or other reality TV shows and dramas, but I can't remember any talking about Doctor Who on Monday morning. So again, nothing has substantially changed, as that remains true today.
That's just my own experience, of course. But until I see hard evidence that is incontrovertible in the shape of plummeting viewing figures and terrible reviews, I refuse to believe that Doctor Who is in bad shape or that people are turning off in their droves.
Originally Posted by saladfingers81:
“Sounds like you're talking about S4 where they LITERALLY did slapstick for goodness sake. Most critics of the show now would say its too dour, not too comedic. Can you show me which episode of S9 was gag after gag and quip after quip? Did you see Heaven Sent. Go and watch it again and then watch Partners in Crime and its obvious which is a 'fun sci-fi spoof'.
'I AINT MATING WITH YOUUUUUUU SUNSHINNNNNNNNE' *GURN GURN GURN*
'OI WATCH IT SPACEMAN'
'BACK OF THE NECK'
Oh look. Its that hilarious gag about how everyone mistakes them for a married couple. Again. In another episode. Hooray.
ACTUAL Mime gags that the Chuckebrothers would be proud of!
Are people actually still watching the show or are we now at the point where we bypass that entirely and straight to the forums?”
“Sounds like you're talking about S4 where they LITERALLY did slapstick for goodness sake. Most critics of the show now would say its too dour, not too comedic. Can you show me which episode of S9 was gag after gag and quip after quip? Did you see Heaven Sent. Go and watch it again and then watch Partners in Crime and its obvious which is a 'fun sci-fi spoof'.
'I AINT MATING WITH YOUUUUUUU SUNSHINNNNNNNNE' *GURN GURN GURN*
'OI WATCH IT SPACEMAN'
'BACK OF THE NECK'
Oh look. Its that hilarious gag about how everyone mistakes them for a married couple. Again. In another episode. Hooray.
ACTUAL Mime gags that the Chuckebrothers would be proud of!
Are people actually still watching the show or are we now at the point where we bypass that entirely and straight to the forums?”
The GURN GURN GURN bit betrays your agenda. RTD's episodes were witty - occasionally slapstick - but never full of characters who just traded wise ass quips at one another, a la the Doctor and Clara, the Doctor and Amy... Don't ask me to watch 'Heaven Sent' again; I'd rather watch an episode that resembles Doctor Who and isn't a) just written because the writer can't be bothered creating believable new characters for the hero to interact with and b) utterly absurd - and yet blind-sided 'fans' squee and howl at his 'genius' in breaking new storytelling ground blah de blah... Yeah, Moffat, break some new storytelling ground; tell us a story....
Originally Posted by mikey1980:
“There's an unrelentingly negative feel about this forum in general and this thread in particular. But is Doctor Who really in such bad shape? Is it really losing people's interest?
To answer the question posed in the thread, clearly, a small minority of people are losing interest, as viewing figures are down. But they aren't down by that much, and the decline, such as it is, is unsurprising and unremarkable given a). At least one new episode of Doctor Who has been shown on BBC One for twelve consecutive calendar years - casual viewers will naturally tire of a long-running show, and b): Viewing figures have generally been down across the board. And unlike some shows, critical reviews of Doctor Who have been mainly positive, with series 9 especially attracting glowing reviews.
So is there really a serious problem? I have to admit, I just can't see it. I appreciate that some people don't like the current era, which is fine. I'm not a cheerleader for Moffat, I do think he struggles to write convincing dialogue and sometimes is more concerned with being clever than connecting with his audience.
Yet that doesn't mean that people, per se, are switching off Doctor Who, or that there is a serious decline which is all to do with Peter Capaldi's portrayal of the Doctor or Moffat's writing. It seems to me that some people here are simply projecting their own personal dislike of the current era onto the falling viewing figures and concluding that people are losing interest in Doctor Who because it's "not as good as it used to be when it was really popular".
