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Old 06-12-2016, 23:16
_ben
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See my post number 40!
There are reports that these devices can switch your supplies completely 'off'.
A report in a recent paper said some poor householder was having problems with her smart meters switching off her supplies due to a fault!
Not sure whether the meters can be accesed remotely to swich the valves back on!
The potential of these things creating chaos does not bear thinking about!
Yes, they are designed so that the supplier can cut you off remotely if you don't pay your bill (I assume they can switch you back on remotely too). This of course is one of the ways a hacker could attack the grid.
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:28
bri160356
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See my post number 40!
There are reports that these devices can switch your supplies completely 'off'.
A report in a recent paper said some poor householder was having problems with her smart meters switching off her supplies due to a fault!
Not sure whether the meters can be accesed remotely to swich the valves back on!
The potential of these things creating chaos does not bear thinking about!
I would be surprised if it was both meters that were faulty;…the gas and electricity ’smart meters’ operate completely independently of each other.

The electricity ‘smart meter’ is powered by the mains electricity;…the gas ‘smart meter’ is powered solely by its own internal battery.

The energy companies are under the same obligation to ensure that your gas/elect supply is maintained whether you are on ‘smart meters' or the old style meters,… and the ‘criteria’ for disconnecting a supply to an individual household is equally stringent.
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:33
MAW
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Smart meters offer a number benefits for the consumer:

• No need to submit your own readings and no more visits from the meter readers.
• Your gas/elec readings can be transmitted daily (mine are) and these usage figures are available to view online,… pretty much ‘real-time’.
• More accurate billing based on actual energy consumption,…not ‘historical’ estimates.

Here’s a few generic benefits:

• An increasing number of favourable tariffs that are exclusive to ‘smart meter’ customers only.
• “Smart meters will also enable 'smart grids'. A smart grid uses information and communications technology to monitor and control electricity generation and demand in near real-time.
The energy network operators will be able to use smart meter data to better plan and manage the UK's energy supply, matching supply and demand in a more efficient system
.” ….evidently.

According to British Gas there is no issue with changing energy supplier if you have ‘smart meters’. Energy suppliers cannot refuse you just because you have ‘smart-meters’. If the energy company does not yet have the technology to support them, the ‘smart-meters’ can simply be switched to ‘dumb-mode’.

All ‘smart-meters’ are compatible with any of the Energy companies who already have smart-meter technology up and running.

How the whole thing pans out is anybody’s guess though!....I’ve recently had Smart Meters fitted by British Gas so when I find out they’ve been lying to me (which probably won’t be long) I’ll let you know.
They are lying to you. I have British Gas smart meters, and NPower cannot read them.
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:43
bri160356
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Yes, they are designed so that the supplier can cut you off remotely if you don't pay your bill (I assume they can switch you back on remotely too). This of course is one of the ways a hacker could attack the grid.
How does switching off an individuals household gas/elec supply equate to ‘attacking the grid;…and why are these hackers not attacking the grid already ?

…just curious;…I don’t really know much about hacking.
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:58
MAW
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How does switching off an individuals household gas/elec supply equate to ‘attacking the grid;…and why are these hackers not attacking the grid already ?

…just curious;…I don’t really know much about hacking.
Theoretically a hacker could cut you off for the LOLz. In practise, as its n the mobile phone network, its immensely difficult to acccess. You'd find it easier to hack the supplier. As that could be done with or without smart meters, the danger of a hack attack is not really changed.
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:19
bri160356
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They are lying to you. I have British Gas smart meters, and NPower cannot read them.
...didn't take long did it! ....when it comes to bullshitting their customers the energy suppliers are on a par with mobile phone companies.

You can change to an Npower tariff; however, if you have B.Gas smart meters they will need to be switched to ‘dumb mode’..i.e. they’ll operate exactly like the old style meters.

According to Npower the problem lies with the differing technology that the energy companies use to operate the functionality,…. and not with the meters per se.

They reckon the new technology that will allow any energy company to operate any ‘smart meter’ is being rolled out from January 2017;

….I wonder how much truth there is in that statement ‽
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:22
MAW
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They're a step better than dumb meters. We have access to the usage and meter reading data. NPower don't. We can monitor our own consumption.
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:22
njp
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The claim they can control appliances is complete nonsense, always has been and always will be.
That claim in the OP (along with all the other claims in the OP!) is indeed complete nonsense, but the "vision" for a smart grid is that load-shedding could take place (including in domestic premises) in a way that could dynamically balance the grid without adversely impacting consumers. The canonical example of this is refrigeration: it makes very little difference to a fridge or a freezer if it is asked (and agrees) to switch off (or avoid starting) the compressor for a short while, but aggregated over a large number of smart appliances, the reduction in load could be enough to smooth out peaks in demand, thereby avoiding the need to bring expensive additional generating capacity online or even - in the worst case - power being cut completely to some areas.

