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Is 4k worth the upgrade?


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Old 20-12-2016, 10:19
Gilbertoo
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most viewers choose channels by the programme content rather than appearance.
Nail right on the head sir. People obsessed with pixels are the type of people who watch things because its made with more lines even though the actual product is crap.

I use freesat and when I I walk in and sit on couch 6 feet from 42" telly I have no idea if they have a HD channel on or not, and I don't care, can't see any difference between BBC HD channels, channel 4 HD, ITV HD and the SD equivalents, its all smoke and mirrors by TV manufacturers.
I don't think that's strictly true. The absolute majority of the time, I search Sky Q by HD content only. I know that I'm probably missing some good SD content, but I think the majority of what I want to watch will be in HD anyway, so no real need to search the SD options. I'm looking to get a 4K TV, but only when more content becomes available.....content seems to have ramped up in the last six months, so I think an upgrade might be due early next year.

Gotta say though, if you're watching a 42" TV from six foot away and you can't tell the difference between HD and SD, then either something is seriously wrong with your setup/feed or your eyesight isn't too great. I often visit my inlaws to find them watching an SD programme when the HD equivalent is available - I notice almost immediately that it's not in HD....and that when I'm approx. 12ft away from a 48" screen.
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Old 20-12-2016, 10:32
koantemplation
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I am fussy about PQ and one of my bug bears over the years has been black level, and the inability of LCD screens to display true black. I recognise that most people are not that interested in PQ, but it's a personal choice of mine.
I'm the same when it comes to picture quality.

I can't stand motion blur, so like a TV that can display action scenes as crisp as possible. Although I don't turn on motion processing as the filmic effect is too artificial for my liking.

My TV doesn't have the black levels of an OLED TV but the HDR (8bit) certainly helps.

IMO HDR is as big an improvement from 1080p TVs, as going from a CRT to a HD ready LCD TV was.

I like that newer TVs are even able to add HDR to non HDR transmissions.
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Old 20-12-2016, 10:40
Bio Max
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Personally I'd say yes. Recently bought a 4K HDR tv - and it's only 43" too

We sit 10 feet away from it so was advised that we wouldn't notice the difference - but we really do. It's so clean and sharp. The jump doesn't seem as massive from SD to HD was - but we can really tell the difference.

Definitely recommend HDR too!
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Old 20-12-2016, 11:00
GDK
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Nail right on the head sir. People obsessed with pixels are the type of people who watch things because its made with more lines even though the actual product is crap.

I use freesat and when I I walk in and sit on couch 6 feet from 42" telly I have no idea if they have a HD channel on or not, and I don't care, can't see any difference between BBC HD channels, channel 4 HD, ITV HD and the SD equivalents, its all smoke and mirrors by TV manufacturers.
With all due respect, if you can't tell the difference between SD and HD on a 42" screen at 6ft, then either something is wrong with your setup, or you need to get your eyes checked. My last set was a 42" full HD and the difference between HD and SD on various channels was as clear as night and day.

Is your Freesat via an external box? If so, have you checked the output is set correctly?
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Old 20-12-2016, 11:25
under_score
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With all due respect, if you can't tell the difference between SD and HD on a 42" screen at 6ft, then either something is wrong with your setup, or you need to get your eyes checked. My last set was a 42" full HD and the difference between HD and SD on various channels was as clear as night and day.

Is your Freesat via an external box? If so, have you checked the output is set correctly?
Samsung TV internal built in freesat , BBC SD channels are perfect, can't tell the difference even on "planet earth 2" , channel 4 is 104, channel 4 HD is 126 so 104 is mostly used, perfect picture on 104 channel 4 .
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Old 20-12-2016, 12:37
GDK
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Samsung TV internal built in freesat , BBC SD channels are perfect, can't tell the difference even on "planet earth 2" , channel 4 is 104, channel 4 HD is 126 so 104 is mostly used, perfect picture on 104 channel 4 .
Well, I'm not really familiar with Freesat's channel lineup, though I have just looked it up and the channel numbers you gave are correct.

Is it possible the TV is automatically mapping equivalent HD channels, where available, to the numbers used for SD? So that you are really watching HD and when choosing, say CH4, you get CH4 HD?

Actually the presence or absence of the DOG (logo in the corner) is a giveaway too. The logo is absent in SD on the 5 terrestrial channels.