Anyone can play that game. From my subjective memories and experiences, Doctor Who has always garnered good reviews, from the RTD years through to the present, and has always attracted a loyal and sizeable fan-base: nothing has changed. On the flip side I don't believe that Doctor Who has ever had mass appeal since it returned. I can't remember the David Tennant era being so popular that everyone at work or at home was talking about - quite the reverse: it was still Doctor Who, a reasonably popular but still slightly geeky sci-fi show. Most of my work colleagues were talking about X Factor or other reality TV shows and dramas, but I can't remember any talking about Doctor Who on Monday morning. So again, nothing has substantially changed, as that remains true today.
That's just my own experience, of course. But until I see hard evidence that is incontrovertible in the shape of plummeting viewing figures and terrible reviews, I refuse to believe that Doctor Who is in bad shape or that people are turning off in their droves.”
“There's an unrelentingly negative feel about this forum in general and this thread in particular. But is Doctor Who really in such bad shape? Is it really losing people's interest?
To answer the question posed in the thread, clearly, a small minority of people are losing interest, as viewing figures are down. But they aren't down by that much, and the decline, such as it is, is unsurprising and unremarkable given a). At least one new episode of Doctor Who has been shown on BBC One for twelve consecutive calendar years - casual viewers will naturally tire of a long-running show, and b): Viewing figures have generally been down across the board. And unlike some shows, critical reviews of Doctor Who have been mainly positive, with series 9 especially attracting glowing reviews.
So is there really a serious problem? I have to admit, I just can't see it. I appreciate that some people don't like the current era, which is fine. I'm not a cheerleader for Moffat, I do think he struggles to write convincing dialogue and sometimes is more concerned with being clever than connecting with his audience.
Yet that doesn't mean that people, per se, are switching off Doctor Who, or that there is a serious decline which is all to do with Peter Capaldi's portrayal of the Doctor or Moffat's writing. It seems to me that some people here are simply projecting their own personal dislike of the current era onto the falling viewing figures and concluding that people are losing interest in Doctor Who because it's "not as good as it used to be when it was really popular".
Anyone can play that game. From my subjective memories and experiences, Doctor Who has always garnered good reviews, from the RTD years through to the present, and has always attracted a loyal and sizeable fan-base: nothing has changed. On the flip side I don't believe that Doctor Who has ever had mass appeal since it returned. I can't remember the David Tennant era being so popular that everyone at work or at home was talking about - quite the reverse: it was still Doctor Who, a reasonably popular but still slightly geeky sci-fi show. Most of my work colleagues were talking about X Factor or other reality TV shows and dramas, but I can't remember any talking about Doctor Who on Monday morning. So again, nothing has substantially changed, as that remains true today.
That's just my own experience, of course. But until I see hard evidence that is incontrovertible in the shape of plummeting viewing figures and terrible reviews, I refuse to believe that Doctor Who is in bad shape or that people are turning off in their droves.”
Remember to take your head out of the sand now and again. Oh, and your fingers out of your ears. And stop going 'la la la, not listening' when people are pointing out FACTS to you...
Originally Posted by Paul_Mount:
“The GURN GURN GURN bit your agenda. RTD's episodes were witty - occasionally slapstick - but never full of characters who just traded wise ass quips at one another, a la the Doctor and Clara, the Doctor and Amy... Don't ask me to watch 'Heaven Sent' again; I'd rather watch an episode that resembles Doctor Who and isn't a) just written because the writer can't be bothered creating believable new characters for the hero to interact with and b) utterly absurd - and yet blind-sided 'fans' squee and howl at his 'genius' in breaking new storytelling ground blah de blah... Yeah, Moffat, break some new storytelling ground; tell us a story....”
“The GURN GURN GURN bit your agenda. RTD's episodes were witty - occasionally slapstick - but never full of characters who just traded wise ass quips at one another, a la the Doctor and Clara, the Doctor and Amy... Don't ask me to watch 'Heaven Sent' again; I'd rather watch an episode that resembles Doctor Who and isn't a) just written because the writer can't be bothered creating believable new characters for the hero to interact with and b) utterly absurd - and yet blind-sided 'fans' squee and howl at his 'genius' in breaking new storytelling ground blah de blah... Yeah, Moffat, break some new storytelling ground; tell us a story....”
