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Is Doctor Who Losing People's Interest?


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Old 08-12-2016, 08:49
Theophile
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I just don't understand this at all. You can look what we were shown and say nothing changed. We just didn't know about it before. All that happened was a little more was revealed about something we previously knew nothing about. That applies to all of SM's so-called changes.

Personally, I enjoyed these glimpses into the Doctor's past. They are some of the sorts of things that fans have debated and speculated about for years.

As for ego, SM's ego and motivation is something I know nothing about, so any opinion about it is speculation at best. What evidence there is suggests to me that he's motivated like any fan would be. He's a fan too.

It's part of a showrunner's job to develop the show and keep it relevant, and not just preserve like a relic in a museum.
But one of the problems is that it was all about Clara.

Clara told the First Doctor which Tardis to take.
Clara saved each and every Doctor throughout each of their adventures throughout all of time and space.
Heck, Clara talked the Time Lords into giving The Doctor 12 new re-generations.
Clara even scared The Doctor into fighting evil in the first place.
Clara inspired The Doctor to spend billions of years dying over and over again to save her.

It is Clara, Clara, Clara, Clara, Clara. Apparently, The Doctor is nothing, has never been anything and will never be anything without Clara.

The self-importance of writing your pet companion into the end-all, be-all, better than The Doctor in every way companion and has always been and always will be (she's even immortal now with her own Tardis) is an incredibly ego-maniacal thing to do.
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Old 08-12-2016, 09:10
Mulett
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Thank you Theophile. You've articulated beautifully the issue I had about the writing around Clara.

The other New Who companions also had important roles, of course. The Doctor loved Rose. Martha helped the Doctor move on from losing Rose. Donna became his best friend. Amy and Rory became his surrogate family. And River became his wife.

But none of those companion stories compare with how Clara was constantly shoehorned into every sacred part of Doctor Who continuity.

As you say, a very egotistical thing to do. And worse than that - boring.
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Old 08-12-2016, 09:14
Granny McSmith
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While I agree with at least three of your reasons, I am concerned that we, the fans, are talking down dr who, when we should be constructive and boosting it, spreading the word ? Who will defend the doctor if not us ?!
We probably do, in the wider world. I may slag off Moffat, Clara, the scripts, the acting, the arcs etc on here, but let anyone dare criticise any aspect of Doctor Who in real life, and I won't hear a word against it. It's the best thing since sliced bread.
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Old 08-12-2016, 09:18
Granny McSmith
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. And worse than that - boring.
Yes, that's hit the nail on the head. Love it or loathe it, I've never been bored of DW before these last couple of series.
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Old 08-12-2016, 09:22
Sam_Gee1
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We probably do, in the wider world. I may slag off Moffat, Clara, the scripts, the acting, the arcs etc on here, but let anyone dare criticise any aspect of Doctor Who in real life, and I won't hear a word against it. It's the best thing since sliced bread.
It is very much like a football team you support, you may be dissapointed with it and even annoyed. You may slag off your own team, but the moment someone else does it is war.
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Old 08-12-2016, 09:45
broadshoulder
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Even JNT's last episodes were enjoyable. Cant say the same for Moffatt.

Ive no idea what the first story I watched was probably Destiny of the Daleks but for some reason I had a vague memory of The Sunmakers even before I got it on VHS.

Ummm disagree....it became obvious that JNT was out of his depth with the Leisure Hive

Moffats heading in that direction. I wasn't impressed by Missy. The old fans stick with the show because they love it
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Old 08-12-2016, 09:53
Talma
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Thank you Theophile. You've articulated beautifully the issue I had about the writing around Clara.

The other New Who companions also had important roles, of course. The Doctor loved ,Rose. Martha helped the Doctor move on from losing Rose. Donna became his best friend. Amy and Rory became his surrogate family. And River became his wife.

But none of those companion stories compare with how Clara was constantly shoehorned into every sacred part of Doctor Who continuity.

As you say, a very egotistical thing to do. And worse than that - boring.
This, exactly. I don't get Moffat saying 'it's all about the companion' - in his world, maybe, but most of us want to know more about and see more of the Doctor, the chap it's been 'all about' for over 50'years (with a little help from his friends)

We probably do, in the wider world. I may slag off Moffat, Clara, the scripts, the acting, the arcs etc on here, but let anyone dare criticise any aspect of Doctor Who in real life, and I won't hear a word against it. It's the best thing since sliced bread.
True. I'll admit to anyone I couldn't stand Clara and have my more-and-lesser preferred Doctors but anyone have a go at the show in general and it can get a little heated
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Old 08-12-2016, 10:42
GDK
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But one of the problems is that it was all about Clara.