If you have any doubt, the easiest way to tell whether you're watching BBC One HD or the local version (which will definitely be in SD) is to switch between them while a local BBC programme is on, say after the 6 O'clock News. When you're on BBC One HD you will get the red background screens or random clips or national sports news. When you're on your local BBC One (SD) feed it will be the appropriate local news.

Also, I don't see any regional variation channels on the Freesat lineup? On Sky your local channel is mapped on to channel 1 (BBC1 NW in my case) but the other regions are available with a high channel number.

Maybe the arrangement is different on Freesat? I'm far from sure as I'm not a Freesat user - just terrestrial (Freeview HD) and Sky HD.

Do you have the model number of your TV?

Otherwise I can't think of a technical reason why you're not seeing the difference between SD and HD - unless it really is your eyesight. Sorry!
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Old 20-12-2016, 13:16
grahamlthompson
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Well, I'm not really familiar with Freesat's channel lineup, though I have just looked it up and the channel numbers you gave are correct.

Is it possible the TV is automatically mapping equivalent HD channels, where available, to the numbers used for SD? So that you are really watching HD and when choosing, say CH4, you get CH4 HD?

Actually the presence or absence of the DOG (logo in the corner) is a giveaway too. The logo is absent in SD on the 5 terrestrial channels.

If you have any doubt, the easiest way to tell whether you're watching BBC One HD or the local version (which will definitely be in SD) is to switch between them while a local BBC programme is on, say after the 6 O'clock News. When you're on BBC One HD you will get the red background screens or random clips or national sports news. When you're on your local BBC One (SD) feed it will be the appropriate local news.

Also, I don't see any regional variation channels on the Freesat lineup? On Sky your local channel is mapped on to channel 1 (BBC1 NW in my case) but the other regions are available with a high channel number.

Maybe the arrangement is different on Freesat? I'm far from sure as I'm not a Freesat user - just terrestrial (Freeview HD) and Sky HD.

Do you have the model number of your TV?

Otherwise I can't think of a technical reason why you're not seeing the difference between SD and HD - unless it really is your eyesight. Sorry!
Permissable regional channels are also on the Freesat epg (Like Sky you only have two ITV SD your local regional one and London (due to AD being only available on the London Variant).

On a HD box 105 Channel 5 HD replaces Channel 5 SD so you can't watch Channel 5 in SD on a HD Freesat box. The same applies to 209 NHK WORLD TV

HD channels

102 BBC Two HD
105 Channel 5 HD
106 BBC One HD
107 BBC Four HD
111 ITV HD
120 S4C HD
126 Channel 4 HD
200 BBC NEWS HD
206 RT HD
209 NHK WORLD HD
600 CBBC HD
601 CBeebies HD
691 DAYSTAR TV HD
972 BBC ONE HD (England)
973 BBC 1 Scot HD
976 BBC 1 Wales HD
978 BBC 1 NI HD

Regional Channels

950 BBC 1 London
951 BBC 1 CI
952 BBC 1 E Mids
953 BBC 1 East (E)
954 BBC 1 East (W)
955 BBC 1 N West
956 BBC 1 NE & C
957 BBC 1 NI
958 BBC 1 Oxford
959 BBC 1 S East
960 BBC 1 Scotland
961 BBC 1 South
962 BBC 1 S West
963 BBC 1 W Mids
964 BBC 1 Wales
965 BBC 1 West
966 BBC 1 Yorks
967 BBC 1 EYrks&L
968 BBC 2 England
969 BBC 2 NI
970 BBC 2 Scotland
971 BBC 2 Wales
972 BBC ONE HD (England)
973 BBC 1 Scot HD
974 Channel 4
975 Channel 4 + 1
976 BBC 1 Wales HD
977 ITV LONDON
978 BBC 1 NI HD
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Old 20-12-2016, 13:23
Mark C
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Permissable regional channels are also on the Freesat epg (Like Sky you only have two ITV SD your local regional one and London (due to AD being only available on the London Variant).

On a HD box 105 Channel 5 HD replaces Channel 5 SD so you can't watch Channel 5 in SD on a HD Freesat box. The same applies to 209 NHK WORLD TV

HD channels

102 BBC Two HD

106 BBC One HD
Doesn't affect 'GDK', but slightly different arrangements outside of England.

There the 'local' BBC 1 is available in HD, so that takes 101, but because there are local versions of BBC 2, but not in HD, the SD version takes 102, so I think BBC 2 HD (which is the England version) is on 106.

