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Old 06-12-2016, 05:50
i4u
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Well it will be just the same as for non-EU nationals now. When we leave, EU citizens not already here will presumably have the same rights to come as say someone from the USA. That is if there is a vacancy that can't be filled domestically and there's someone suitable from abroad, they'll be allowed in.

That's the way it should be imo. If there's someone already here that can do the job, let them do it. We should only be bringing people in when that position can't be filled.
Are you going to up an administration to check there are no Brits available to do the work, who pays the taxpayer or the employer?

The complaint from small to medium sized companies was the time and cost of employing a non EU citizen and there is no guarantee they will be allowed into the country.

I have to say the elite have the British public well trained that they will happily accept a system that means the division between the haves and have not's grows wider.
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Old 06-12-2016, 05:57
Resonance
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Are you going to up an administration to check there are no Brits available to do the work, who pays the taxpayer or the employer?

The complaint from small to medium sized companies was the time and cost of employing a non EU citizen and there is no guarantee they will be allowed into the country.

I have to say the elite have the British public well trained that they will happily accept a system that means the division between the haves and have not's grows wider.
Well the whole point is it shouldn't be too easy to employ someone from abroad. If it is then companies just look abroad and try and get someone in for cheap. As for the elite having people well trained, generally speaking it's them that want easy access to cheap labour.
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Old 06-12-2016, 06:40
i4u
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Well the whole point is it shouldn't be too easy to employ someone from abroad. If it is then companies just look abroad and try and get someone in for cheap. As for the elite having people well trained, generally speaking it's them that want easy access to cheap labour.
So a hospital short of staff waits for how long to discover there is no British workers available or unwilling to do the work....1 month, 6 months a year?

Those it now have to advertise twice once in the UK and exhausted the search here, is permitted to advertise abroad. Who's going to monitor all this to make it difficult to employ staff, in public services who is going to pay?

Do you include Doctors & Nurses among the low paid where staff are imported from abroad for cheapness?

The British public have this bizarre notion led by certain newspapers that Public Service employees should be working for almost nothing, but then complain the low pay and shortage of medical staff.

As for the government....Leave voters need to check what people like David Davis was writing how easy it is to leave the EU and compare that with his words as a minister that it is 'complex'. Compare his strong stance when he first became a minister and his opinion expressed now he is faced with the reality.

We've already gone from, 'Brexit means Brexit' to 'Brexit may not mean Brexit'. By Febuary it could be "Brexit what Brexit".
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:03
noise747
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why cant everyone have ID cards. not everyone has a passport or wants one.
they are a good idea and will come sooner or later but the government should pay for them and not charge people to have them.
Twice before ID cards have been on the agenda and twice they have come to nothing, the Tories wanted aan ID card that was voluntary and that never happened, then Labour decided to get one going, but they took so long and was chucked out of office before it was in place and it cost the country millions.

Why should we have to have an I.d card in our own country? That will really give the police the excuse they want to check people, not that they need much of one now.
i have managed without an I.D card for 51 years, I think I can manage for the rest of my life, I would refuse to have one, just like I would have when Labour was going to introduce one.
the problem is, anything that can be used for good, can also be used for something that is not so good and having all that data in one place is not good and no doubt the government they would got some company like capita to run it.
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:12
Resonance
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So a hospital short of staff waits for how long to discover there is no British workers available or unwilling to do the work....1 month, 6 months a year?

Those it now have to advertise twice once in the UK and exhausted the search here, is permitted to advertise abroad. Who's going to monitor all this to make it difficult to employ staff, in public services who is going to pay?

Do you include Doctors & Nurses among the low paid where staff are imported from abroad for cheapness?
Doctors I wouldn't say are low paid. Nurses are certainly underpaid, so much so that a fair few go abroad to get a decent standard of living. We're training nurses, paying them poorly, they go abroad and then we wonder why we need to bring in replacements from even more poorly paid parts of the world.

The British public have this bizarre notion led by certain newspapers that Public Service employees should be working for almost nothing, but then complain the low pay and shortage of medical staff.
Some of the British public. The problem is that some who work in the poorly paid parts of the private sector look on decent public sector wages with jealousy, I don't blame them for that. What I'd like to see is those people's wages rise up to a decent level, not other people's to fall to meet them, which is what a lot seem to think should happen. Race to the bottom.