I'm sorry. Feel free to hate the episode but to claim that the sole reason for writing a 'single hander' episode is because the writer is too lazy to create characters is utterly absurd. I am sure Alan Bennett will be most upset to learn that so much of his career was little more than an excuse to put his authorly feet up and slack off while the awards and plaudits rolled in.
Oh and those of us who liked, nay LOVED, Heaven Sent werent any more blindsinded into liking it than those of you who actually find Donna Noble funny were somehow suffering some delusion when they enjoyed her exploits. It's called a difference of opinion.
What is this obsession among the more fervent anti-Moffat fans that they seem to think everyone who enjoys his work is living under some collective delusion and it is only they who have had the blind fold lifted from their eyes and seen the light. And now they have to share it with us. Again. And again. Simply not the case. Everyone likes different things and that is that. Now I would not tae the absurd position that all culture is relative and holds similar merit. This is patent nonsense. Take Me Out is not comparable to the works of Ingmar Bergman. One is high art , the other is some pretentious swedish black and white nonsense (ba-doom-tish). But with DW I think its all much of a muchness. Its all pretty damn good and even when its bad its pretty good compared to most things. I can dislike an episode like Partners in Crime quite fervently whilst also recognising while it is good and others appreciate it. I don't feel the need to trash it, the writer and anyone who enjoys it just because its not for me, It's a well made episode of DW.
It's the extremism that gets me. Just glance at the Sherlock thread. I dunno how he does it but Moffat really seems to wind up a certain type of person just by doing his job. Funny really.
Originally Posted by Paul_Mount:
“Remember to take your head out of the sand now and again. Oh, and your fingers out of your ears. And stop going 'la la la, not listening' when people are pointing out FACTS to you...”
“Remember to take your head out of the sand now and again. Oh, and your fingers out of your ears. And stop going 'la la la, not listening' when people are pointing out FACTS to you...”
You seem to be mistaking yourself for a scientist. You are posting your opinions on a TV show in an internet forum. This is not the Oxford Union. You havent just completed a thesis. Everything you have said is a mix of opinion, conjecture, pondering and even more opinions with a big side serving of bias thrown in. And this is the case for ALL of us.
Originally Posted by mikey1980:
“There's an unrelentingly negative feel about this forum in general and this thread in particular. But is Doctor Who really in such bad shape? Is it really losing people's interest?
To answer the question posed in the thread, clearly, a small minority of people are losing interest, as viewing figures are down. But they aren't down by that much, and the decline, such as it is, is unsurprising and unremarkable given a). At least one new episode of Doctor Who has been shown on BBC One for twelve consecutive calendar years - casual viewers will naturally tire of a long-running show, and b): Viewing figures have generally been down across the board. And unlike some shows, critical reviews of Doctor Who have been mainly positive, with series 9 especially attracting glowing reviews.
So is there really a serious problem? I have to admit, I just can't see it. I appreciate that some people don't like the current era, which is fine. I'm not a cheerleader for Moffat, I do think he struggles to write convincing dialogue and sometimes is more concerned with being clever than connecting with his audience.
Yet that doesn't mean that people, per se, are switching off Doctor Who, or that there is a serious decline which is all to do with Peter Capaldi's portrayal of the Doctor or Moffat's writing. It seems to me that some people here are simply projecting their own personal dislike of the current era onto the falling viewing figures and concluding that people are losing interest in Doctor Who because it's "not as good as it used to be when it was really popular".
Anyone can play that game. From my subjective memories and experiences, Doctor Who has always garnered good reviews, from the RTD years through to the present, and has always attracted a loyal and sizeable fan-base: nothing has changed. On the flip side I don't believe that Doctor Who has ever had mass appeal since it returned. I can't remember the David Tennant era being so popular that everyone at work or at home was talking about - quite the reverse: it was still Doctor Who, a reasonably popular but still slightly geeky sci-fi show. Most of my work colleagues were talking about X Factor or other reality TV shows and dramas, but I can't remember any talking about Doctor Who on Monday morning. So again, nothing has substantially changed, as that remains true today.
