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Lawful Killing - Mark Duggan BB1 8.30pm


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Old 09-12-2016, 07:44
EvieJ
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Well apart from a few deluded souls who else is interested?
Anyone who is genuinely concerned about guns on our streets and the potential loss of life regardless of who is carrying them and who the victim is. Who believes in justice without prejudice.

I think this would be the majority of people in this country.
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Old 11-12-2016, 10:38
james_lndsay
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Hearsay aside, regarding the actual case, would you mind addressing the gun issue?
It's not hearsay about the drugs neither is it about the rape, people like you are the reason why good folk in places such as Tottenham etc have people like the rapist Duggan, hero worshipping at its worst. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd hazard a guess you have never ever set foot on an inner city estate in London where there are hundreds of scummbag Duggans wrecking others lives and destroying the fabric of the communities they blight.

You see another poor ickle lovable rogue whose life was brutally ended by the awful Met, many on the estate where he lived are most likely very supportive of the police and the actions they took that day to take out a dangerous threat to life and limb.

Now if you mean by the gun issue the fact he had a gun a was going to use it then that has been addressed many times, the Met followed the correct protocols and rules for dealing with dangerous armed suspects, the Met have no stain on their reputation for the actions they had to take to ensure the safety of their officers and the public.

On that fateful day in question though there are some folk who need to be singled out for criticism, his family especially the mother as usual deluded about her son, condoning his behaviour because I have heard or read nothing to the contrary,from what I actually know that family has a few vile seeds present and in the past.

I have no sympathy for his mother or his family, they are enablers, he carried a gun so he died by the gun, he got his just deserts.
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Old 11-12-2016, 13:32
EvieJ
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It's not hearsay about the drugs neither is it about the rape, people like you are the reason why good folk in places such as Tottenham etc have people like the rapist Duggan, hero worshipping at its worst. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd hazard a guess you have never ever set foot on an inner city estate in London where there are hundreds of scummbag Duggans wrecking others lives and destroying the fabric of the communities they blight.

You see another poor ickle lovable rogue whose life was brutally ended by the awful Met, many on the estate where he lived are most likely very supportive of the police and the actions they took that day to take out a dangerous threat to life and limb.

Now if you mean by the gun issue the fact he had a gun a was going to use it then that has been addressed many times, the Met followed the correct protocols and rules for dealing with dangerous armed suspects, the Met have no stain on their reputation for the actions they had to take to ensure the safety of their officers and the public.

On that fateful day in question though there are some folk who need to be singled out for criticism, his family especially the mother as usual deluded about her son, condoning his behaviour because I have heard or read nothing to the contrary,from what I actually know that family has a few vile seeds present and in the past.

I have no sympathy for his mother or his family, they are enablers, he carried a gun so he died by the gun, he got his just deserts.
You really are a bile filled fool, almost blind to the actual facts aren't you? So blinkered by your own bigotry that you make it either 'him or them' when the truth is it wasn't that at all. The gun you have said he was 'waving around' he wasn't, and neither did he have a history with guns but that says more about you and your interpretations than anyone else. Given your feelings why aren't you more interested in why 'Kevin' wasn't shot dead in the street, does this make you sympathetic to him?

Do you suppose the investigation afterwards was all conducted by those who 'hero worship', is the truth that our justice system should and did investigate the avoidable death of an unarmed man a little too much for you to understand?
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Old 11-12-2016, 13:46
james_lndsay
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You really are a bile filled fool, almost blind to the actual facts aren't you? So blinkered by your own bigotry that you make it either 'him or them' when the truth is it wasn't that at all. The gun you have said he was 'waving around' he wasn't, and neither did he have a history with guns but that says more about you and your interpretations than anyone else. Given your feelings why aren't you more interested in why 'Kevin' wasn't shot dead in the street, does this make you sympathetic to him?

Do you suppose the investigation afterwards was all conducted by those who 'hero worship', is the truth that our justice system should and did investigate the avoidable death of an unarmed man a little too much for you to understand?
Now now now there is no need for childish retorts, please tell me what exactly makes me a bigot, my hatred of drug pushing rapists, my anger at the mess and fear these scumbags bring on the communities where they live.

You know nothing about scumbag but please do defend him because it says more about you than a thousand posts can ever say, personally I'm not surprised you fell for the lies about his gun history and him waving it about, he had and hid did wave the gun about earlier that day, his death may have been unavoidable but his reckless behaviour and being armed made it a justifiable killing. I saw him from a distance twice but I'm no authority on scumbag but your posts make you out to be number one sycophant.

