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Lawful Killing - Mark Duggan BB1 8.30pm


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Old 12-12-2016, 20:04
Faust
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Our police force has been judged to be institutionally racist
Yes as a white person I definitely feel discriminated against myself.
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Old 12-12-2016, 20:07
EvieJ
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Ok, I agree that the police could have been more accommodating in allowing Mr Duggan to pursue his perfectly reasonable desire to transport his gun across the capital.
Sarcasm doesn't really address the point does it, but if it makes you feel better
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Old 12-12-2016, 20:49
DUHO
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Sarcasm doesn't really address the point does it, but if it makes you feel better
And the point is ?

ALL THE WAY through this thread you are acting as an apologist for a scumbag who was killed because he carried a gun.............. If you carry a gun sooner or later YOU WILL USE IT........

I COUL;D NOT CARE L;ESS DUGGAN WAS KILLED but we have to put with the liberal bleeding heart clap trap, You failed to answer my point about just HOW you would feel if Duggan had introduced a member of your family to drugs.....
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Old 12-12-2016, 21:09
EvieJ
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And the point is ?

ALL THE WAY through this thread you are acting as an apologist for a scumbag who was killed because he carried a gun.............. If you carry a gun sooner or later YOU WILL USE IT........

I COUL;D NOT CARE L;ESS DUGGAN WAS KILLED but we have to put with the liberal bleeding heart clap trap, You failed to answer my point about just HOW you would feel if Duggan had introduced a member of your family to drugs.....


We don't use the death penalty here, nor should we operate a shoot to kill policy. Where either happen we should always ask why and try to prevent it from happening again. If you knew what an apologist actually is you would realise that the term is more fitting of you than me.
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Old 12-12-2016, 21:14
DUHO
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We don't use the death penalty here, nor should we operate a shoot to kill policy. If you knew what an apologist actually is you would realise that the term is more fitting of you than me.
I know VERY well what an apologist is......It is you on this thread but as we have NO common ground here I will let you have the last word as I will not be responding to anymore of your utterings
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Old 12-12-2016, 21:30
EvieJ
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I know VERY well what an apologist is......It is you on this thread but as we have NO common ground here I will let you have the last word as I will not be responding to anymore of your utterings
I think thats a wise decision
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Old 12-12-2016, 22:40
Faust
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You can use them for tears as well you know.
True, but I was using them to mop up the blood from my bleeding heart.
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Old 12-12-2016, 22:47
Paulie Walnuts
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Well Faust, the fact that there was an enquiry resulting in apologies, changes in practice, the BBC and reporters, respected legal representatives and communities still interested, asking questions and referring to this then I'd say you are wrong. This will have repercussions for many years to come as it should.
What an amazing post, you mention all these minor, peripheral issues whilst ignoring the main one - the jury found that he was lawfully killed.
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Old 12-12-2016, 22:57
chloeb
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I think thats a wise decision
Such arrogance

Anyone might think you were related to the 'fine upstanding member of the community loves his Mummy' Mr Duggan ......
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Old 12-12-2016, 22:58
chloeb
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What an amazing post, you mention all these minor, peripheral issues whilst ignoring the main one - the jury found that he was lawfully killed.
Indeed he was
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Old 12-12-2016, 23:02
chloeb
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I think Chloeb is referring to the decision to pull or not to pull the trigger when confronted with a man with a firearm.

The ensuing PR shambles did not cause or contribute to Duggan's death.

At least the Met managed to shoot someone in this case who actually had a firearm. This has not always been the case as in the cases of Stephen Waldorf (1983) and Jean Charles de Menezes (2005).
Thank you

And yes I am not naive, the police do make errors of judgement. Like I say I am awfully glad I am not in their shoes. On the whole, in a country of 60 million people, where there services are being cut, they do an excellent job at keeping us safe given the current threats to our security
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Old 12-12-2016, 23:18
EvieJ
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Such arrogance

Anyone might think you were related to the 'fine upstanding member of the community loves his Mummy' Mr Duggan ......
So mature

And selfish might I add. As long as you are ok who gives a fig what happens in the world we live in eh?

