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Old 05-12-2016, 13:17
PhilH36
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In the post I received a card headed "Stop Smart Meters Now", which claimed, among other things:

That smart meters transmit data over unsecured networks which are vulnerable to hackers

That they emit dangerous levels of microwave radiation

That some American smart meters have exploded and caused fires

That they enable the utility companies to remotely lower your heating levels without your knowledge or consent

That utility companies and the government are lying in claiming that they are mandatory and you cannot refuse to have one.

The card also contained a website address, stopsmartmeters.org.uk.

Now the thing is that I have never, as far as I can recall, made any public comment on the internet or anywhere else about smart meters, so I have no idea why I was sent the card. Fair enough, it could just be a mass mailing being sent to multiple households BUT the card was contained in an ordinary white envelope which had my name and address handwritten and a normal postage stamp. If it was part of a mass mailing surely it would have been pre-franked and my name and address printed directly on the card and it wouldn't have been in an envelope.

Anyone else received one of these cards or know anything about them.
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Old 05-12-2016, 13:30
enna_g
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Not received one but I do know they are not mandatory as my supplier has been hassling me for months and eventually I had a normal meter fitted as I did not want smart meter. Apparently the licence had run out on the meter.
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Old 05-12-2016, 13:38
Andrue
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That smart meters transmit data over unsecured networks which are vulnerable to hackers
True but probably low risk to the customer as they operate on a separate network.
That they emit dangerous levels of microwave radiation
Drivel. They use the mobile phone network to communicate back to their base station. They are no more dangerous to human health (ie;not at all) than mobile phones. Less on average because I don't think they transmit continuously but rather package a certain number of readings and send them in a single burst.
That some American smart meters have exploded and caused fires
Might be true but irrelevant unless the UK is going to get the same model of smart meter and the manufacturer is known not to have addressed the fault.
That they enable the utility companies to remotely lower your heating levels without your knowledge or consent
Unlikely. There might be an element of supply loading adjustment but it will be implemented in a way that the customer won't notice.
That utility companies and the government are lying in claiming that they are mandatory and you cannot refuse to have one.
The government has never claimed that they are mandatory. They are very keen on pushing them and don't go out of their way to say they are optional however.

Now the thing is that I have never, as far as I can recall, made any public comment on the internet or anywhere else about smart meters, so I have no idea why I was sent the card.
A mass mailing probably. I'm glad people are trying to get it stopped. Not because I believe any of the silly paranoia about health risks or losing control over my heating and appliances. I object to it because they aren't going to achieve what the government claims and will just end up costing us more money for little to no gain, at least in the short term. I also feel that the way the project has been managed and the implementation of the technology is poor.

So I object mainly because, like so much of what the government does, it's a waste of money, badly thought out and poorly executed.
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Old 05-12-2016, 15:32
spiney2
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Smart meters are being pursued, because, they allow things like running fridges only at late night, thus ''smoothing out'' the difference between peak and base loads, requiring less power stations to be built. But having said that, our greedy energy companies, in the real world, are run by accountants not engineers ......
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Old 05-12-2016, 15:35
spiney2
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At the current ''state of the art'', i personally wd not accept a smart meter. Maybe when ''the 2nd generation' appears .......
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Old 05-12-2016, 15:37
spiney2
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As an engineer, i don't think they give off ''microwaves'', but hacking is probably a real concern ......
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Old 05-12-2016, 15:39
Nilrem
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I love a good scare post about the dangers of a technology, especially when the post contains little or no factual information and shows a complete lack of any knowledge of the actual technology or that two devices with the same general name may be wildly different.

I actually laughed at "dangerous microwaves", it's less than a text every few hours on a mobile given that it's using the same network but not moving and it's a hell of a lot further away from the human body than any mobile phone is when in use (or just being carried).
Unless of course it's normal to sleep with a gas/electricity meter under the pillow.

Re the "adjust heating", simply not possible with the meters consumers are getting, they have no way to adjust what comes out from the meter compared to what goes in (except maybe a complete shut off).
They can't adjust the gas flow on a gas meter as doing so would be a danger (boilers etc all work with fairly specific pressure ranges), and have no interface with the actual heating controllers.

