DS Forums

 
 

Is Doctor Who Losing People's Interest?


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-12-2016, 11:16
Talma
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,173
One aspect of the Doctor and his companions in 21st century Doctor Who has been that during their time with him he teaches them to be more than they ever thought they could be. He wants them to become more competent. He wants them to become more independent and self reliant (actually things we all should aspire to). He can't be around all the time, everywhere, especially Earth, to save everyone. He encourages others to become heroic in their nown right.

A Jo Grant "type" companion with accompanying 1970's attitudes towards women would not work for a 21st century audience. In 'verse the Doctor wouldn't choose a companion like her in the first place, always getting into trouble and needing rescue, or would he would leave her behind if she failed to develop survival skills really quickly.
Companions have almost always come out of the experience more confident and self-reliant because of the things they have seen and learned about in their travels. Ian and Barbara gradually became far more open minded and knowledgable. I don't think anyone could dismiss Barbara as less strong or heroic than Amy or Clara because she was a 60s woman. I'd certainly back her against Clara any day

The Doctor was emotionally upset when Jo left, distraught when Jamie and Zoe had their minds wiped because of him and when Adric was killed, risked his life (permanently) for Peri, obviously cared for Sarah Jane in his typical understated way, and that's without referencing any of the others, who all must have meant something to him in varying degrees. He even abandoned his own granddaughter for what he saw as her own good without us seeing him spending centuries living as a hermit regretting it, if indeed he did. He didn't obsess about them or say he couldn't face life without them; he knew the worst thing about getting close to them was that they would eventually die while he went on. They were people whose eyes he opened in the course of 'usual' time and space travel and what they encountered.

The companions used to be our channel to the Doctor, sharing their wonder and fear as they travelled with him, got into and out of trouble by varying means, being rescued by him and occasionally rescuing him, the wonders they were seeing and their experiences expanding their minds and leaving them better off but still in awe of what he was and what he had done for them. It wasn't always a happy ending but most of them survived and went back to their lives with an added confidence and added purpose.

While how he felt about Rose was perhaps understandable given he thought he had just wiped out his own people and planet, and Amy in the end was more of a father-daughter thing given the weird relationships involved, with Clara it was so OTT at times it got to be less the companion and Doctor than the Universe-changing Doctor-saving and Most Important Person EVER and oh yes, that bloke in the TARDIS.

I used to be able to relate to a young (or not so young) person travelling new worlds with complete wonder and growing understanding with a mysterious super-intelligent but sometimes fallible alien, but not a feisty, wise-cracking Key to Space and Time and part time Saviour of the Doctor masquerading as a 'normal' young person.
Talma is offline   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 09-12-2016, 11:17
Mulett
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Essex
Posts: 8,404
I gave up on DW a couple of series ago.

I did my best to like it but couldn't get to grips with the way Moffat was taking the show.

Under RTD the Doctor was funny and family friendly.

SM has taken the program in a direction I personally don't like and over complicated the story arcs.
Hopefully you'll be back in 2018
Mulett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2016, 12:07
Dean Dare
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 366
I have to say I also blame Moffat, I wasn't a massive RTD fan with his big reset button at the end of every series so was so happy when SM was announced as the new show runner as I had loved nearly all his work but when series 5 kicked off all that kept me watching was Matt Smith ( and I was one of the anti matt smith brigade before I watched him) but last two series I've not bothered, as I don't enjoy moffatts direction with the series, I don't enjoy peter Capaldis Doctor so it's bye bye from me
Dean Dare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2016, 13:37
Thamwet
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Moo
Posts: 1,148
Because it was shown that she literally set The Doctor on the right path from the very beginning and that, without her, The Doctor would not be the man that we know now.




Considering that The Great Intelligence went back in time to mess up his life and she went in to stop The Great Intelligence, we would not have The Doctor as we know him, with all of his victories throughout the ages without Clara.




But it does not happen in each and every single story. Especially it is not hinted at that it was one specific companion that has throughout all of time and space saved him in his adventures each and every single time.




Way too far. I don't want to know about The Doctor's childhood; that take the mystery out of it for me. Companions should never interact with The Doctor as a child. And if she didn't inspire him that much, then why did he remember that particular phrase to help another child some thousands and thousands of years later. The scene as it was shown was implying that she made The Doctor the man that he is today.