Back to the original question, which decisions do you think were the right ones and which were damaging to the community and the reputation of those handling the incident both at the time and in the aftermath
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Old 12-12-2016, 23:21
EvieJ
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What an amazing post, you mention all these minor, peripheral issues whilst ignoring the main one - the jury found that he was lawfully killed.
I've already addressed the 'main one' as you call it. I actually don't think it is the main one but if you think everything is minor and peripheral then you are just highlighting your own ignorance.
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Old 12-12-2016, 23:29
Paulie Walnuts
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I've already addressed the 'main one' as you call it. I actually don't think it is the main one but if you think everything is minor and peripheral then you are just highlighting your own ignorance.
And you persistently bring up the matter of the family allegedly not being informed of Duggan's death when much earlier in this thread there was a good & proper explanation, with quality quotes and links, explaining in detail how the IPCC took this over and that from that point on the Police were restricted in what they could do.

A direct question for you now - do you accept the jurie's verdict that he was lawfully killed, bearing in mind that they sat through all of the evidence?
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Old 12-12-2016, 23:32
Paulie Walnuts
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http://www.tottenhamjournal.co.uk/ne...gang_1_3187839

"Ashley Underwood QC, counsel to the inquest, lifted the lid on the Met Police’s efforts to tackle the TMD while questioning Det Ch Insp Mick Foote, now an acting superintendent but then in charge of Operation Dibri.

The operation, live since November 2008, saw police “conducting a confidential covert proactive operation” in a bid to arrest the most senior members of a gang whose “line of business” involved the supply of class A drugs, firearms, kidnapping, blackmail and GBH.

But when police saw an upsurge in gang tensions in the run up to July 2011, Supt Foote decided to instigate the four-day operation that ended in Mark Duggan’s shooting.

At that point the TMD ranked second on the Met’s Organised Crime Network matrix, making them the second most harmful gang in the capital.

“TMD members and their associates are regularly attending nightclubs and parties in the London area and when doing so have firearms either on their person or nearby with their associates,” his report from July 25, 2011, said.

Specifically, a long-term feud between the TMD and the London Fields Boys in Hackney had reignited after the shooting of a 16-year old boy in a Hackney nightclub by a TMD member. They stood trial but were acquitted.

Since the start of Operation Dibri, the TMD had been linked to nine gun murders, five attempted murders, three gun-related cases of GBH and another GBH.

Reprisal attacks over the same time saw the gang suffer three murders and two attempted murders, while police had recovered numerous firearms, ammunition and large quantities of controlled drugs belonging to the TMD and their associates.

Supt Foote’s report adds: “In order to maintain their control and status they have a propensity to use firearms and extreme violence... They have a history of robbing other drug dealers, as these crimes are very rarely reported.”

Even V53, the officer who shot Mr Duggan, said he had “a healthy respect” for the TMD who are “very good at what they do and at not getting caught,” adding: “We had to be at the top of our game”.

Around 100 suspects were being tracked by Operation Dibri, but a core of 48 “were considered the most violent people” not only in London but in Europe, because of their involvement with importing drugs.

They were “closely linked to Turkish criminal organisations as well”, Supt Foote’s report noted.

In a review of Operation Dibri the day before Mr Duggan was killed, held with the Met’s Intelligence Bureau, it is noted that “some of the top tier are within reach of being arrested for substantive offences”. Mr Duggan was described as one of those “most active” and thus “most likely” to be arrested."
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Old 12-12-2016, 23:34
Paulie Walnuts
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http://www.tottenhamjournal.co.uk/ne..._tmd_1_3187834

"At 17 he returned to London, Pamela noting he had grown into a well-balanced, quietly-spoken and easy-going young man with a sense of humour; caring and considerate, happy-go-lucky and mischevious.

He had a way with the ladies, who flocked around him, had “the most beautiful smile” that would melt girls’ hearts.

He had nine siblings but was closest to Marlon, his youngest brother. He was “a wonderful father” to his children with Semone Wilson, his girlfriend since they were both 15. When he died the oldest was 12, the youngest just three. They were staying with Carole in Manchester on the day he was killed.

