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Old 05-12-2016, 21:28
Jellied Eel
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Quite why people think someone would want to hack them I don't know. What are they going to do with meaningless energy usage data? Attempt the blackmail them over the amount of Electricity they use?
I dunno, how much is the contents of your freezer worth? Or what might happen if you could turn supplies off, then on again rapidly? Or a town. Some can be prevented by disallowing rapid cycling, others might be harder if the devices get compromised. Then the risks may be from malicious hackers doing it for the lolz, to more organised attacks against larger populations for extortion.

But if meters do get compromised, then updating or replacing them would likely be rather expensive.

How will the meter alter settings on appliances when the only connection is 3 wires that provide nothing more than power?
Well, I'm typing this via a device connected to an Ethernet port plugged into a mains socket. There are various schemes for powerline transmission, so assuming standardisation, meters could communicate with appliances the same way. But those meters and appliances don't exist yet, and potentially replacing all your stuff so someone can remotely disconnect it is an expensive solution to a problem that's already possible via 3rd party gizmos and apps.
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Old 05-12-2016, 21:56
muggins14
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I dunno, how much is the contents of your freezer worth? Or what might happen if you could turn supplies off, then on again rapidly? Or a town. Some can be prevented by disallowing rapid cycling, others might be harder if the devices get compromised. Then the risks may be from malicious hackers doing it for the lolz, to more organised attacks against larger populations for extortion.

But if meters do get compromised, then updating or replacing them would likely be rather expensive.



Well, I'm typing this via a device connected to an Ethernet port plugged into a mains socket. There are various schemes for powerline transmission, so assuming standardisation, meters could communicate with appliances the same way. But those meters and appliances don't exist yet, and potentially replacing all your stuff so someone can remotely disconnect it is an expensive solution to a problem that's already possible via 3rd party gizmos and apps.
SMART meters use radio waves, they are nothing to do with your internet.

FAQ's https://www.smartenergygb.org/en/faqs

I don't know if they can be hacked, but then I didn't know my router could be hacked until the other day! Either way, that didn't need replacing, just a security update from the ISP. If it were possible to do the same with the SMART meters, which I doubt but who knows, then I can only imagine the situation would be similar.

The meters don't communicate with your electrical appliances, they only measure your electrical usage, much as your current meter does.
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Old 05-12-2016, 22:15
Bill Clinton
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I've been pushing for one and am finally having one fitted in January. I don't want it to help me keep control of my electricity usage or anything like that, I want it so that I can now top-up my prepayment meter without leaving the house. It's that simple.

As for that mailing you received, sounds like another tin foil wearer.
I have pre pay Gas & Electricity with British Gas and that has a fob you can take to shops, but they've also provided USB devices so I can top up both the gas card and the electricity fob over the internet from the PC, it's how it's mostly done. Always good though sometimes to have a reason to get out the house and meet someone. I'm not sure what the benefit of having a smart meter instead would be, someone from EDF Energy I think it was cold called me today and said that although they didn't have a standing charge, they charged 1p more for Gas than British Gas or something and he was trying to make out that it's a better deal.
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Old 05-12-2016, 22:42
Jellied Eel
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SMART meters use radio waves, they are nothing to do with your internet.
Perhaps not your Internet

But yes, it'll use radio.. But it's also going to be the UK's largest network given every electricity and gas meter is supposed to connect to it. But I prefer comments from chaps like this-

https://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/...conomics-mooc/

Over the past fifteen years, we’ve come to realise that many information security failures arise from poor incentives. If Alice guards a system while Bob pays the cost of failure, things can be expected to go wrong.

Although in this case, Alice is that well known and much loved public sector contractor, Capita.. And Bob is everyone else.