I disagree. The Doctor does nothing even remotely like this for any of his other companions. And, I am sorry, but nobody would ever do this for another being. And, if they did it, it would be for his wife, not a normal companion. The fact that The Doctor does all of that and saves Clara rather than his wife hacked me off to no end. He could have saved any one of his companions who died, the most important of which to him should be his wife, River Song, but, no, he saves Clara. Give me a break.

Moffat has set the bar so high in terms of a companion's abilities, a companion's importance to The Doctor, a companion's hyper-competence and what The Doctor is willing to do in order to save a companion that no other companion can ever live up to it and every past companion and every future companion will simply pale in comparison.

I am sorry, but what Moffat did with Clara was the height of ridiculousness and hyperbole. Four and a half Billion years. Give me a break.
1) Rubbish. Nobody becomes who they are based on what a stranger tells them as a small child in the middle of the night. That would simply be one of many things which build a character into who he is. Yes, it's taking things a bit far, but it's not anything massively game changing.

2) And? It was the 50th anniversary year, big things happened. Would you rather they hadn't reintroduced the Great Intelligence? Would you rather they hadn't built a story line that incorporated some brief glimpses of classic Doctors? I think most of us were just delighted by it, as opposed to looking for reasons to moan.

3) "But it does not happen in each and every single story." No, and that wasn't the case throughout Clara's time on the show either.

4) Same point as above. The Doctor might have remembered a phrase, but the idea that single encounter built him is ludicrous. Furthermore, we SAW a large chunk of what made the Doctor who he is on screen, in his early adventures. His early companions were often the ones who told him, you can't just leave in some instances, and that message clearly stuck. He wasn't remotely heroic or even morally good to begin with, but he becomes so, due to his companions influence, and we can see it happen as viewers.

5) But I think so. The reason he's never done anything like it before it because he's never HAD to. But I think he would. Bear in mind, to him, four billion years only felt like a few days, what with the resets. Of course he'd have done it for some of his earlier friends. He's the Doctor.
Thamwet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2016, 14:00
Mulett
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Essex
Posts: 8,404

I guess the question, for Whovians at least, is whether the events of the past three seasons are now established parts of the Doctor's personal history - or simply present a divergence which can be ignored.

As far as I'm concerned, the Great Intelligence changed the Doctor's timeline and Clara simply changed it back. I think that created a point of divergence and so a parallel timeline but one that can be - and probably will be - ignored.

I prefer to think that everything involving Clara after that was simply the Doctor's personal history retrospectively changing to accommodate her. But now she is gone everything is back as it was.

I just don't think in years to come we'll be referencing the Hybrid as the reason the Doctor left Gallifrey or crediting Clara for the Doctor and Susan stealing that TARDIS.
Mulett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2016, 14:08
Michael_Eve
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,078
Point 4 above is spot on. It's one of the (many) delights of the Hartnell era that we see how the Doctor changes over the stories as he becomes closer and closer to Ian and Barbara. Initially he has his moments of resentment and deviousness (fair enough seeing as they barge on board, obviously for very good reasons mind, and Ian starts ordering him about!) yet the development of his relationship with the initial TARDIS crew changes him without question. We see him growing into the hero that we know and love.

Said before re: the GI and Splinter Clara, it's cool if you don't like the idea (think it's pretty 'muddy' myself!) but the splinters are just there to stop the GI effing about with the timeline and changing the Doctor's history. His victories absolutely remain his victories. And the concept of a villain invading the Doctor's time stream to eff things up....I think that's a valid idea in a show about a Timelord. (isn't it moot that this actually happened after subsequent events, anyway? Freely admit I'm a bit confused about that!)

eta Sorry, should've replied to Thamwet's post!
Michael_Eve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2016, 16:10
Shawn_Lunn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Scattered
Posts: 7,444
Moving away from Clara to one side, I think it's obvious this series needs to be a step in the right direction. A more relatable companion with Bill, a more balanced tone compared to the darker previous two series as well as better promotion and a timeslot.

Instead of shite like The Fan Show, the BBC could use that money to actually do some amazing concept trailers with the 12th Doctor, Bill and Nardole to give the show a promotional boost.
Shawn_Lunn is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2016, 16:18
dave_windows
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 5,342
Because it was shown that she literally set The Doctor on the right path from the very beginning and that, without her, The Doctor would not be the man that we know now.