That's just my own experience, of course. But until I see hard evidence that is incontrovertible in the shape of plummeting viewing figures and terrible reviews, I refuse to believe that Doctor Who is in bad shape or that people are turning off in their droves.”
“There's an unrelentingly negative feel about this forum in general and this thread in particular. But is Doctor Who really in such bad shape? Is it really losing people's interest?
To answer the question posed in the thread, clearly, a small minority of people are losing interest, as viewing figures are down. But they aren't down by that much, and the decline, such as it is, is unsurprising and unremarkable given a). At least one new episode of Doctor Who has been shown on BBC One for twelve consecutive calendar years - casual viewers will naturally tire of a long-running show, and b): Viewing figures have generally been down across the board. And unlike some shows, critical reviews of Doctor Who have been mainly positive, with series 9 especially attracting glowing reviews.
So is there really a serious problem? I have to admit, I just can't see it. I appreciate that some people don't like the current era, which is fine. I'm not a cheerleader for Moffat, I do think he struggles to write convincing dialogue and sometimes is more concerned with being clever than connecting with his audience.
Yet that doesn't mean that people, per se, are switching off Doctor Who, or that there is a serious decline which is all to do with Peter Capaldi's portrayal of the Doctor or Moffat's writing. It seems to me that some people here are simply projecting their own personal dislike of the current era onto the falling viewing figures and concluding that people are losing interest in Doctor Who because it's "not as good as it used to be when it was really popular".
Anyone can play that game. From my subjective memories and experiences, Doctor Who has always garnered good reviews, from the RTD years through to the present, and has always attracted a loyal and sizeable fan-base: nothing has changed. On the flip side I don't believe that Doctor Who has ever had mass appeal since it returned. I can't remember the David Tennant era being so popular that everyone at work or at home was talking about - quite the reverse: it was still Doctor Who, a reasonably popular but still slightly geeky sci-fi show. Most of my work colleagues were talking about X Factor or other reality TV shows and dramas, but I can't remember any talking about Doctor Who on Monday morning. So again, nothing has substantially changed, as that remains true today.
That's just my own experience, of course. But until I see hard evidence that is incontrovertible in the shape of plummeting viewing figures and terrible reviews, I refuse to believe that Doctor Who is in bad shape or that people are turning off in their droves.”
Well, at the risk of being dismissed as a 'squeeing' so called 'fan', (Well, I do personally think 'Heaven Sent' was superb) I agree with a lot of that! (although there was a fair degree of 'Tennant-mania going on back in the day. Mainly around the time of his 3rd series and to a degree the specials...he was even on the Christmas ident in 2009!)
'...Mysterio' performed perfectly well (comfortably third most watched drama of the festive season, behind CTM and Sherlock) and it's only Series 9 that saw a noticeable drop in viewers; I've read Series 8 being mentioned in this area re: viewing figures, but it actually did perfectly well. Hell, in the grand scheme of things UK ratings wise, Series 9 wasn't a flamin' *disaster* or anything either!
Said before and will say it again; we will see, quite soon, whether it was a 'blip' or not when Series 10 airs. So I'm not just 'jumping in' cos I generally like the Moffat era and being all defensive. (RTD fans can do that too, of course when 'their era' is being criticised. Me, I've enjoyed most of C21 Who to a greater or lesser degree....)
However there are some facts, if you want them.
8th most watched show on TV this Christmas
Highest individual ratings for an episode in 2 years.
Massive figures for BBC America
'Such a big deal has Doctor Who become that its Christmas special got a gala launch at the National Film Theatre...If Dickens effectively invented the British Christmas, it is Moffat who has perfected the Doctor Who story...It’s warming to see Lucas enjoying himself so much, and an incidental pleasure of Peter Capaldi’s performance is the sense, an accident of physique and background, that the Doctor has retained pieces of DNA from his regenerations: the frame of Matt Smith, the accent of David Tennant, and, as his hair whitens, the coif of Jon Pertwee, all added to the haunted pain that is Capaldi’s own contribution....This special (the first sight of the Doctor since this time last year) confirms that the Doctor is now as much a part of mid-winter tradition as all the other figures from whom Moffat borrows.'