And as far as I and many are concerned the scum is dead, and I personally believe that his death was a good day for all decent residents of the community he terrorised, and on this note I have no desire to converse with you again, you lost me with the childish first sentence of your post but being a gentleman I had the decency to grant you one last reply.
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Old 11-12-2016, 16:44
EvieJ
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Now now now there is no need for childish retorts, please tell me what exactly makes me a bigot, my hatred of drug pushing rapists, my anger at the mess and fear these scumbags bring on the communities where they live.

You know nothing about scumbag but please do defend him because it says more about you than a thousand posts can ever say, personally I'm not surprised you fell for the lies about his gun history and him waving it about, he had and hid did wave the gun about earlier that day, his death may have been unavoidable but his reckless behaviour and being armed made it a justifiable killing. I saw him from a distance twice but I'm no authority on scumbag but your posts make you out to be number one sycophant.

And as far as I and many are concerned the scum is dead, and I personally believe that his death was a good day for all decent residents of the community he terrorised, and on this note I have no desire to converse with you again, you lost me with the childish first sentence of your post but being a gentleman I had the decency to grant you one last reply.
Lets hope you are treated with more fairness than you have others treated. I'm a sycophant like I said, you're an utter fool.
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Old 11-12-2016, 18:08
Dippydolly
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Now now now there is no need for childish retorts, please tell me what exactly makes me a bigot, my hatred of drug pushing rapists, my anger at the mess and fear these scumbags bring on the communities where they live.

You know nothing about scumbag but please do defend him because it says more about you than a thousand posts can ever say, personally I'm not surprised you fell for the lies about his gun history and him waving it about, he had and hid did wave the gun about earlier that day, his death may have been unavoidable but his reckless behaviour and being armed made it a justifiable killing. I saw him from a distance twice but I'm no authority on scumbag but your posts make you out to be number one sycophant.

And as far as I and many are concerned the scum is dead, and I personally believe that his death was a good day for all decent residents of the community he terrorised, and on this note I have no desire to converse with you again, you lost me with the childish first sentence of your post but being a gentleman I had the decency to grant you one last reply.
Wish i could thumbs up this post. Good job James
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Old 11-12-2016, 19:02
EvieJ
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Wish i could thumbs up this post. Good job James
A thumbs up for cheering the death of someone who HASN'T been tried or found guilty of any of any of the crimes mentioned.

What punishment do you think he should have been dealt if he had actually shot someone dead?
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Old 11-12-2016, 22:40
Faust
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A thumbs up for cheering the death of someone who HASN'T been tried or found guilty of any of any of the crimes mentioned.

What punishment do you think he should have been dealt if he had actually shot someone dead?
I reckon you are on to a loser keep bleating on about the demise of someone most people have little sympathy with. I would go and find yourself another cause as there's no mileage in this one.
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Old 12-12-2016, 09:07
spectra
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A thumbs up for cheering the death of someone who HASN'T been tried or found guilty of any of any of the crimes mentioned.

What punishment do you think he should have been dealt if he had actually shot someone dead?
I would give up Evie.

The police shot a black person who was near a gun. He had a reputation according to the press and posters here of being involved in drugs and other unlawful activity.

He was shot by a policeman - opinions here think this is not necessarily fair but...
why waste time thinking about it! He was a wrong'un and therefore does not deserve justice.

Anyone who is looking for the truth about the shooting is seen as supporting Mark Duggan and any criminal activities he was associated with.

Some posters here cannot understand that you can question and criticise the police actions in this case without feeling Mark Duggan was without fault and saintly. For some it is important that there are no cover ups and that the laws we are held to should be held to by those that police us.

Posters here are blatantly supporting the use of firearms to kill a person regardless of evidence or regulations - if that person was a criminal.

It says a lot about these posters and the way they would like to see society evolve!
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Old 12-12-2016, 09:52
EvieJ
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I reckon you are on to a loser keep bleating on about the demise of someone most people have little sympathy with. I would go and find yourself another cause as there's no mileage in this one.
Well Faust, the fact that there was an enquiry resulting in apologies, changes in practice, the BBC and reporters, respected legal representatives and communities still interested, asking questions and referring to this then I'd say you are wrong. This will have repercussions for many years to come as it should.
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:14
Horace Wimp
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It says a lot about these posters and the way they would like to see society evolve!
Evolving into a safer society where pea-brained fantasists like Duggan [ who clearly thought he was living in downtown S. Central LA ] get the justice they deserve ?