This bit sounds like someone has taken what the "Smart meters" that the likes of factories and warehouses can sign up for, and applied it to the residential "smart meters" without taking into account that the business versions require changing all sorts of other parts of the electrical and gas systems when fitted.
An example of this is if you run a business distributing frozen food and have several warehouse size freezers, the power company informs you they need to reduce load, and the system cuts power to some of the freezers, this isn't a problem for a few hours as they're designed to maintain a suitable temperature for hours anyway but it does mean you can't open them to take stuff out. For agreeing to this scheme the company gets paid some very hefty fees for what is (when it's planned for in advance) a fairly minor inconvenience.
The likes of plastics factories and other companies that use a lot of power for heat also get similar deals.


As fior exploding smart meters, IIRC one model in America had a problem, but the failure rate wasn't actually that different to some of the older dumb meters.
It's like saying that all mobile phones are massive fire risks because of the Galaxy Note 7,.
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Old 05-12-2016, 15:40
GusGus
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I would refuse to have one
Had enough problems when a new electric meter, and then a new gas one, and the hassle because the relevant meter departments did not know and requests for meter readings drove their computers into meltdown
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Old 05-12-2016, 15:42
Nilrem
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As an engineer, i don't think they give off ''microwaves'', but hacking is probably a real concern ......
IIRC they're no more prone to hacking than the normal mobile network, possibly less so.
I think they may be using a variant that is designed to be more secure as there are various "overlays" that can be applied to the different mobile phone standards to allow for things like emergency communications, railway communications and telemetric data from devices..

The actual meters themselves will also from what I've read store a set of readings for months/years in addition to what they transmit.
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Old 05-12-2016, 15:47
Nilrem
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I would refuse to have one
Had enough problems when a new electric meter, and then a new gas one, and the hassle because the relevant meter departments did not know and requests for meter readings drove their computers into meltdown
That actually sounds like the sort of situation the smart meters are meant to help stop, many of the current issues with traditional meters are down to things like data entry errors with misread or transposed numbers and people getting mixed up between the various types.
For example there are problems with the fact that there are still meters that give imperial readings, which means that the system has to know which ones are which and do a conversion to the metric standard.

Smart meters are meant to reduce at least two or three of the main issues with getting accurate and correct readings, whilst also being easier/cheaper to get the readings.
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Old 05-12-2016, 15:50
Andrue
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The most stupid thing to my mind is that there's little standardisation on the protocols. So when you change supplier it's likely your smart meter will stop being smart.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/m...suppliers.html

Supposedly resolved as of October according to that article but why on Earth was it not standardised from day one? Stupid.
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Old 05-12-2016, 18:03
An Thropologist
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I don't have a smart meter and regard it as one of those 'look like we are doing something' initiatives. A bit like the low energy light bulbs the energy companies insisted on giving us some years ago. I have a cupboard full and suspect I won't use most of them now that low energy LED technology has arrived. I wonder what the environmental impact was of manufacturing, distributing and eventualy disposing of somethig I didn't want in the first place

Anyway I digress. I am a little perplexed as to know what someone hacking into my smart meter would do with the data they had mined. Why is knowing how much electricty I consume of value?
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Old 05-12-2016, 18:15
codeblue
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They are all about changing tarrifs at peak load times during the day.

Want to use electricity or gas between 5pm and 9pm, you will pay more!
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Old 05-12-2016, 18:24
blueblade
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Twice EoN have offered to fit me a smart meter, and twice they've failed to show up.

So I won't bother again. Make do with the old one.
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Old 05-12-2016, 18:34
Jellied Eel
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Smart meters are being pursued, because, they allow things like running fridges only at late night, thus ''smoothing out'' the difference between peak and base loads, requiring less power stations to be built.
Nope, they don't. To do that would require an appliance that could talk to the 'smart meter', or seperate mains wiring that the 'smart' meter could switch. A bit like the 'Economy 7' system introduced in 1978 for much less than the estimated £15bn for 'smart' meters.