Considering that The Great Intelligence went back in time to mess up his life and she went in to stop The Great Intelligence, we would not have The Doctor as we know him, with all of his victories throughout the ages without Clara
Ive tollerated alot of Who that was bad but that plot was seriously dumb going through his time stream. I didnt like the hey take this Tardis, why meddle with past stories?
dave_windows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2016, 11:58
GDK
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Wigan
Posts: 4,877
I guess the question, for Whovians at least, is whether the events of the past three seasons are now established parts of the Doctor's personal history - or simply present a divergence which can be ignored.

As far as I'm concerned, the Great Intelligence changed the Doctor's timeline and Clara simply changed it back. I think that created a point of divergence and so a parallel timeline but one that can be - and probably will be - ignored.

I prefer to think that everything involving Clara after that was simply the Doctor's personal history retrospectively changing to accommodate her. But now she is gone everything is back as it was.

I just don't think in years to come we'll be referencing the Hybrid as the reason the Doctor left Gallifrey or crediting Clara for the Doctor and Susan stealing that TARDIS.
I totally agree. In my view it's a massive over reaction to be so indignant that SM "changed everything". These are "changes" that resulted in the status quo.

And then to say "it's ego" as well goes beyond "reasonable" debate. As we don't know the man, let's debate the stories, not SM's motivations.
GDK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2016, 14:07
dave_windows
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 5,342
I totally agree. In my view it's a massive over reaction to be so indignant that SM "changed everything". These are "changes" that resulted in the status quo.

And then to say "it's ego" as well goes beyond "reasonable" debate. As we don't know the man, let's debate the stories, not SM's motivations.
Well I dont believe the original doctor really died and the one we have now being a copy on his first life.
dave_windows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2016, 14:25
GDK
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Wigan
Posts: 4,877
Well I dont believe the original doctor really died and the one we have now being a copy on his first life.
If you're referring to the events in Heaven Sent, two things:

1) It's not historical DW, in that the things shown in Heaven Sent didn't alter anything shown in past DW. What we were debating is whether or not Clara's splinters and the Great Intelligence significantly altered anything we've seen in classic DW stories.

2) Although what we saw was definitely experienced by the Doctor, you could take the view that it wasn't real because it occurred inside the "prison" constructed by the Timelords. If you took those events as "real", then yes, what we have now is the billionth copy of a copy of copy of the original that first entered the prison. Even if you take the view that it was "real", then it's another difference that makes no difference. These things are... malleable and open to interpretation in the DW universe. In any event it's not likely that the question will ever be addressed in the TV show - though I wouldn't be surprised if Big Finish play with the questions raised in this episode at some point. If nothing else, you have to admit SM has enlarged the DW playground for 3rd parties like Big Finish and authors of Doctor Who comics and novels.

Anyone can reject events as shown because they don't like them - just as many refuse to acknowledge the half human remark in Doctor Who: The Movie. It's a personal choice after all.

(I myself like to pretend that all the "Alien" movies after "Aliens" didn't happen because of a personal distate for the 3rd movie and how it treated Newt and Hicks. YMMV.)
GDK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2016, 15:16
Shawn_Lunn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Scattered
Posts: 7,444
I want to be excited for the Christmas special because the idea of a superhero on the show isn't the problem. The problem though is that after a year off the air, it feels a bit too slight of a story to actually return with.

Not to mention the fact that we're also being saddled with a recurring character who I genuinely is going to be more of a hindrance for the tenth series than an asset.

The episode might be a lot of fun and Grant's costume looks decent enough (the mask could be better though) but I can't help feeling most of viewers are going to come away from the episode wishing for something bigger.
Shawn_Lunn is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2016, 15:35
Pink Knight
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 8,451
Been watching since the 70's. The first stories I remember were Terror of The Zygons and a repeat of The Sea Devils.
I started to drift after Tom Baker and only watched occasionally.

Its nothing to do with getting old, as when it came back I watched most of it till recently. Catching up on DVD the old stories, which I still watch.

I don't have a problem with any of the actors playing the lead, although I can't say I have been blown away Eccleston onwards.