Pamela’s statement adds: “Mark may not have been an angel, but I do not believe he should have died the way he did. If he was involved in wrongdoing, he should have been brought to justice and punished. He should not have been shot and killed.”

Judge Cutler, too, when summing up the evidence, said Mr Duggan was “clearly a respected man, respected by many, a friend of many”.

But, he added: “It may be that much of what we have learnt about him in the weeks leading up to his death shows a lifestyle, and a criminality, of which [his mother] was totally unaware.”

Det Ch Insp Michael Foote, the senior investigating officer for Operation Dibri, said Mr Duggan “was very, very lightly convicted”; cautioned for a public order offence, convicted and fined £30 for possession of cannabis in 2000 and fined £250 in 2007 for receiving stolen goods. He had never been sent to prison or even given a community sentence.

But police maintained he had a history of “suspected criminality” too; he had shot someone in a nightclub in January 2011, fired shots in a car park the following month, and was suspected of having drugs in his home in June. Police thought he was intent on acquiring a gun.

Going back further, Mr Duggan was arrested and interviewed over the murder of Gavin Smith, who was stabbed twice in Lordship Recreation Ground, next to the Broadwater Farm Estate, in October 2003.

In May 2006 he was arrested in relation to the shooting of a Turkish man in a repair garage in Tottenham. The victim lost one of his kidneys as a result. Mr Duggan was not identified by witnesses but some of his “known associates” were convicted.

He was the passenger in a car in which a live bullet was found, and in March 2008 he was driving in “a convoy” of five cars in Chiswick when stopped by armed officers. A loaded gun was found wrapped in a sock in the waistband of another man in the convoy.

Mr Duggan was never charged or prosecuted in any of these cases, the inquest heard.

One expression used by the police was: “He had a number of serious arrests but nothing could be proved at all.”

Indeed, the intelligence was of such poor quality that, between June 2010 and August 2011, Det Ch Insp Foote admitted: “I had no information on which I could have arrested Mark Duggan.”

But police presented intelligence to the courts, gathered in the months before the operation in 2011, citing Mr Duggan as “a long-standing senior member of the TMD”, one of the most violent gangs in Europe.

He was one of just six people placed under surveillance, police believing him to be a key member of the Tottenham Man Dem.

It continued: “There is a wealth of historic and current reliable intelligence suggesting that Duggan has ready access to firearms. He is actively involved in armed criminality and the supply of controlled drugs.”

One piece of “untested” low-grade intelligence, from July 19, suggested he had possession of a Beretta handgun, kept at his girlfriend’s address.

Police believed he was a danger, obtained search warrants and planned - but aborted - a similar operation aimed at catching him collecting a gun.

Judge Cutler left these remarks with jurors to mull over: “The police... had real concerns about Mark Duggan’s criminal behaviour. Indeed, you may conclude that the police were correct, especially if you decide that Mark Duggan did indeed receive the gun from Kevin Hutchinson-Foster and was taking it to Broadwater Farm where it may have been used by somebody on somebody.

“On the other hand, you must be careful before you come to any condemnation of Mark Duggan’s character. Of course, I have emphasised already that no one is on trial here, least of all Mark Duggan.

“Indeed, it may be that you do not need to come to conclusions or any final conclusions about it. But how important is the truth about his criminal character?

“Was he in fact someone who was sliding into criminal ways or was he a confirmed serious criminal?”"
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Old 12-12-2016, 23:35
EvieJ
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And you persistently bring up the matter of the family allegedly not being informed of Duggan's death when much earlier in this thread there was a good & proper explanation, with quality quotes and links, explaining in detail how the IPCC took this over and that from that point on the Police were restricted in what they could do.

A direct question for you now - do you accept the jurie's verdict that he was lawfully killed, bearing in mind that they sat through all of the evidence?
Odd then that the police apologised for not informing the family I think my persistence was justified.

How do you justify your ignoring doubts and fact that don't support the pitchfork wielding mob mentality?
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Old 12-12-2016, 23:47
EvieJ
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http://www.tottenhamjournal.co.uk/ne..._tmd_1_3187834

"At 17 he returned to London, Pamela noting he had grown into a well-balanced, quietly-spoken and easy-going young man with a sense of humour; caring and considerate, happy-go-lucky and mischevious.