I don't know if they can be hacked, but then I didn't know my router could be hacked until the other day! Either way, that didn't need replacing, just a security update from the ISP. If it were possible to do the same with the SMART meters, which I doubt but who knows, then I can only imagine the situation would be similar.
Pretty much everything can be hacked, depending on effort required and potential reward. One class-based attack would be to simply send your own software update to 30m+ 'smart' meters, then an email to the DCC asking if they'd like the key to unlock them again.. For a reasonable fee, of course. And if you can't update, then the only solution would be to replace.. Which means reinstalling every vulnerable meter.

The meters don't communicate with your electrical appliances, they only measure your electrical usage, much as your current meter does.
That's the thing. If they were 'smart', they could. But they're not, so it's just a $100bn+ jolly across the EU, who mandated these things and made the suppliers very happy.

(and by suppliers, I mean meter makers and those that stand to profit from providing services. The energy suppliers aren't entirely keen.)

ps.. see also-

http://resources.infosecinstitute.co...gbee-networks/
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Old 05-12-2016, 22:48
muggins14
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I have pre pay Gas & Electricity with British Gas and that has a fob you can take to shops, but they've also provided USB devices so I can top up both the gas card and the electricity fob over the internet from the PC, it's how it's mostly done. Always good though sometimes to have a reason to get out the house and meet someone. I'm not sure what the benefit of having a smart meter instead would be, someone from EDF Energy I think it was cold called me today and said that although they didn't have a standing charge, they charged 1p more for Gas than British Gas or something and he was trying to make out that it's a better deal.
When I was with Scottish Power I could have had one of the USB things to top up my key over the net, but they wanted me to pay for the device.
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Old 05-12-2016, 23:10
_ben
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The claim they can control appliances is complete nonsense, always has been and always will be.
This was supposed to be one of the main reasons for getting a smart meter. We were going to have heating and refrigeration that could turn itself off for a few minutes when everyone switched on their kettles during the ad break. We were going to have washing machines that could wait until electricity gets really cheap overnight before switching on. It was going to be great, demand management would mean all that dirty polluting coal-powered baseload generation could be decommissioned. As far as I'm aware, they haven't even standardised a control protocol yet, let alone incorporated it into any appliances (or smart meters).
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Old 05-12-2016, 23:18
_ben
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Quite why people think someone would want to hack them I don't know.
You're not thinking like a hacker. Recently a vulnerability was discovered in the routers that ISPs send out to their customers, within days millions of them had been hacked and were being used to launch denial of service attacks. If I've remembered the details correctly, one of the first things the hack does is stop the router receiving updates, making it difficult for ISPs to patch the vulnerability. In answer to your question, hackers will be falling over themselves to find a way to hack these things in their millions in an attempt to bring down or at least disrupt the national grid.
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Old 06-12-2016, 00:09
evil c
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The most stupid thing to my mind is that there's little standardisation on the protocols. So when you change supplier it's likely your smart meter will stop being smart.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/m...suppliers.html

Supposedly resolved as of October according to that article but why on Earth was it not standardised from day one? Stupid.
In this month's Which? (p9) they said that the Dept. for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy has missed the latest deadline of 31st Oct for the offficial wireless smart meter network switch-on, and Which? aren't holding their breath for the next switch-on date announcement.
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Old 06-12-2016, 00:47
barbeler
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I was due to have one but OVO has cancelled the date twice now. I don't think they really want to fit them on low consumption houses.
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Old 06-12-2016, 04:08
Nilrem
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off topic but why is electricity not cheaper at night automatically without having to fit another meter?
Because with the older meter technology you had to have two meters (either completely separate or possibly combined in one housing) as from memory they worked by recording the usage only during their hours with a radio receiver initiating the switch between them..
So one meter recorded during the day, then the other recorded at night, as there was no way for them to remember at what time the electricity was used (they were simple electromechanical devices).
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Old 06-12-2016, 05:40
Scots rool
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I have one installed, & am enjoying the benefit of free electricity/gas on a Sunday 9-00 - 5-00.
I do take full advantage of it by doing any laundry & cooking meals for the coming week, & also hoovering the house.
It's actually interesting to see how much power certain appliances use, & what their cost is.
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Old 06-12-2016, 15:12
PhilH36
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I love a good scare post about the dangers of a technology, especially when the post contains little or no factual information and shows a complete lack of any knowledge of the actual technology or that two devices with the same general name may be wildly different.
Why does anyone take any notice of the anti-smart meter conspiracy nutters when they come out with stupid things like this?
Like I said I've never made any public comment for or against smart meters and I have no opinion on them one way or the other, I was just reporting what was on the card.
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Old 06-12-2016, 15:31
thefairydandy
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I'm on Economy 7 and, as I said, it may be cheaper at night but the daytime rate is a lot higher than your rate would be, so it's not really cheaper at all. A bit of a con for people like me who use prepayment meters due to budgeting and credit history.