So that all makes sense in a "wouldn't it be nice" kind of way. But of course current generation smart meters get you nowhere near that vision, and it doesn't work anyway unless they are talking to equally smart appliances. And reliability and security become even more important.

And having spoken to a friend who investigates the security and interoperability of this kind of thing for a living, I won't be allowing a current generation smart meter in my home. He tells me that the SMETS2 specification is looking much better.
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:26
molliepops
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I'm just waiting for the technology that means everyone really can have a smart meter, the adverts say we can now but that's not true. I don't know how serious they are about making them accebible to everyone but they have a way to go to acheive that claim.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:02
bri160356
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They're a step better than dumb meters. We have access to the usage and meter reading data. NPower don't. We can monitor our own consumption.
That's true.

I’ve recently changed to a B.Gas tariff that’s fixed till Dec.2017 so hopefully(???) the technology will be better by then;...not holding my breath on that one though.

I swopped tariff via the MoneySavingExpert ‘energy club collective switch’ so it will probably do till then.

P.S. on the subject of ‘tariffs’ this snippet of information could be useful to anyone considering switching Energy supplier.

“In accordance with new Ofgem regulations, energy suppliers must send you notice about your plan's upcoming end date 42 - 49 days before the end of your plan.
‘Exit/Cancellation Fees’ (typically £30 per plan) do not apply once the letter has been received.


The Energy companies themselves don’t appear to be keen on promoting this new regulation;…..can’t think why.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:03
mick r
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EU member states are required to implement smart meters under the 2009 Third Energy Package wherever it is cost-effective to do so, with the goal to replace 80% of electricity meters with smart meters by 2020. The 80% target applies to both households and commercial buildings. But progress has been sluggish, with few countries having completed their roll-outs and a number of nations – most notably Germany – having so far decided against a nation-wide deployment of smart meters. The UK has a commitment to the smart meters roll-out by 2020 .

https://ec.europa.eu/energy/en/topic...ids-and-meters

https://www.gov.uk/government/speech...-place-by-2020
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:12
Andy2
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"Dangerous levels of microwave radiation". Strewth, is there no level to which some people will not stoop? No worse than a router or at worst a mobile phone, and it's not exactly held against the side of your head, is it?
I don't want a smart meter, but only because I've read that there have been many battery failures requiring replacement. I don't fancy the billing disagreements arising from missing data, the (possible) cut-off of supply(?) and the waiting-in for an engineer to come round with a new battery. Our old-fashioned mechanical meter works just fine.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:27
bri160356
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"Dangerous levels of microwave radiation". Strewth, is there no level to which some people will not stoop? No worse than a router or at worst a mobile phone, and it's not exactly held against the side of your head, is it?
I don't want a smart meter, but only because I've read that there have been many battery failures requiring replacement. I don't fancy the billing disagreements arising from missing data, the (possible) cut-off of supply(?) and the waiting-in for an engineer to come round with a new battery. Our old-fashioned mechanical meter works just fine.
It’s just the gas ‘smart-meter’ that runs on battery;

….but have no fear, all will be well;…this from the B.Gas website:

“Gas smart meters are powered by a battery. The battery, which is protected by security seals, cannot be accessed by customers because of safety reasons and can only be replaced by someone who is suitably authorised and qualified.
The battery will last for several years before a replacement is required, and the gas meter will send us a message several months before the battery goes flat. This allows us to schedule a battery replacement by authorised and suitably qualified Smart Energy Experts well before the battery expires.


...make of that what you will!
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:40
Andrue
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Theoretically a hacker could cut you off for the LOLz. In practise, as its n the mobile phone network, its immensely difficult to acccess. You'd find it easier to hack the supplier. As that could be done with or without smart meters, the danger of a hack attack is not really changed.
Indeed. Right now a lot of us could have our gas cut off by any passing numpty. In my experience most gas supply housings don't even have a functional lock. I have to place my dustbins against mine to stop the wind blowing it open. And cutting off water isn't much harder.
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Old 07-12-2016, 14:22
njp
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Indeed. Right now a lot of us could have our gas cut off by any passing numpty. In my experience most gas supply housings don't even have a functional lock. I have to place my dustbins against mine to stop the wind blowing it open. And cutting off water isn't much harder.
That misses the point somewhat. An attack on one meter just isn't interesting. An attack on lots of meters is potentially very interesting. And very costly.
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Old 07-12-2016, 14:44
bri160356
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That misses the point somewhat. An attack on one meter just isn't very interesting. An attack on lots of meters is potentially very interesting. And very costly.
On a scale of 1 to 10, how likely is an attack by hackers?