The self contained episodes although not as good as a serial for me I have gotten used to.
Part of the problem for me must be the throwaway style of the stories and too much reliance on putting current references to try and get down with the kids.
Its adults trying to write a story that they think younger viewers will like and missing the mark.
If it was just creepy and in its own little world then it would be better.
While I like superhero films the Christmas special is just another example by the looks of it to jump on the current bandwagon.
I will watch, but not when its broadcast as I have better things to do at the time.
Pink Knight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2016, 16:14
Nelson_De_Souza
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 413
I want to be excited for the Christmas special because the idea of a superhero on the show isn't the problem. The problem though is that after a year off the air, it feels a bit too slight of a story to actually return with.

Not to mention the fact that we're also being saddled with a recurring character who I genuinely is going to be more of a hindrance for the tenth series than an asset.

The episode might be a lot of fun and Grant's costume looks decent enough (the mask could be better though) but I can't help feeling most of viewers are going to come away from the episode wishing for something bigger.
I want to be excited for the Christmas special too and amazingly, it's not the superhero thing that's still bothering me the most, it is Nardole. The logic behind bringing him back just isn't there to me (he asked Moffat to return apparently) and now he's the companion when the only footage we've so far made the reporter/cleaner Lucy feel more like a companion. I just wish it was that way round. Her as the companion and let's say reintroducing Nardole near the end of the episode ahead of him in Series 10.

Also not helping is Moffat's comments that Christmas features inside the first 5 minutes and that's it within the special. Begs the question of having a Christmas special if they don't make it feel like Christmas in my opinion....
Nelson_De_Souza is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2016, 16:53
Steven_P
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,593
I want to be excited for the Christmas special too and amazingly, it's not the superhero thing that's still bothering me the most, it is Nardole. The logic behind bringing him back just isn't there to me (he asked Moffat to return apparently)
I've never understood this but I will want to see. I can't say I've been a fan of ML in anything and THORS he didn't really do much to earn companion status.... I'm getting a bit fed up with not being excited about new Dr Who at the moment. I want new Who, I just want to be excited about it.

Although having said that I'm in the middle of The Wheel in Space at the moment and I forgotten how good it is.
Steven_P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2016, 16:53
Isambard Brunel
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,087
As much as I'm not liking the idea of Nardole returning, I think the Capaldi's response to him in that trailer reinforces the perception of his Doctor being a miserable killjoy. Hardly something to look forward to on Christmas afternoon.

It's this trailer's equivalent of "the same old same old" line in the last series trailer.
Isambard Brunel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2016, 22:05
Brandon_Smith
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,295
I have to say I also blame Moffat, I wasn't a massive RTD fan with his big reset button at the end of every series so was so happy when SM was announced as the new show runner as I had loved nearly all his work but when series 5 kicked off all that kept me watching was Matt Smith ( and I was one of the anti matt smith brigade before I watched him) but last two series I've not bothered, as I don't enjoy moffatts direction with the series, I don't enjoy peter Capaldis Doctor so it's bye bye from me
Are you related to Daniel Dare by any chance?
Brandon_Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2016, 22:32
Nelson_De_Souza
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 413
As much as I'm not liking the idea of Nardole returning, I think the Capaldi's response to him in that trailer reinforces the perception of his Doctor being a miserable killjoy. Hardly something to look forward to on Christmas afternoon.

It's this trailer's equivalent of "the same old same old" line in the last series trailer.
Indeed. It really is same old, same old in that regard.

Certainly not the most appealing trait to have on Christmas Day...
Nelson_De_Souza is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 07:57
Sara_Peplow
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,464
I liked the bit when he says be happy. I thing he is saying it to Grant aka Ghost and his girlfriend the journalist. Bit like superman and lois lane.

S10 could be really good. Suchet is in episode 4. So Capaldi gets to work with another established actor.

Only two weeks untill we can say Merry Christmas Doctor Who.
Sara_Peplow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 08:40
Theophile
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,830
As much as I'm not liking the idea of Nardole returning, I think the Capaldi's response to him in that trailer reinforces the perception of his Doctor being a miserable killjoy. Hardly something to look forward to on Christmas afternoon.

It's this trailer's equivalent of "the same old same old" line in the last series trailer.
1) Rubbish. Nobody becomes who they are based on what a stranger tells them as a small child in the middle of the night. That would simply be one of many things which build a character into who he is. Yes, it's taking things a bit far, but it's not anything massively game changing.

2) And? It was the 50th anniversary year, big things happened. Would you rather they hadn't reintroduced the Great Intelligence? Would you rather they hadn't built a story line that incorporated some brief glimpses of classic Doctors? I think most of us were just delighted by it, as opposed to looking for reasons to moan.