He had a way with the ladies, who flocked around him, had “the most beautiful smile” that would melt girls’ hearts.

He had nine siblings but was closest to Marlon, his youngest brother. He was “a wonderful father” to his children with Semone Wilson, his girlfriend since they were both 15. When he died the oldest was 12, the youngest just three. They were staying with Carole in Manchester on the day he was killed.

Pamela’s statement adds: “Mark may not have been an angel, but I do not believe he should have died the way he did. If he was involved in wrongdoing, he should have been brought to justice and punished. He should not have been shot and killed.”

Judge Cutler, too, when summing up the evidence, said Mr Duggan was “clearly a respected man, respected by many, a friend of many”.

But, he added: “It may be that much of what we have learnt about him in the weeks leading up to his death shows a lifestyle, and a criminality, of which [his mother] was totally unaware.”

Det Ch Insp Michael Foote, the senior investigating officer for Operation Dibri, said Mr Duggan “was very, very lightly convicted”; cautioned for a public order offence, convicted and fined £30 for possession of cannabis in 2000 and fined £250 in 2007 for receiving stolen goods. He had never been sent to prison or even given a community sentence.

But police maintained he had a history of “suspected criminality” too; he had shot someone in a nightclub in January 2011, fired shots in a car park the following month, and was suspected of having drugs in his home in June. Police thought he was intent on acquiring a gun.

Going back further, Mr Duggan was arrested and interviewed over the murder of Gavin Smith, who was stabbed twice in Lordship Recreation Ground, next to the Broadwater Farm Estate, in October 2003.

In May 2006 he was arrested in relation to the shooting of a Turkish man in a repair garage in Tottenham. The victim lost one of his kidneys as a result. Mr Duggan was not identified by witnesses but some of his “known associates” were convicted.

He was the passenger in a car in which a live bullet was found, and in March 2008 he was driving in “a convoy” of five cars in Chiswick when stopped by armed officers. A loaded gun was found wrapped in a sock in the waistband of another man in the convoy.

Mr Duggan was never charged or prosecuted in any of these cases, the inquest heard.

One expression used by the police was: “He had a number of serious arrests but nothing could be proved at all.”

Indeed, the intelligence was of such poor quality that, between June 2010 and August 2011, Det Ch Insp Foote admitted: “I had no information on which I could have arrested Mark Duggan.”


But police presented intelligence to the courts, gathered in the months before the operation in 2011, citing Mr Duggan as “a long-standing senior member of the TMD”, one of the most violent gangs in Europe.

He was one of just six people placed under surveillance, police believing him to be a key member of the Tottenham Man Dem.

It continued: “There is a wealth of historic and current reliable intelligence suggesting that Duggan has ready access to firearms. He is actively involved in armed criminality and the supply of controlled drugs.”

One piece of “untested” low-grade intelligence, from July 19, suggested he had possession of a Beretta handgun, kept at his girlfriend’s address.

Police believed he was a danger, obtained search warrants and planned - but aborted - a similar operation aimed at catching him collecting a gun.

Judge Cutler left these remarks with jurors to mull over: “The police... had real concerns about Mark Duggan’s criminal behaviour. Indeed, you may conclude that the police were correct, especially if you decide that Mark Duggan did indeed receive the gun from Kevin Hutchinson-Foster and was taking it to Broadwater Farm where it may have been used by somebody on somebody.

“On the other hand, you must be careful before you come to any condemnation of Mark Duggan’s character. Of course, I have emphasised already that no one is on trial here, least of all Mark Duggan.

“Indeed, it may be that you do not need to come to conclusions or any final conclusions about it. But how important is the truth about his criminal character?

“Was he in fact someone who was sliding into criminal ways or was he a confirmed serious criminal?”"
How infuriating for the police, all that suspicion and no evidence to arrest/charge him?

Are you trying to provide a motive for his shooting?
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Old 12-12-2016, 23:52
Paulie Walnuts
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Odd then that the police apologised for not informing the family I think my persistence was justified.