Mark Lawson- The Guardian
'the happiest, most heroic Christmas special in years...Wonderfully witty, just festive enough and perfectly pitched between spills, thrills and scares, this was the time-travelling franchise’s best and most family-friendly Christmas special for five years....5 stars'
The Telegraph
'The Return Of Doctor Mysterio is now the twelfth modern Doctor Who Christmas special, and a very confident, enjoyable and often very funny one. It’s, simply, a lot of fun, with some added sprinkles on top for comic book nerds. I still regard The Christmas Invasion – the first revived Who Yuletide adventure – as the highpoint of the December 25th episodes, but I like this one a lot too.
Den of Geek
“The Return of Doctor Mysterio” was a fast-paced, fun and funny romp that just made me wish that the upcoming season of Doctor Who were coming up a lot sooner!
The Mary Sue
I could go on...
(EDIT- Obviously the reviews are opinions and not fact. But they show further example that many people are enjoying the show just as much as they ever did)
8th most watched show on TV this Christmas
Highest individual ratings for an episode in 2 years.
Massive figures for BBC America
'Such a big deal has Doctor Who become that its Christmas special got a gala launch at the National Film Theatre...If Dickens effectively invented the British Christmas, it is Moffat who has perfected the Doctor Who story...It’s warming to see Lucas enjoying himself so much, and an incidental pleasure of Peter Capaldi’s performance is the sense, an accident of physique and background, that the Doctor has retained pieces of DNA from his regenerations: the frame of Matt Smith, the accent of David Tennant, and, as his hair whitens, the coif of Jon Pertwee, all added to the haunted pain that is Capaldi’s own contribution....This special (the first sight of the Doctor since this time last year) confirms that the Doctor is now as much a part of mid-winter tradition as all the other figures from whom Moffat borrows.'
Mark Lawson- The Guardian
'the happiest, most heroic Christmas special in years...Wonderfully witty, just festive enough and perfectly pitched between spills, thrills and scares, this was the time-travelling franchise’s best and most family-friendly Christmas special for five years....5 stars'
The Telegraph
'The Return Of Doctor Mysterio is now the twelfth modern Doctor Who Christmas special, and a very confident, enjoyable and often very funny one. It’s, simply, a lot of fun, with some added sprinkles on top for comic book nerds. I still regard The Christmas Invasion – the first revived Who Yuletide adventure – as the highpoint of the December 25th episodes, but I like this one a lot too.
Den of Geek
“The Return of Doctor Mysterio” was a fast-paced, fun and funny romp that just made me wish that the upcoming season of Doctor Who were coming up a lot sooner!
The Mary Sue
I could go on...
(EDIT- Obviously the reviews are opinions and not fact. But they show further example that many people are enjoying the show just as much as they ever did)
Originally Posted by mikey1980:
“There's an unrelentingly negative feel about this forum in general and this thread in particular. But is Doctor Who really in such bad shape? Is it really losing people's interest?
To answer the question posed in the thread, clearly, a small minority of people are losing interest, as viewing figures are down. But they aren't down by that much, and the decline, such as it is, is unsurprising and unremarkable given a). At least one new episode of Doctor Who has been shown on BBC One for twelve consecutive calendar years - casual viewers will naturally tire of a long-running show, and b): Viewing figures have generally been down across the board. And unlike some shows, critical reviews of Doctor Who have been mainly positive, with series 9 especially attracting glowing reviews.
So is there really a serious problem? I have to admit, I just can't see it. I appreciate that some people don't like the current era, which is fine. I'm not a cheerleader for Moffat, I do think he struggles to write convincing dialogue and sometimes is more concerned with being clever than connecting with his audience.