3) "But it does not happen in each and every single story." No, and that wasn't the case throughout Clara's time on the show either.

4) Same point as above. The Doctor might have remembered a phrase, but the idea that single encounter built him is ludicrous. Furthermore, we SAW a large chunk of what made the Doctor who he is on screen, in his early adventures. His early companions were often the ones who told him, you can't just leave in some instances, and that message clearly stuck. He wasn't remotely heroic or even morally good to begin with, but he becomes so, due to his companions influence, and we can see it happen as viewers.

5) But I think so. The reason he's never done anything like it before it because he's never HAD to. But I think he would. Bear in mind, to him, four billion years only felt like a few days, what with the resets. Of course he'd have done it for some of his earlier friends. He's the Doctor.
We are just going to disagree on most of these points. I simply think that Moffat loves his Clara and he made her the end all be all companion of all space and time forevermore in the show who put The Doctor right, saved the universe countless times, could re-engineer super advanced Time Lord technology that she had never seen before at a moment's notice, etc., etc., etc.. Nothing can or ever will top undying hyperbole that is Clara. Heck, even her leaf is better than all of The Doctor.

But, you see otherwise and that is fair. Out of curiosity, why did he save Clara and not his wife in Heaven Sent?
Theophile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 09:07
dave_windows
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 5,342
I have to say I also blame Moffat, I wasn't a massive RTD fan with his big reset button at the end of every series so was so happy when SM was announced as the new show runner as I had loved nearly all his work but when series 5 kicked off all that kept me watching was Matt Smith ( and I was one of the anti matt smith brigade before I watched him) but last two series I've not bothered, as I don't enjoy moffatts direction with the series, I don't enjoy peter Capaldis Doctor so it's bye bye from me
I dont see why Moffatt had to insert a War Doctor just so he could solve the regeneration limit.

I would have made more sense to use this for the doctor making copies of himself. Yes they could have always said instead of disabling his regeneration hes on his final life.
dave_windows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 11:04
thehordeoftrav
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 162
I liked how BBC THREE would show reruns before airing the new series. I used to also look forward to the Sunday/Friday BBC THREE repeat of the new episode ( episodes which I enjoyed).

I know we have easy access to Iplayer, but it was like a tradition in my household.
thehordeoftrav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 10:44
Isambard Brunel
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,087
I don't quite get that remark, but I don't feel as though I'm missing out on anything hilarious by failing to understand it.
I can't see how you would be since my remarks weren't intended to be "hilarious". I'm sorry you fail to understand my literary references.
Isambard Brunel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 12:43
GDK
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Wigan
Posts: 4,877
We are just going to disagree on most of these points. I simply think that Moffat loves his Clara and he made her the end all be all companion of all space and time forevermore in the show who put The Doctor right, saved the universe countless times, could re-engineer super advanced Time Lord technology that she had never seen before at a moment's notice, etc., etc., etc.. Nothing can or ever will top undying hyperbole that is Clara. Heck, even her leaf is better than all of The Doctor.

But, you see otherwise and that is fair. Out of curiosity, why did he save Clara and not his wife in Heaven Sent?
The usual answer is that it's a fixed point in time. Or possibly it's that she's still alive? Since we know so little of the Doctor's background we don't know any details of his wife.

Or how about: Relationships move on, especially after several hundred years spent apart!

However, I don't remember anything special in Heaven Sent regarding that choice? Did I miss something?

If it's a general point then: The Doctor, what with possessing a time machine an' all, could, at any time, go back and save his wife or his great great great grandmother or Adric or Amy or anyone else he cared about.

Just by having a TARDIS.

But... we all prefer to ignore that logical inconsistency because we're fans and we like the show.

Why single out Heaven Sent for exactly the same criticism?

Oh wait....

[Edit: I just realised you refer to River Song. Never really bought the relationship (all love was from River's PoV). He wasn't really interested in her. Just found her a curiosity. He had more affection for Rose, Amy and Clara than River, really. Never bought that he really married her either - even in a defunct timeline. Thought you meant some other significant other from the Doctor's distant past.]
GDK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 13:25
Dean Dare
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 366
Are you related to Daniel Dare by any chance?
Not that I'm aware of
Dean Dare is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply




 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:02.