One thing you will find is that you keep the household and neighbours pretty unhappy if you wash your clothes and run other loud machinery at night - I had to stop using my washing-machine at 2am due to complaints.

If everybody's electricity were cheaper at night as standard, they would all need a meter that could do the dual times/rates, the cost of it would likely rise as it's sold as a cheaper system (but isn't) and the electricity companies would doubtless increase the daytime rate for everybody. It isn't a cheaper system, it's just sold as such. I pay £40 a week electricity on Economy 7 prepayment meter - all the heating being electric (and fitted by the housing association, who will not fit storage heaters in bedrooms, so they are convector heaters - but I believe most electric heating is more expensive than gas. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong).
It's always hard to compare like for like with heating because it comes down to personal preference and comfort levels, plus housing variations.

However, I have lived in houses and flats with Economy 7 and it worked out really cheaply for me, as I was out all day, and the storage heaters stayed warm all day, and I had no problem adjusting the temperature to what I wanted. It worked out at £35/month. The next place with two of us cost about £40/month.

My current house is gas/electric combined, and although it’s only a little bit bigger than our last place (and we don’t put the heating in the extra rooms anyway because we don’t spend time in there), it costs £65/month as standard.
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Old 06-12-2016, 15:59
spiney2
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off topic but why is electricity not cheaper at night automatically without having to fit another meter?
because, old type meters don't know the time!
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Old 06-12-2016, 16:55
gwynne
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The most stupid thing to my mind is that there's little standardisation on the protocols. So when you change supplier it's likely your smart meter will stop being smart.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/m...suppliers.html

Supposedly resolved as of October according to that article but why on Earth was it not standardised from day one? Stupid.
Apparently the whole project is basically a complete and utter mess!
None of the meters being fitted meet the initial spec that was agreed before the project started.
Different power suppliers are fitting different meters-most of which are incompatible with each other.
The cost is horrendous and the most expensive in the world-no surprise there then!
Although constant 'meddling' has created the most complex smart meters in the world they are capeable of doing little else other than sending your readings automatically.
There are many,many reports of problems with readings-householders not agreeing with the bills sent out based on the smart meter readings.
I could go on but basically the whole project has been made grossly over complex,horrendously expensive and has achieved very little.
It is likely that once the correctly speced meters are produced then millions of existing smart meters will have to be changed!
I also read an interesting report wherby some poor householder was losing her gass and electric due to her smart metres 'cutting off' the supplies?
Apparently there is a valve fitted with these devices-any one know if this is true?
I was scheduled to have these meters fitted but after a lot of reading etc cancelled the installation!
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Old 06-12-2016, 16:58
Tassium
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The thinking behind smart meters is flawed in my view.

People just don't waste electricity. So there is no scope to reduce usage by making people aware of how much it all costs on a hourly basis.