Clara told the First Doctor which Tardis to take.
Clara saved each and every Doctor throughout each of their adventures throughout all of time and space.
Heck, Clara talked the Time Lords into giving The Doctor 12 new re-generations.
Clara even scared The Doctor into fighting evil in the first place.
Clara inspired The Doctor to spend billions of years dying over and over again to save her.

It is Clara, Clara, Clara, Clara, Clara. Apparently, The Doctor is nothing, has never been anything and will never be anything without Clara.

The self-importance of writing your pet companion into the end-all, be-all, better than The Doctor in every way companion and has always been and always will be (she's even immortal now with her own Tardis) is an incredibly ego-maniacal thing to do.
Doctor Who is all about the companion really. SM did take Clara to the extreme though, I readily admit.

Why is it actually "all about the companion"? Simple. If the whole backstory of the Doctor had been ever been revealed Doctor Who as a piece of drama on TV would have been finished, and we would not still be here, more than fifty years after it began, discussing its finer points.

Serialised TV (most weekly scripted TV shows before the current trend exemplified by GoT set in) requires that there be no character development of the main protagonists we see in each weekly installment. If a major change with consequences happens to a major character it risks damaging the format of the show. There's very little change to the main characters. Guest characters appear and events happen in individual episodes that are never mentioned again and have no consequences for the continuing characters. One consequence of that is that you also get no dramatic reveals of significant backstory of the main characters.

That's actually the opposite of true drama, where key characters learn (or fail to learn) things through the events in a single story which have consequence. Nobody is interested once you've got to the "they all lived a happily ever after" bit. In serialised "drama" each episode/story, with few exceptions, is self contained .

One aspect of the genius of Doctor Who's format is that it gets around this dramatic limitation in two ways.

The Doctor himself regenerates, thereby generating interest through celebrity, who the next actor to play him will be, etc, and because in 'verse he changes appearance, and surface character. Fundamentally, he's still the hero figure who tries to save the day in each adventure. On that fundamental level it's a bit of a con. It's a change that's no change.

The second way is that the format has the Doctor and companions. The companions are allowed to learn, grow and develop through the course of their time travelling with the Doctor. They (usually) stay with the Doctor for a while and then they're gone. Major character development and backstory reveals are possible for the companions.

That's why SM says "it's all about the companion".

As fans, we crave more knowledge of the Doctor's backstory. We want more understanding of him. We want a more complete story.

If the Doctor's backstory was ever fully revealed, it would mean the end of the show. If Doctor Who ever returned, it would be a reboot, requiring minimum continuity with anything that's gone before.
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Old 08-12-2016, 11:12
Michael_Eve
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The companion has certainly become more important in C21 Who and that has been true from the off; I think RTD and SM share the same 'philosophy' GDK quotes above. Hence the first episode title of Series 1 and the 'Bad Wolf' business at the conclusion of said series.

Both Clara and Rose are interesting, flawed characters and I get the feeling how you react to them is often tied into what era you feel an affinity to; which is stating the bleedin' obvious, I suspect! After the whole 'impossible girl' business, I personally found Clara very interesting. Trying to lead some sort of actual 'real' life whilst clearly becoming more 'addicted' to her travels in the TARDIS during Series 8, and post Danny's death becoming increasingly gung ho and reckless in Series 9. (The possible 'end' between series in 'Last Christmas' is gorgeous, beautifully played by Capaldi and Coleman. That might've been the time to go in retrospect.)

Rose's infatuation with the Doctor made her increasingly unlikeable post Eccleston, I thought, but a certain selfishness was always there; her treatment of Mickey is pretty appalling, right up to the Cybermen 2 parter, yet she's upset when he sensibly legs it. She was actually *jealous* in Boom Town when the lad mentions another girl. What?! She'd already told him that there was "...nothing for me here" to him, and the bloke's been suspected of murder for a year; in Aliens of London she's sullen around her poor mum then Mickey turns up and she says "Oh, I was going to call ya..."

Lost track of my point there. It got away from me. Still....Donna's the one for me, anyway!
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Old 08-12-2016, 11:50
Isambard Brunel
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It doesn't help when BBC Worldwide are hell bent on swatting Doctor Who fan reaction videos on Youtube that don't even contain an embedded thumbnail video of the episode, and have lousy audio quality of the episode picked up from laptop speakers. For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e0Rwh2JeIo

...which was exactly the same in nature as:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWw8v3qapiI

Given the kind of things you can easily find on Youtube, I think BBC Worldwide really are arseholes to be going around doing this to reaction videos lately, especially when the official Doctor Who channel on YouTube has interviewed some reaction Youtubers who do actually embed a video thumbnail, and plugged others (and interview them in the magazine!) who do exactly the same as the above banned video.
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:04
Mulett
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I always saw the companion as being our emotional 'in' to the Doctor's world. They basically play our part in the show, the ordinary person thrown into the Doctor's mad life.