How do you justify your ignoring doubts and fact that don't support the pitchfork wielding mob mentality?
skp20040's excellent post #166, with several others, fully explain and provide links to the IPCC and other websites fully explaining the truth behind this but yet again you come from behind the Duggan supporters smokescreen of misinformation and manilpulation.

Also, what a massive irony that you mention an imaginary mob when it was a very real one that happily burned our streets with no credible excuse.
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Old 12-12-2016, 23:56
Paulie Walnuts
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How infuriating for the police, all that suspicion and no evidence to arrest/charge him?

Are you trying to provide a motive for his shooting?
I'm trying to provide a counter to the ridiculous suggestion from his family and supporters like yourself that, just because he only had two convictions, he wasn't a major criminal.

The Kray Twins, Dale Creggan, Richardson gang, and many of the top US Mafia bosses also had barely any convictions.
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Old 13-12-2016, 00:02
EvieJ
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skp20040's excellent post #166, with several others, fully explain and provide links to the IPCC and other websites fully explaining the truth behind this but yet again you come from behind the Duggan supporters smokescreen of misinformation and manilpulation.

Also, what a massive irony that you mention an imaginary mob when it was a very real one that happily burned our streets with no credible excuse.
Read the thread, theres an article with an apology from the police for not informing the family. The reason being was they expected a riot and they got one.

Funny how you can ONLY refer to 'the truth' which justifies your prejudices when the actual facts do anything but.
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Old 13-12-2016, 00:10
EvieJ
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I'm trying to provide a counter to the ridiculous suggestion from his family and supporters like yourself that, just because he only had two convictions, he wasn't a major criminal.

The Kray Twins, Dale Creggan, Richardson gang, and many of the top US Mafia bosses also had barely any convictions.
Didn't quite work out how you expected it to did it? Until he has been convicted then how do we know what he is guilty of - I'm sorry, hearsay and slurs from those with an agenda who have been proven to have lied do not count. Aside from that matter, we don't kill criminals here, we try, convict then punish them according to our penal laws.

Oh and you forgot Stephen Fry, Paul McCartney, Bill Gates, Mark Whalberg.............

You have a very subjective logic Paulie, even your 'assessment' of me is based on your own 'us and them' mentality rather than my actual posts.
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Old 13-12-2016, 07:30
DUHO
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Such arrogance

Anyone might think you were related to the 'fine upstanding member of the community loves his Mummy' Mr Duggan ......
Thank you for the support however you are wasting your breath, as its like talking to a brick wall. This person has an agenda and completely chooses to ignore facts to suit his/her own argument...

refuses to address points but bangs on and on about the same things. O well never mind its quite sad and pathetic really.....
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Old 13-12-2016, 11:35
Eve3275
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I think MD tossed the gun before getting out of the car just like the forensic pathologist described. At least, that was the most plausible scenario presented in that whole 1.5 hours of programme.

Besides, it wasn't just the police whose accounts didn't match up; "witness B", the only person who claimed to have witnessed the actual shooting had his testimony shown up as a load of cobblers by the forensic pathologist. Seems like there were alot of idiot rubberneckers like "witness B", "Miss J" and others just trying to get involved and creating needless diversions with unhelpful fabrications of what they claimed to have seen, and people like that irk me no end!

MD was probably a waste of space, however much the family and friends tried to dress it up as if he was just a girliss or whatever. He also probably wasn't a threat to those officers on that occasion, but they didn't have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight like we do, hence the outcome. I agree with the conclusion that MD was lawfully killed, but it will be interesting to see how the family get on with their appeal.
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Old 13-12-2016, 12:28
razorback Tony
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I downloaded this from Catch-up TV, and watched it yesterday afternoon, stopping it, re-winding it and playing it again from time to time.
I watched a lot of it again, late last night, without the aid of one drop of alcohol, as my blood pressure, and incredulity meter gradually crept higher.
I then slowly and meticulously re-read DS rules, and decided that if I wished to remain active on the site I'd better lock my keyboard and keep my mouth firmly shut.
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