It's the same with benefits, people complain some people get more in benefits than people working. Instead of calling for wages to rise, they call for benefits to fall. So in the end the only people that win are those benefiting from cheap labour.

As for the government....Leave voters need to check what people like David Davis was writing how easy it is to leave the EU and compare that with his words as a minister that it is 'complex'. Compare his strong stance when he first became a minister and his opinion expressed now he is faced with the reality.

We've already gone from, 'Brexit means Brexit' to 'Brexit may not mean Brexit'. By Febuary it could be "Brexit what Brexit".
Have we? All I've seen is a few people getting excited because a Lib Dem won a seat in a heavily remain area and then fantasising about a soft Brexit because of it.
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Old 06-12-2016, 09:05
Aetius_Maralas
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why cant everyone have ID cards. not everyone has a passport or wants one.
they are a good idea and will come sooner or later but the government should pay for them and not charge people to have them.
Given the Governments (well any government really) track record with IT project do you honestly believe that it won't turn into a £100 billion+ screw up that only works on a wet bank holiday Friday during leap years, and by "work" I mean about a 50% accuracy to the information?
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:02
howard h
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Have we? All I've seen is a few people getting excited because a Lib Dem won a seat in a heavily remain area and then fantasising about a soft Brexit because of it.
Well there's now a quote in the Daily Mail (hidden away of course) that May agrees with Davies that the UK may (which should probably read "will"!) have to put some money into the EU in order to get deals out of the EU. How much? No idea.

But if one of the big sells of leaving the EU was to "save money" seems very odd the sounds that are coming out of the top. Pay With No Say?

Sounds like instead of spending £b's to remain in the EU and be a part of the European government, have FoM, all our consumer, work, travel, employment rights protected etc etc we're spending the same £b's just to keep a few Romanians and Bulgarians out - who probably wouldn't come anyway if they couldn't get their hands on welfare, benefits and the NHS.

Q for Brexiteers - how much is an acceptable amount to pay to maintain free trade with the other 27??
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:10
Resonance
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Well there's now a quote in the Daily Mail (hidden away of course) that May agrees with Davies that the UK may (which should probably read "will"!) have to put some money into the EU in order to get deals out of the EU. How much? No idea.

But if one of the big sells of leaving the EU was to "save money" seems very odd the sounds that are coming out of the top. Pay With No Say?

Sounds like instead of spending £b's to remain in the EU and be a part of the European government, have FoM, all our consumer, work, travel, employment rights protected etc etc we're spending the same £b's just to keep a few Romanians and Bulgarians out - who probably wouldn't come anyway if they couldn't get their hands on welfare, benefits and the NHS.

Q for Brexiteers - how much is an acceptable amount to pay to maintain free trade with the other 27??
Given our trade deficit, the EU should be paying us. However a compromise where we pay a few £billion for access will probably be reached. What a fair figure is in the governments view is I don't know, but it wouldn't be a massive problem for me if we paid a bit in for tariff free access (not membership).
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:10
Video Nasty
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Successive governments have been trying to force ID cards on us for years. This is just the newest push.

Using Brexit as a starting point.
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:18
Dotheboyshall
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Successive governments have been trying to force ID cards on us for years. This is just the newest push.

Using Brexit as a starting point.
Will British ex pats need them when they return to the UK?
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:19
Doctor_Wibble
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The only surprise here is that it took someone nearly three hours to 'Godwin' the thread.
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:24
paulschapman
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Post Brexit



Next step - UK ID cards to prove you aren't EU
Non EU Immigrants already have to carry ID Cards.
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:24
howard h
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Given our trade deficit, the EU should be paying us. However a compromise where we pay a few £billion for access will probably be reached. What a fair figure is in the governments view is I don't know, but it wouldn't be a massive problem for me if we paid a bit in for tariff free access (not membership).
Begs the question - if we are paying for free access, why not simply stay a member? If the EU played it hard, they could demand more money than we pay already and we could either accept it or return to the good old days of tariffs, checks and restrictions. As you allude to, it's the same for both sides, but which side risks being the loser in all this?
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:29
Resonance
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Begs the question - if we are paying for free access, why not simply stay a member? If the EU played it hard, they could demand more money than we pay already and we could either accept it or return to the good old days of tariffs, checks and restrictions. As you allude to, it's the same for both sides, but which side risks being the loser in all this?
Well just having access to the single market gets us out of a whole load of stuff that people voted out on the basis of. So it would be a compromise that would keep a lot of people on both sides happy I would think. Staying in isn't an option, so not much point discussing it.
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:38
Dotheboyshall
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Non EU Immigrants already have to carry ID Cards.
Where did I mention non EU immigrants?
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:55
Kiteview
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Given the Governments (well any government really) track record with IT project do you honestly believe that it won't turn into a £100 billion+ screw up that only works on a wet bank holiday Friday during leap years, and by "work" I mean about a 50% accuracy to the information?
No doubt it will turn into a massive screw up.