The reality is 'smart' meters currently being installed are actually very dumb and do nothing more than remote meter reading, and disconnection if you don't pay. Or won't pay for a premium uninterruptable electricity supply.

They offer no consumer benefit and currently can complicate switching suppliers. One possible benefit would be if the meters included tariff rates and a button you could press to switch to the cheapest.. But for some strange reason, that's not seen as a benefit to the suppliers..
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Old 05-12-2016, 19:45
s2k
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They offer no consumer benefit and currently can complicate switching suppliers. One possible benefit would be if the meters included tariff rates and a button you could press to switch to the cheapest.. But for some strange reason, that's not seen as a benefit to the suppliers..
Mine displays the current tariff details and available alternatives though I don't think you can initiate a change with it. I'm on one of those 12 month fixed rate deals anyway so there's no point me mucking around with it right now. My provider always emails me the latest tariff details to compare.

I think the real benefit to users would be for those on pre-pay, since funds can be added by tapping a code into the controller, therefore doing away with the whole going to the shops with a fob nonsense.
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Old 05-12-2016, 20:01
Mr Dos
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I don't have a smart meter and regard it as one of those 'look like we are doing something' initiatives. A bit like the low energy light bulbs the energy companies insisted on giving us some years ago. I have a cupboard full and suspect I won't use most of them now that low energy LED technology has arrived. I wonder what the environmental impact was of manufacturing, distributing and eventualy disposing of somethig I didn't want in the first place

Anyway I digress. I am a little perplexed as to know what someone hacking into my smart meter would do with the data they had mined. Why is knowing how much electricty I consume of value?
IIRC that was a wheeze to claim back carbon offset tax (or whatever it's called). A few million CFL bulbs given away free looks - on paper - like a few million KWHs saved. In practice, they used up a lot of the earth's resources during production and ended up in the cupboard unused.

It's probably an urban myth, but I read somewhere that they were sending containers of the stupid things to third world villages that didn't even have electricity - just to balance the books. Not bad, as conspiracy theories go . . .
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Old 05-12-2016, 21:00
SmoggyTheTowny
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In the post I received a card headed "Stop Smart Meters Now", which claimed, among other things:

That smart meters transmit data over unsecured networks which are vulnerable to hackers
They use Mobile Networks, so are as secure as a mobile phone. Quite why people think someone would want to hack them I don't know. What are they going to do with meaningless energy usage data? Attempt the blackmail them over the amount of Electricity they use?

That they emit dangerous levels of microwave radiation
BS. People are far more at risk from the mobile phone in their pocket, their home Wifi signal (and neighbour's) and DECT phones.

That some American smart meters have exploded and caused fires
Which will have been for poor manufacturing of those particular units, this can happen with any electrical item including 'dumb' meters. It has nothing to do with them being smart.

That they enable the utility companies to remotely lower your heating levels without your knowledge or consent
Complete nonsense! Smart Meters CANNOT control any of your appliances. Why does anyone take any notice of the anti-smart meter conspiracy nutters when they come out with stupid things like this?
How will the meter alter settings on appliances when the only connection is 3 wires that provide nothing more than power?
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Old 05-12-2016, 21:06
SmoggyTheTowny
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Smart meters are being pursued, because, they allow things like running fridges only at late night, thus ''smoothing out'' the difference between peak and base loads, requiring less power stations to be built. But having said that, our greedy energy companies, in the real world, are run by accountants not engineers ......
Go on genius, please do inform us how they intend to do that when the meter can do nothing more than control whether the meter's output is on or off.

The claim they can control appliances is complete nonsense, always has been and always will be.
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Old 05-12-2016, 21:08
muggins14
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I've been pushing for one and am finally having one fitted in January. I don't want it to help me keep control of my electricity usage or anything like that, I want it so that I can now top-up my prepayment meter without leaving the house. It's that simple.