Also I think UTV HD takes 103 ?
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Old 20-12-2016, 19:32
misar
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As usual we have a string of posters in defence of buying the latest, most expensive TV tech now - this time it is 4K, HDR, OLED, .... Sadly they simply don't get the point.

The point is not whether they notice the difference made by the latest tech or whether anyone could see it if they look carefully. The real point is that most users simply don't care. In this case provided the picture looks good to them they sit back and enjoy the programme. If they enjoy watching a modest screen size at a distance which is comfortable in their room there is no reason to worry whether it is SD or HD although as I pointed out earlier the vast majority of UK FTA output is still not on an HD channel.

There will always be those obsessed with having state of the art tech at almost any price and good luck to them, especially if the rest of us can have the benefit later. But they should accept that they are the minority, not the main stream - and that the rest of us are normal, not too incompetent, lazy or sad to recognise the wonders we are missing.
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Old 20-12-2016, 21:09
Gilbertoo
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As usual we have a string of posters in defence of buying the latest, most expensive TV tech now - this time it is 4K, HDR, OLED, .... Sadly they simply don't get the point.

The point is not whether they notice the difference made by the latest tech or whether anyone could see it if they look carefully. The real point is that most users simply don't care. In this case provided the picture looks good to them they sit back and enjoy the programme. If they enjoy watching a modest screen size at a distance which is comfortable in their room there is no reason to worry whether it is SD or HD although as I pointed out earlier the vast majority of UK FTA output is still not on an HD channel.

There will always be those obsessed with having state of the art tech at almost any price and good luck to them, especially if the rest of us can have the benefit later. But they should accept that they are the minority, not the main stream - and that the rest of us are normal, not too incompetent, lazy or sad to recognise the wonders we are missing.
Why are you so confident that most people don't care?
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Old 20-12-2016, 21:19
GDK
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As usual we have a string of posters in defence of buying the latest, most expensive TV tech now - this time it is 4K, HDR, OLED, .... Sadly they simply don't get the point.

The point is not whether they notice the difference made by the latest tech or whether anyone could see it if they look carefully. The real point is that most users simply don't care. In this case provided the picture looks good to them they sit back and enjoy the programme. If they enjoy watching a modest screen size at a distance which is comfortable in their room there is no reason to worry whether it is SD or HD although as I pointed out earlier the vast majority of UK FTA output is still not on an HD channel.

There will always be those obsessed with having state of the art tech at almost any price and good luck to them, especially if the rest of us can have the benefit later. But they should accept that they are the minority, not the main stream - and that the rest of us are normal, not too incompetent, lazy or sad to recognise the wonders we are missing.
Did you actually read anything I posted? I didn't claim anyone was "sad" for not wanting the same thing as me. I didn't claim anyone was incompetent or lazy because they're not an early adopter. I didn't claim early adopters are the mainstream either.

I'm also not trying to persuade anyone that being an early adopter is the right thing to do, only trying to explain my reasons for my choice. Each to their own.

I already understand and accept your "real" point, but sadly you seem to have completely missed my point.

I'm at a loss to understand who your rant is aimed at on this forum. You seem to be defending (in quite a disparaging and insulting manner) where no attack was made as far as I'm concerned. Whether or not to adopt early is a decision purely for the individual and a personal choice. There is no choice that's right for everyone, only what's right for that person.