After all, the only real reason that we don't already do this for EU citizens - as very many other EU member states do - is that it would cost a small fortune to implement for a minimal impression (i.e. Knowing which EU citizens don't meet the FoM criteria and thus can be sent home).
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:57
Miasima Goria
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The only surprise here is that it took someone nearly three hours to 'Godwin' the thread.
Godwin? There's more of a 'separate but equal' vibe going on.
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Old 06-12-2016, 11:25
Doctor_Wibble
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Godwin? There's more of a 'separate but equal' vibe going on.
No, I really don't think I misunderstood the blatancy of this post:
Not really. Our Brexit politicians probably see nothing in the idea that our EU citizens would all have to walk around wearing a large identifying symbol, maybe a big "Star of David" or EU equivalent.
The only people going on and on and on about who is different from whom are those who still place themselves over and above the revolting peasants who dared to say 'oi this is bollocks' or some such, and even if the entirety of the brexit vote was because of just that reason, it should not be dismissed - if anything that would be a bigger sign that concerns need to be addressed in a far more constructive manner than saying it's just a bunch of silly billies to safely ignore.

Lots of countries manage to have residency permits without being labelled as fascist regimes, and transitioning from a glorious free-movement utopia to one where we check passports* is not the signal of the beginning of the end.



* i.e. a bit more than just waving a maroon booklet with scrambled egg on the front, assuming you even have to do that
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Old 06-12-2016, 11:41
LostFool
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Non EU Immigrants already have to carry ID Cards.
Is this actually enforced? I can't remember hearing about any American, Australian or Indian friend or colleague ever saying anything about having to carry an ID Card with them at all times.
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Old 06-12-2016, 11:47
howard h
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Is this actually enforced? I can't remember hearing about any American, Australian or Indian friend or colleague ever saying anything about having to carry an ID Card with them at all times.
Think it's a Visa in - or in addition to a passport rather than an ID card. The difference being (hopefully) EU's won't need a Visa (and us in return)?
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Old 06-12-2016, 11:50
Orri
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EU citizens working and living in the EU have always been required to have paperwork to prove who they are. The whole uncontrolled freedom of movement is a myth. UK citizens working and living in the EU have a similar requirement.
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Old 06-12-2016, 13:15
howard h
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EU citizens working and living in the EU have always been required to have paperwork to prove who they are. The whole uncontrolled freedom of movement is a myth. UK citizens working and living in the EU have a similar requirement.
ANYONE working in the UK has to have ID - usually a NI number, address and possibly a bank account. Is the tattered piece of card that contains my NI number an ID card??
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Old 06-12-2016, 13:25
DaveMBA
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Why not just make people from the Eu wear a 5 pointed star on their jackets ?

It's cheaper than ID cards and will allow the UKIPers to more easily identify "enemies of the people"

Farage's wife will be immune
It would be yellow too.
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Old 06-12-2016, 13:25
Dotheboyshall
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ANYONE working in the UK has to have ID - usually a NI number, address and possibly a bank account. Is the tattered piece of card that contains my NI number an ID card??
No is the simple answer.
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Old 06-12-2016, 13:26
Orri
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ANYONE working in the UK has to have ID - usually a NI number, address and possibly a bank account. Is the tattered piece of card that contains my NI number an ID card??
Not sure as it needs some method of linking it to you. These days the replacements are a credit card sized pieces of plastic. In future they might just develop contactless technology to replace them. Fun thing is that if you store two or more contactless cards together neither of them can be read. Far cheaper than a fancy wallet.

Perhaps the problem with ID cards when Labour tried to introduce them was they were going too far. All you really needed was some basic information that would identify you linked to a secure server containing other information for verification. Potentially that could be further linked in to the disclosure service making it easier to apply for jobs.
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