And I think at the heart of Doctor Who, the Doctor should always be the mystery. That's why its not good when we find out too much about him. We should always be left wanting more.

But then Clara became a mystery too, and I don't think viewers quite knew where their emotional 'in' was with the show anymore. We were left with a mysterious but fairly affable Doctor (Matt Smith) and a companion that we simply couldn't make head nor tail of.

And unfortunately when Peter Capaldi's intense and hard-to-read Doctor entered the frame, it become something of an emotional wasteland for me. A dislikeable Doctor and an unlikeable companion. I just couldn't find the emotional 'in' at all.

That's why I think Bill is going to be so important to the show. But has Moffatt learnt his lesson, and does he even think there's a lesson to be learnt?
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Old 08-12-2016, 13:15
GDK
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I always saw the companion as being our emotional 'in' to the Doctor's world. They basically play our part in the show, the ordinary person thrown into the Doctor's mad life.

And I think at the heart of Doctor Who, the Doctor should always be the mystery. That's why its not good when we find out too much about him. We should always be left wanting more.

But then Clara became a mystery too, and I don't think viewers quite knew where their emotional 'in' was with the show anymore. We were left with a mysterious but fairly affable Doctor (Matt Smith) and a companion that we simply couldn't make head nor tail of.

And unfortunately when Peter Capaldi's intense and hard-to-read Doctor entered the frame, it become something of an emotional wasteland for me. A dislikeable Doctor and an unlikeable companion. I just couldn't find the emotional 'in' at all.

That's why I think Bill is going to be so important to the show. But has Moffatt learnt his lesson, and does he even think there's a lesson to be learnt?
I agree to this extent. Leading new viewers in, as a new companion learns about the Doctor, we do, is another narrative "purpose" of having a companion.

I think you have a point about Clara. Not that I disliked her, but showing more of her being amazed by, admiring and learning about the Doctor early on would have served that "new viewer" purpose. And allowed more viewers to warm to her early on. Clara-as-a-mystery would then have been more in the background. We would then have had more sympathy for her and understanding of her shock and emotional reaction when 12 emerged with his prickly early personality.

I think season 9, with Clara was a mistake. Her perfect departure was the previous Christmas special, as others have said. Contrary to the pre series publicity Clara and the Doctor did not have any fun, and her imminent departure cast a pall over the whole season, though the up side was that it led to a very dramatic conclusion for her and the season.
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Old 08-12-2016, 13:39
Rooks
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The self-importance of writing your pet companion into the end-all, be-all, better than The Doctor in every way companion and has always been and always will be (she's even immortal now with her own Tardis) is an incredibly ego-maniacal thing to do.
I agree with the idea of focusing on the companion and it follows on from the show's original concept. It's even more valid 53 years later, after all, there's only so much you can reveal about the Doctor himself so it makes sense that focusing on the companion's story keeps it fresh.

However, in both Clara and Rose, they became too important to the central character of the Doctor. It didn't help that the audience were teased with both Rose and Clara's demise only to be have neither come true. There's only so many times that the show can do something like that before the audience loses interest. The audience doesn't seem to care about missing an episode or watching it on catch-up a week later so in a way, killing Clara off would have been a good thing for the show. People need to have that feeling of missing out or getting spoiled if they don't watch it live.
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Old 08-12-2016, 13:44
PaperSkin
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The self-importance of writing your pet companion into the end-all, be-all, better than The Doctor in every way companion and has always been and always will be (she's even immortal now with her own Tardis) is an incredibly ego-maniacal thing to do.
Yes

But none of those companion stories compare with how Clara was constantly shoehorned into every sacred part of Doctor Who continuity. As you say, a very egotistical thing to do. And worse than that - boring.
Yes

Yes, that's hit the nail on the head. Love it or loathe it, I've never been bored of DW before these last couple of series.
and one more Yes.... Exactly right, I'm glad its not just me who sees/thinks this way... the way Moffat has stamped his foot on parts of DW that should be left alone all in an effort to be remembered is something I'm surprised more people don't pick up on and criticise for (and its so blatant), its harmful to the fabric of the show, It weakens and cheapens the character of the Doctor and the universe, the show might as well be called Doctor I know All About You...

Also yeah Series 9 was the first time I've ever felt bored watching DW, even when in the past when there was bad episodes they won't boring... usually because they are so bad they are entertaining in their badness...