As for that mailing you received, sounds like another tin foil wearer.
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Old 05-12-2016, 21:09
That username
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Smart meters are being pursued, because, they allow things like running fridges only at late night, thus ''smoothing out'' the difference between peak and base loads, requiring less power stations to be built. But having said that, our greedy energy companies, in the real world, are run by accountants not engineers ......
off topic but why is electricity not cheaper at night automatically without having to fit another meter?
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Old 05-12-2016, 21:16
muggins14
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off topic but why is electricity not cheaper at night automatically without having to fit another meter?
If you are on Economy 7 or 10 there are cheap hours, mostly at night, when things like storage heaters will store their heat and yes, the rate is cheaper. Unfortunately the day rate is more expensive than you may be paying for a non-Economy 7, so all-in-all it's less cost-effective and you really have to be using at least 55% of your electricity in the 'cheap' hours (usually around midnight-7am) for it to work out cheaper.

You can ask your supplier to go onto Economy 7, but you will find you are paying more for your electricity as you would likely be using most of your electricity during the expensive hours.

ETA: All a smart meter does is tell you a lot of detail about what you are using so that you should, technically, be able to see what electricals you use that are using more electricity, perhaps enabling you to cut down or keep your heating lower - monitor your usage. You would really have to be very disciplined to make it work for you in this manner.
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Old 05-12-2016, 21:21
muggins14
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IIRC that was a wheeze to claim back carbon offset tax (or whatever it's called). A few million CFL bulbs given away free looks - on paper - like a few million KWHs saved. In practice, they used up a lot of the earth's resources during production and ended up in the cupboard unused.

It's probably an urban myth, but I read somewhere that they were sending containers of the stupid things to third world villages that didn't even have electricity - just to balance the books. Not bad, as conspiracy theories go . . .
I have a cupboard full of the bulbs as they were sent to Mum from Help the Aged and to us because of my daughter - I do use them, but not at any fast rate as the ones I installed when I moved in 12 years ago have never yet needed changing! I am happy to use them when they need changing though, I don't need to buy any for another 20 years at least
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Old 05-12-2016, 21:22
That username
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If you are on Economy 7 or 10 there are cheap hours, mostly at night, when things like storage heaters will store their heat and yes, the rate is cheaper. Unfortunately the day rate is more expensive than you may be paying for a non-Economy 7, so all-in-all it's less cost-effective and you really have to be using at least 55% of your electricity in the 'cheap' hours (usually around midnight-7am) for it to work out cheaper.

You can ask your supplier to go onto Economy 7, but you will find you are paying more for your electricity as you would likely be using most of your electricity during the expensive hours.

ETA: All a smart meter does is tell you a lot of detail about what you are using so that you should, technically, be able to see what electricals you use that are using more electricity, perhaps enabling you to cut down or keep your heating lower - monitor your usage. You would really have to be very disciplined to make it work for you in this manner.
I know, well not heard of economy 10 but we are for ever told electricity is cheaper to generate at night and difficulties of peak use, so why is electricity not just cheaper at night as standard, then washing machines, dish washers and so on could be run at night taking rhe pressure off generating power during the day.
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Old 05-12-2016, 21:27
muggins14
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I know, well not heard of economy 10 but we are for ever told electricity is cheaper to generate at night and difficulties of peak use, so why is electricity not just cheaper at night as standard, then washing machines, dish washers and so on could be run at night taking rhe pressure off generating power during the day.
I'm on Economy 7 and, as I said, it may be cheaper at night but the daytime rate is a lot higher than your rate would be, so it's not really cheaper at all. A bit of a con for people like me who use prepayment meters due to budgeting and credit history.

One thing you will find is that you keep the household and neighbours pretty unhappy if you wash your clothes and run other loud machinery at night - I had to stop using my washing-machine at 2am due to complaints.

If everybody's electricity were cheaper at night as standard, they would all need a meter that could do the dual times/rates, the cost of it would likely rise as it's sold as a cheaper system (but isn't) and the electricity companies would doubtless increase the daytime rate for everybody. It isn't a cheaper system, it's just sold as such. I pay £40 a week electricity on Economy 7 prepayment meter - all the heating being electric (and fitted by the housing association, who will not fit storage heaters in bedrooms, so they are convector heaters - but I believe most electric heating is more expensive than gas. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong).
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