To belittle others simply for having a different opinion or interest is wrong in my book.
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Old 21-12-2016, 12:38
Chris Frost
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Yesterday I installed a Sony 65XD9305 4K/UHD HDR TV and I couldn't be more underwhelmed if I tried. £2000 TV this.
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Old 21-12-2016, 12:56
HHGTTG
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Yesterday I installed a Sony 65XD9305 4K/UHD HDR TV and I couldn't be more underwhelmed if I tried. £2000 TV this.
We'll we all hope that it enhances your life experience or at least the person for whom you installed it.
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Old 21-12-2016, 15:16
GDK
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Yesterday I installed a Sony 65XD9305 4K/UHD HDR TV and I couldn't be more underwhelmed if I tried. £2000 TV this.
Did you see it with a 4K, HDR source? The Man in the High Castle on Amazon, for example, or a UHD Blu Ray on UHD blu ray player? You'd see no improvement if the source is only HD (or not setup correctly).
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Old 21-12-2016, 17:17
Nigel Goodwin
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You'd see no improvement if the source is only HD (or not setup correctly).
Or if you view from too far away.
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Old 21-12-2016, 17:32
anthony david
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Just out of interest Nigel and knowing that Sony have a good reputation for upscaling, in your opinion does a normal Freeview HD broadcast picture look any better upscaled to 4K as opposed to being viewed on a convention HD one? There is of course no genuine extra detail but does Sony's upscaling process give a pleasing impression that there is?
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Old 23-12-2016, 08:50
Nigel Goodwin
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Just out of interest Nigel and knowing that Sony have a good reputation for upscaling, in your opinion does a normal Freeview HD broadcast picture look any better upscaled to 4K as opposed to being viewed on a convention HD one? There is of course no genuine extra detail but does Sony's upscaling process give a pleasing impression that there is?
Upscaling merely makes the picture fit the screen, it doesn't give you more resolution - but a good scaler (as used in Sony sets) makes a better job of it than a poor scaler.

4K sets don't enthuse me , but they look pretty good on HD because they are good sets, not because it's a 4K screen. A cheap 4K set gives a far inferior picture to a decent 2K set.

Even on the exceptionally good 4K demo signals you can't really see any improvement over a decent 2K set with them actually side by side - at any remotely reasonable viewing distance (and by 'remotely reasonable' I actually include far too close to be 'reasonable'!).
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Old 23-12-2016, 11:18
anthony david
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Upscaling merely makes the picture fit the screen, it doesn't give you more resolution - but a good scaler (as used in Sony sets) makes a better job of it than a poor scaler.

4K sets don't enthuse me , but they look pretty good on HD because they are good sets, not because it's a 4K screen. A cheap 4K set gives a far inferior picture to a decent 2K set.

Even on the exceptionally good 4K demo signals you can't really see any improvement over a decent 2K set with them actually side by side - at any remotely reasonable viewing distance (and by 'remotely reasonable' I actually include far too close to be 'reasonable'!).
Thank you Nigel, I only wondered because in my experience Sony TVs upscale well made DVDs, which not all are sadly, to look better than SD although of course in truth it is still just SD. It was for that reason that I asked and also the reason I limited my enquiries to the Sony brand which I know you have a lot of experience of.

Upscaling will never make SD look like HD or HD look like 4K but just as many films are still only available in DVD format, it is unlikely that much will be available in 4K for the foreseeable future so anything that appears to make an image look better, even if it is just an illusion, is always of interest. In this case it seems that any improvement is either none or negligible.
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Old 24-12-2016, 15:12
RichmondBlue
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You need to see the difference between early adopters who foolishly fall for the latest ploy to sell more kit with unwanted and unnecessary "upgrades" and trailing edgers who recognise real advances and sensibly wait for the price to come down before purchasing.

The UK's trailing edgers recognised real advances and could not get them fast enough once the price was reasonable: TV over wireless, colour over B&W, flat screen over CRT, larger (but still comfortable in a UK room) screens over the old 21" standard, etc.

4K will persist simply because it will become the norm at a normal price but why early adopt? We have large numbers of FTA commercial channels which don't even make use of current HD capability but they survive because the picture is viewable and most viewers choose channels by the programme content rather than appearance.

Some on here would have us believe trailing edgers are sad folk easily pleased. Actually they are the normal, sensible ones.
I think that's spot-on. To be honest, I've been both in my time. I used to be an early bird, always out to get the latest technological advances. Not just with tv's, but everything else as well. But it gradually dawned on me that I was the sad one. My cutting edge piece of equipment was soon out of date, improvements had been made and any early niggles had been sorted out. Usually, inside a year, something better had come along at a cheaper price.
Now I just wait. If something becomes the industry standard with all the associated software and programmes to go with it, I'll take the plunge. So I'm grateful to all the early adaptors, they pay for all the advancements in technology that I get to enjoy later.

On the 4k debate, I just don't think there's enough content around at the moment to justify the outlay. It might be different if I was desperate for a new TV, but my current Panasonic seems almost indestructible, even if it's small (37") by current standards.
And let's face, what do most of us watch 80% of the time ? Do we really need massive tv's and 4k unless it's for sport or movies ?
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