The show IMO needs new writers and a production overhaul.... its needs all new blood, the only one I would keep in the entire crew is Capaldi...
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Old 08-12-2016, 16:12
dave_windows
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It doesn't help when BBC Worldwide are hell bent on swatting Doctor Who fan reaction videos on Youtube that don't even contain an embedded thumbnail video of the episode, and have lousy audio quality of the episode picked up from laptop speakers. For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e0Rwh2JeIo

...which was exactly the same in nature as:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWw8v3qapiI

Given the kind of things you can easily find on Youtube, I think BBC Worldwide really are arseholes to be going around doing this to reaction videos lately, especially when the official Doctor Who channel on YouTube has interviewed some reaction Youtubers who do actually embed a video thumbnail, and plugged others (and interview them in the magazine!) who do exactly the same as the above banned video.
The BBC like to do things like that they bend the rules cos it convenient for them.
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Old 08-12-2016, 16:32
Brandon_Smith
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I always saw the companion as being our emotional 'in' to the Doctor's world. They basically play our part in the show, the ordinary person thrown into the Doctor's mad life.

And I think at the heart of Doctor Who, the Doctor should always be the mystery. That's why its not good when we find out too much about him. We should always be left wanting more.

But then Clara became a mystery too, and I don't think viewers quite knew where their emotional 'in' was with the show anymore. We were left with a mysterious but fairly affable Doctor (Matt Smith) and a companion that we simply couldn't make head nor tail of.

And unfortunately when Peter Capaldi's intense and hard-to-read Doctor entered the frame, it become something of an emotional wasteland for me. A dislikeable Doctor and an unlikeable companion. I just couldn't find the emotional 'in' at all.

That's why I think Bill is going to be so important to the show. But has Moffatt learnt his lesson, and does he even think there's a lesson to be learnt?
Thank you Mulett completey agree its like what you or another poster said (not sure who): Doctor Who is becomming less about The Stories of The Doctor and more about The Story of The Doctor. Plus its hard to follow a show when the lead whos supposed to carry it has little to no Charisma to him. The show needs to go back to being a form of escapism than just another mundane Sci-Fi show on the guide. Doctor Who is in a very "Meh" sort of stage right now.

As for Moffat I find it hard to believe he has, he has a very sort of 'I'll change and do what I like and no one can tell me otherwise, because I'm the Showrunner and know better' Infact his advice to inspiring new writers shared through the BBC's Writersroom Twitter account, is quote unquote ""You will make more improvements by praising the good than criticising the bad", There is no way you can defend that.
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Old 08-12-2016, 17:47
dave_windows
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Clara told the First Doctor which Tardis to take.
Clara saved each and every Doctor throughout each of their adventures throughout all of time and space.
Heck, Clara talked the Time Lords into giving The Doctor 12 new re-generations.
Clara even scared The Doctor into fighting evil in the first place.
Clara inspired The Doctor to spend billions of years dying over and over again to save her.

It is Clara, Clara, Clara, Clara, Clara. Apparently, The Doctor is nothing, has never been anything and will never be anything without Clara.

The self-importance of writing your pet companion into the end-all, be-all, better than The Doctor in every way companion and has always been and always will be (she's even immortal now with her own Tardis) is an incredibly ego-maniacal thing to do.
Thats the problem with current day companions.
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Old 08-12-2016, 19:06
Thamwet
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But one of the problems is that it was all about Clara.

Clara told the First Doctor which Tardis to take.
Clara saved each and every Doctor throughout each of their adventures throughout all of time and space.
Heck, Clara talked the Time Lords into giving The Doctor 12 new re-generations.
Clara even scared The Doctor into fighting evil in the first place.
Clara inspired The Doctor to spend billions of years dying over and over again to save her.

It is Clara, Clara, Clara, Clara, Clara. Apparently, The Doctor is nothing, has never been anything and will never be anything without Clara.

The self-importance of writing your pet companion into the end-all, be-all, better than The Doctor in every way companion and has always been and always will be (she's even immortal now with her own Tardis) is an incredibly ego-maniacal thing to do.
Very ego-manical, yes. But it isn't really what Moffat's done. He did perhaps make her a bit too important, but she hasn't really made the Doctor who he is, as you seem to be suggesting.

1) Yes, but the First Doctor appeared...how can you criticism that scene, man?

2) She was never shown to "save" any previous incarnations, she was simply shown to be nearby in a handful of random events in his previous life.

3) So what? Companions often end up saving the Doctor throughout the series, it happened in the first ever story!

4) No she didn't, she was simply one of many things which might have inspired him. Though it was going a bit too far, I admit.