Yet that doesn't mean that people, per se, are switching off Doctor Who, or that there is a serious decline which is all to do with Peter Capaldi's portrayal of the Doctor or Moffat's writing. It seems to me that some people here are simply projecting their own personal dislike of the current era onto the falling viewing figures and concluding that people are losing interest in Doctor Who because it's "not as good as it used to be when it was really popular".
Anyone can play that game. From my subjective memories and experiences, Doctor Who has always garnered good reviews, from the RTD years through to the present, and has always attracted a loyal and sizeable fan-base: nothing has changed. On the flip side I don't believe that Doctor Who has ever had mass appeal since it returned. I can't remember the David Tennant era being so popular that everyone at work or at home was talking about - quite the reverse: it was still Doctor Who, a reasonably popular but still slightly geeky sci-fi show. Most of my work colleagues were talking about X Factor or other reality TV shows and dramas, but I can't remember any talking about Doctor Who on Monday morning. So again, nothing has substantially changed, as that remains true today.
That's just my own experience, of course. But until I see hard evidence that is incontrovertible in the shape of plummeting viewing figures and terrible reviews, I refuse to believe that Doctor Who is in bad shape or that people are turning off in their droves.”
“There's an unrelentingly negative feel about this forum in general and this thread in particular. But is Doctor Who really in such bad shape? Is it really losing people's interest?
To answer the question posed in the thread, clearly, a small minority of people are losing interest, as viewing figures are down. But they aren't down by that much, and the decline, such as it is, is unsurprising and unremarkable given a). At least one new episode of Doctor Who has been shown on BBC One for twelve consecutive calendar years - casual viewers will naturally tire of a long-running show, and b): Viewing figures have generally been down across the board. And unlike some shows, critical reviews of Doctor Who have been mainly positive, with series 9 especially attracting glowing reviews.
So is there really a serious problem? I have to admit, I just can't see it. I appreciate that some people don't like the current era, which is fine. I'm not a cheerleader for Moffat, I do think he struggles to write convincing dialogue and sometimes is more concerned with being clever than connecting with his audience.
Yet that doesn't mean that people, per se, are switching off Doctor Who, or that there is a serious decline which is all to do with Peter Capaldi's portrayal of the Doctor or Moffat's writing. It seems to me that some people here are simply projecting their own personal dislike of the current era onto the falling viewing figures and concluding that people are losing interest in Doctor Who because it's "not as good as it used to be when it was really popular".
Anyone can play that game. From my subjective memories and experiences, Doctor Who has always garnered good reviews, from the RTD years through to the present, and has always attracted a loyal and sizeable fan-base: nothing has changed. On the flip side I don't believe that Doctor Who has ever had mass appeal since it returned. I can't remember the David Tennant era being so popular that everyone at work or at home was talking about - quite the reverse: it was still Doctor Who, a reasonably popular but still slightly geeky sci-fi show. Most of my work colleagues were talking about X Factor or other reality TV shows and dramas, but I can't remember any talking about Doctor Who on Monday morning. So again, nothing has substantially changed, as that remains true today.
That's just my own experience, of course. But until I see hard evidence that is incontrovertible in the shape of plummeting viewing figures and terrible reviews, I refuse to believe that Doctor Who is in bad shape or that people are turning off in their droves.”
I too struggle to see this monstrous decline that Doctor Who is supposedly going through, but saying that usually gets me accused of burying my head in the sand and being a hardcore licker of Moffat's behind (because enjoying his work is a huge crime on these forums, apparently).
Beyond TV in general not seeing the ratings it did before, I think the main reasons behind S9's lower ratings are the ridiculously late air times and the poor promotion by the BBC. But as said, it still did reasonably well even then and there are many good shows around that would kill for DW's position.
And as also mentioned, critical reception was glowing for S9, which some people may not care to hear, but I think counts for a lot when critics can support their thoughts on an episode with well-reasoned points, whereas people on sites like this just say stuff like "I stopped watching after five minutes because I didn't get it, worst TV ever!"
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