All the smart meter will do is create greater resentment against the utility firms.
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Old 06-12-2016, 17:02
gwynne
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This was supposed to be one of the main reasons for getting a smart meter. We were going to have heating and refrigeration that could turn itself off for a few minutes when everyone switched on their kettles during the ad break. We were going to have washing machines that could wait until electricity gets really cheap overnight before switching on. It was going to be great, demand management would mean all that dirty polluting coal-powered baseload generation could be decommissioned. As far as I'm aware, they haven't even standardised a control protocol yet, let alone incorporated it into any appliances (or smart meters).
See my post number 40!
There are reports that these devices can switch your supplies completely 'off'.
A report in a recent paper said some poor householder was having problems with her smart meters switching off her supplies due to a fault!
Not sure whether the meters can be accesed remotely to swich the valves back on!
The potential of these things creating chaos does not bear thinking about!
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Old 06-12-2016, 17:03
tealady
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People just don't waste electricity.
Never heard of teenagers leaving the lights on everywhere?
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Old 06-12-2016, 17:17
bri160356
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Nope, they don't. To do that would require an appliance that could talk to the 'smart meter', or seperate mains wiring that the 'smart' meter could switch. A bit like the 'Economy 7' system introduced in 1978 for much less than the estimated £15bn for 'smart' meters.

The reality is 'smart' meters currently being installed are actually very dumb and do nothing more than remote meter reading, and disconnection if you don't pay. Or won't pay for a premium uninterruptable electricity supply.

They offer no consumer benefit and currently can complicate switching suppliers. One possible benefit would be if the meters included tariff rates and a button you could press to switch to the cheapest.. But for some strange reason, that's not seen as a benefit to the suppliers..
Smart meters offer a number benefits for the consumer:

• No need to submit your own readings and no more visits from the meter readers.
• Your gas/elec readings can be transmitted daily (mine are) and these usage figures are available to view online,… pretty much ‘real-time’.
• More accurate billing based on actual energy consumption,…not ‘historical’ estimates.

Here’s a few generic benefits:

• An increasing number of favourable tariffs that are exclusive to ‘smart meter’ customers only.
• “Smart meters will also enable 'smart grids'. A smart grid uses information and communications technology to monitor and control electricity generation and demand in near real-time.
The energy network operators will be able to use smart meter data to better plan and manage the UK's energy supply, matching supply and demand in a more efficient system
.” ….evidently.

According to British Gas there is no issue with changing energy supplier if you have ‘smart meters’. Energy suppliers cannot refuse you just because you have ‘smart-meters’. If the energy company does not yet have the technology to support them, the ‘smart-meters’ can simply be switched to ‘dumb-mode’.

All ‘smart-meters’ are compatible with any of the Energy companies who already have smart-meter technology up and running.

How the whole thing pans out is anybody’s guess though!....I’ve recently had Smart Meters fitted by British Gas so when I find out they’ve been lying to me (which probably won’t be long) I’ll let you know.
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Old 06-12-2016, 17:21
Tassium
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Smart meters offer nothing of genuine value to the public, the whole concept is crazy.

For business, yes of course it makes sense.
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Old 06-12-2016, 17:35
That username
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an i ask another dumb question but why do we need meters at all, we do not have meters for the telephone?
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Old 06-12-2016, 17:35
tealady
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I can't have a smart meter because my gas meter is outside but not installed in a suitable location.
So not that smart then.
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Old 06-12-2016, 17:39
tealady
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an i ask another dumb question but why do we need meters at all, we do not have meters for the telephone?
One involves connecting devices in both directions to random geographical areas via a central point, the other involves a basic one direction connection.
Although the quote above suggests that it might be possible
"A smart grid uses information and communications technology to monitor and control electricity generation and demand in near real-time. "
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Old 06-12-2016, 17:59
bri160356
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I can't have a smart meter because my gas meter is outside but not installed in a suitable location.
So not that smart then.
Just curious but what was the specific problem;...was it lack of radio signal?

...my gas and electricity 'smart meters' are outside, so to speak.
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Old 06-12-2016, 18:06
tealady
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Just curious but what was the specific problem;...was it lack of radio signal?

...my gas and electricity 'smart meters' are outside, so to speak.
It wasn't on a wall, but the meter is in a box that sits on the ground. Quite how this makes a difference is beyond me, but I have had no further emails from the supplier.
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