…what if they attack on Christmas day when I’m cooking me’ turkey !

I’ve got B.Gas smart meters and this thread has scared me shitless.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:06
NaturalWorrier
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I won' getting a smart meter.

I can see the arguments from both sides.

However, lets be practical for a second.

The biggest difference I can see is that the meter readings are sent regularly to the supplier. This then gives you two advantages:

1 - There is no need for the company to employ people to read meters (or not have as many). For you, it means you no longer have to let meter readers into your home and it also means you no longer have to send them accurate meter readings to avoid estimated bills. I get that.

2 - This also gives good data for both you and the supplier to know how much gas or electricity you are using when.

I get the arguments for 1, but for me quite frankly the benefits of avoiding having to submit a meter reading twice a year are negligible.

For number 2, the argument is that I can then see what devices I am using excessively, I can reduce my electricity and gas usage and so lower bills. Practically speaking, I won't have time to look in detail at the stats it throws out and even if it did, I wouldn't change how I use my energy usage enough to make it worth while saving money. I am too stuck in my ways and too lazy to change. So all this will achieve is it will give the energy companies enough data in order to justify charging me more for the energy I currently use.


So in summary, all I can see that smart meters will give me is a fancy graph, with one meter reader now being out of work, as well as me paying more for my energy bills.

No thanks.
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:13
Andrue
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Take a reasonably sensible idea, get the government involved and watch it fail.
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:14
bri160356
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I won' getting a smart meter.

I can see the arguments from both sides.

However, lets be practical for a second.

The biggest difference I can see is that the meter readings are sent regularly to the supplier. This then gives you two advantages:

1 - There is no need for the company to employ people to read meters (or not have as many). For you, it means you no longer have to let meter readers into your home and it also means you no longer have to send them accurate meter readings to avoid estimated bills. I get that.

2 - This also gives good data for both you and the supplier to know how much gas or electricity you are using when.

I get the arguments for 1, but for me quite frankly the benefits of avoiding having to submit a meter reading twice a year are negligible.

For number 2, the argument is that I can then see what devices I am using excessively, I can reduce my electricity and gas usage and so lower bills. Practically speaking, I won't have time to look in detail at the stats it throws out and even if it did, I wouldn't change how I use my energy usage enough to make it worth while saving money. I am too stuck in my ways and too lazy to change. So all this will achieve is it will give the energy companies enough data in order to justify charging me more for the energy I currently use.


So in summary, all I can see that smart meters will give me is a fancy graph, with one meter reader now being out of work, as well as me paying more for my energy bills.

No thanks.
I’ve never bothered with the little ‘home display unit’ save for the first day or so after my smart-meters were installed, TBH.

I guess the ‘home display unit’ can be useful for some households though,…especially if they were blissfully unaware just how much it costs to run power hungry items like electric showers et al;…. I’m sure some people have been majorly shocked once they learn the actual cost of letting their teenage kids spend so much time in the ‘10.5Kw’ shower.

However, I don’t quite get your point about the energy companies charging ‘smart-meter’ customers a premium simply because they are able monitor your energy usage accurately.
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:22
NaturalWorrier
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I’ve never bothered with the little ‘home display unit’ save for the first day or so after my smart-meters were installed, TBH.

I guess the ‘home display unit’ can be useful for some households though,…especially if they were blissfully unaware just how much it costs to run power hungry items like electric showers et al;…. I’m sure some people have been majorly shocked once they learn the actual cost of letting their teenage kids spend so much time in the ‘10.5Kw’ shower.

However, I don’t quite get your point about the energy companies charging ‘smart-meter’ customers a premium simply because they are able monitor your energy usage accurately.
Well my point was that if the company works out when demand is higher, my guess is that they will (eventually) charge a higher price for that period.

My bet is that they won't lower the price for the other times when demand is lower. Or if they do it won't be by enough to make up for the increased price at other times.