5) I think the Doctor would have done that for most of his companions.
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Old 08-12-2016, 21:51
The_Judge_
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The great thing about Doctor Who in recent years is the rise in interest in USA. It will be interesting to se how this years sabbatical has on that. I have a TARDIS decal on my Macbook Pro and many American colleagues, customers etc at work from the states recognise it, which wouldn't have happened a few years ago, it would have been the odd few ...
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Old 08-12-2016, 22:33
dave_windows
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The great thing about Doctor Who in recent years is the rise in interest in USA. It will be interesting to se how this years sabbatical has on that. I have a TARDIS decal on my Macbook Pro and many American colleagues, customers etc at work from the states recognise it, which wouldn't have happened a few years ago, it would have been the odd few ...
Ok so 50th anniversary/Comic Con/Excusive trailer/Moffatt sulking if anyone shared it.

Why?
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Old 08-12-2016, 23:07
PaperSkin
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What?
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Old 09-12-2016, 05:11
Theophile
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Very ego-manical, yes. But it isn't really what Moffat's done. He did perhaps make her a bit too important, but she hasn't really made the Doctor who he is, as you seem to be suggesting.

1) Yes, but the First Doctor appeared...how can you criticism that scene, man?
Because it was shown that she literally set The Doctor on the right path from the very beginning and that, without her, The Doctor would not be the man that we know now.


2) She was never shown to "save" any previous incarnations, she was simply shown to be nearby in a handful of random events in his previous life.
Considering that The Great Intelligence went back in time to mess up his life and she went in to stop The Great Intelligence, we would not have The Doctor as we know him, with all of his victories throughout the ages without Clara.


3) So what? Companions often end up saving the Doctor throughout the series, it happened in the first ever story!
But it does not happen in each and every single story. Especially it is not hinted at that it was one specific companion that has throughout all of time and space saved him in his adventures each and every single time.


4) No she didn't, she was simply one of many things which might have inspired him. Though it was going a bit too far, I admit.
Way too far. I don't want to know about The Doctor's childhood; that take the mystery out of it for me. Companions should never interact with The Doctor as a child. And if she didn't inspire him that much, then why did he remember that particular phrase to help another child some thousands and thousands of years later. The scene as it was shown was implying that she made The Doctor the man that he is today.


5) I think the Doctor would have done that for most of his companions.
I disagree. The Doctor does nothing even remotely like this for any of his other companions. And, I am sorry, but nobody would ever do this for another being. And, if they did it, it would be for his wife, not a normal companion. The fact that The Doctor does all of that and saves Clara rather than his wife hacked me off to no end. He could have saved any one of his companions who died, the most important of which to him should be his wife, River Song, but, no, he saves Clara. Give me a break.

Moffat has set the bar so high in terms of a companion's abilities, a companion's importance to The Doctor, a companion's hyper-competence and what The Doctor is willing to do in order to save a companion that no other companion can ever live up to it and every past companion and every future companion will simply pale in comparison.

I am sorry, but what Moffat did with Clara was the height of ridiculousness and hyperbole. Four and a half Billion years. Give me a break.
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Old 09-12-2016, 07:57
dave_windows
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It always bugs me that the Doctor isnt the one doing the saving. Hes supposed to be the alien who should be saving everyone but no they put the companion as the far more important star.

I didnt mind SJS doing it occasionally but you know the Doctor was the star of the show.

Maybe we need companion to be more Jo Grant style.
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Old 09-12-2016, 09:37
GDK
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One aspect of the Doctor and his companions in 21st century Doctor Who has been that during their time with him he teaches them to be more than they ever thought they could be. He wants them to become more competent. He wants them to become more independent and self reliant (actually things we all should aspire to). He can't be around all the time, everywhere, especially Earth, to save everyone. He encourages others to become heroic in their own right.

We saw this in spades, and how it can go horribly wrong if the companion overreaches, with Clara. And we've seen it with Amy and Rory and with Donna, Martha, Rose and Mickey. It's been demonstrated by others who failed the test.

It makes it all the more poignant in Donna's case in that, in the end, she looses almost everything she'd gained from her time with the Doctor.

A Jo Grant "type" companion with accompanying 1970's attitudes towards women would not work for a 21st century audience. In 'verse the Doctor wouldn't choose a companion like her in the first place, always getting into trouble and needing rescue, or would he would leave her behind if she failed to develop survival skills really quickly.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:14
lloys-strachan
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I gave up on DW a couple of series ago.

I did my best to like it but couldn't get to grips with the way Moffat was taking the show.

Under RTD the Doctor was funny and family friendly.

SM has taken the program in a direction I personally don't like and over complicated the story arcs.
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