Of course this is pure speculation, but a company will use the information they receive to increase profits easily (as that is there goal).
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:31
bri160356
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Well my point was that if the company works out when demand is higher, my guess is that they will (eventually) charge a higher price for that period.

My bet is that they won't lower the price for the other times when demand is lower. Or if they do it won't be by enough to make up for the increased price at other times.

Of course this is pure speculation, but a company will use the information they receive to increase profits easily (as that is there goal).
The energy companies will continue to rob us blind at every opportunity, irrespective;…I don’t think they’ll just concentrate their efforts on ‘smart meter’ customers.
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:35
MAW
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On a scale of 1 to 10, how likely is an attack by hackers?

…what if they attack on Christmas day when I’m cooking me’ turkey !

I’ve got B.Gas smart meters and this thread has scared me shitless.
As I said, it's virtually impossible to hack the meter end of things, they'll have to hack British Gas. If it happens on Christmas Day, pop round to mine, our meter isn't connected to them.
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:38
Glyn W
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If you are on Economy 7 or 10 there are cheap hours, mostly at night, when things like storage heaters will store their heat and yes, the rate is cheaper. Unfortunately the day rate is more expensive than you may be paying for a non-Economy 7, so all-in-all it's less cost-effective and you really have to be using at least 55% of your electricity in the 'cheap' hours (usually around midnight-7am) for it to work out cheaper.

You can ask your supplier to go onto Economy 7, but you will find you are paying more for your electricity as you would likely be using most of your electricity during the expensive hours.

ETA: All a smart meter does is tell you a lot of detail about what you are using so that you should, technically, be able to see what electricals you use that are using more electricity, perhaps enabling you to cut down or keep your heating lower - monitor your usage. You would really have to be very disciplined to make it work for you in this manner.
Economy 7 and 10 are meant for people with storage heaters. If you have not got storage heaters, get off Economy 7/10 ASAP, it's costing you money.

The principle is this: just about the most expensive thing to do with your electricity supply is heat your home. A storage heater can use electricity supplied at night to heat up (basically) a load of bricks in your heater, which can then radiate that heat out through the day without being powered. It makes sense to use cheaper nighttime electricity to to that, (especially if you can use that same electricity to do other things, such as running a washing machine, that can be set on a timer) even if the electric you
use during the day for more mundane things is on a higher than normal rate, you usually come out on top. Not by much, but about 95% of the time it works out cheaper.

HOWEVER, if you do not have storage heaters (and they're not that common these days) but are on an Economy 7/10 tariff you are not only not using much of the cheap night rate electricity but you're ALSO heating your home with the much more expensive day rate electricity - and you are DEFINITELY onto a loser, contact your supplier IMMEDIATELY and get off the Economy 7/10 tariff!

I used to answer the phones for British Gas, and a lot of the people who I talked to who were on the Economy 7/10 didn't have storage heaters. What had usually happened was that the heaters were once storage heaters but then had been ripped out and replaced by a different type of heater - but no-one had thought to change the electric tariff and it had just carried on being cheap night/expensive day supply.

So, in summary - if you're on Economy 7/10 but don't have storage heaters...you're paying way over the odds for what you're using your electricity for. Get changed to a singe-rate tariff today!
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:44
bri160356
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As I said, it's virtually impossible to hack the meter end of things, they'll have to hack British Gas. If it happens on Christmas Day, pop round to mine, our meter isn't connected to them.
Thanks for the offer, but you’d have to put up with my mother-in-law;

…if any hackers ruined Xmas dinner she’d kill the fookin’ lot of ‘em.
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:48
Nilrem
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It’s just the gas ‘smart-meter’ that runs on battery;

….but have no fear, all will be well;…this from the B.Gas website:

“Gas smart meters are powered by a battery. The battery, which is protected by security seals, cannot be accessed by customers because of safety reasons and can only be replaced by someone who is suitably authorised and qualified.
The battery will last for several years before a replacement is required, and the gas meter will send us a message several months before the battery goes flat. This allows us to schedule a battery replacement by authorised and suitably qualified Smart Energy Experts well before the battery expires.


...make of that what you will!
It sounds like they've got the ability to monitor the voltage from the battery (in the same way things like smoke alarms do), in which case it's very simple for it to recognise that the battery is running down and issue an alert for replacement well in advance.
The PP3's from a smoke alarm that is chirping due to a low battery can often still power other love current devices for a while (as the smoke alarm will start giving you the warning when there is still power in the battery for a week or two's operation).
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