I'm all for that.
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:22
EvieJ
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I would give up Evie.

The police shot a black person who was near a gun. He had a reputation according to the press and posters here of being involved in drugs and other unlawful activity.

He was shot by a policeman - opinions here think this is not necessarily fair but...
why waste time thinking about it! He was a wrong'un and therefore does not deserve justice.

Anyone who is looking for the truth about the shooting is seen as supporting Mark Duggan and any criminal activities he was associated with.

Some posters here cannot understand that you can question and criticise the police actions in this case without feeling Mark Duggan was without fault and saintly. For some it is important that there are no cover ups and that the laws we are held to should be held to by those that police us.

Posters here are blatantly supporting the use of firearms to kill a person regardless of evidence or regulations - if that person was a criminal.

It says a lot about these posters and the way they would like to see society evolve!
Spectra, excellent summary of this thread and the logic of some of its posters.

We were fed lies, and despite now knowing the facts some are still steadfast in those beliefs. I have barely spoken about Duggan or the policeman who shot him yet some have also managed to read things that aren't there.

Yes, the police force has been deemed as racist and it is accepted that they lied and managed the entire incident very badly resulting in much unrest but thankfully it will not be forgotten by those who care or matter and hopefully our justice system will improve. Thankfully our future will not be determined by those who can't remove themselves from outdated and damaging beliefs,
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Old 12-12-2016, 15:18
Faust
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Well Faust, the fact that there was an enquiry resulting in apologies, changes in practice, the BBC and reporters, respected legal representatives and communities still interested, asking questions and referring to this then I'd say you are wrong. This will have repercussions for many years to come as it should.
If you remember a few years back Rupert Murdoch tried to take complete control of Sky. Then came the phone hacking scandal and the Levinson inquiry. Murdoch had to back down and withdrew his offer. It was said at the time he wasn't a fit and proper person to be in such a position of power.

Fast forward to 2016 and in the last few days Murdoch has again bid for Sky. Nothing has changed since the previous offer was dropped and yet most analysts are saying that this time the deal will go through without a peep. Oh! and all the furore about Levinson and how it was meant to clean up the press - well that too has now been kicked into the long grass.

The Duggan case will be similar. Lot's of posturing by politicians etc. then when it's all died down it will be back to business as usual.
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Old 12-12-2016, 15:26
RegTumbler
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Evolving into a safer society where pea-brained fantasists like Duggan [ who clearly thought he was living in downtown S. Central LA ] get the justice they deserve ?

I'm all for that.
I agree. Duggan was the author of his own misfortune.
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Old 12-12-2016, 16:00
spectra
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I agree. Duggan was the author of his own misfortune.
Did you watch the program?

How did his family not deserve to be informed of his death by the police, whose job it is to inform family in cases of a death (regardless of the situation).

Why did the police not target the man who was going to pass the gun to him?

Do you not think that the circumstances of the death are concerning regardless of the victim or their previous?
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Old 12-12-2016, 17:47
RegTumbler
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[quote=spectra;84874722]
Did you watch the program?
Yes

How did his family not deserve to be informed of his death by the police, whose job it is to inform family in cases of a death (regardless of the situation).
This did not cause his death.

Why did the police not target the man who was going to pass the gun to him?
The reason given in the program was that they didn't have any "intelligence" on Kevin Hutchinson-Foster and that the intelligence was on Duggan. But it does seem that the police could and should have arrested Kevin Hutchinson-Foster sooner and that one officer was dismissed from the Police service with regards to this.

Do you not think that the circumstances of the death are concerning regardless of the victim or their previous?
If Duggan had not gone to pick up the gun from Kevin Hutchinson-Foster then he would not have ended up being shot, which is why he was the author of his own misfortune. If you play with fire etcetera.
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Old 12-12-2016, 18:43
chloeb
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I agree. Duggan was the author of his own misfortune.
Absolutely he was.
You live by the sword....

I pity the vast majority of policeman attempting to go about their jobs whilst being constantly criticised. Sometimes decisions have to made in a blink of a moment.
I'm glad that the people posting in support of Duggan aren't the ones making those decisions or we would have mob rule.
We might not like or agree with these outcomes sometimes. The fact is this is real life and I am happy to leave such judgements to those with experience to make them rather than keyboard warriors who have never faced such a potentially dangerous situation.
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Old 12-12-2016, 19:07
EvieJ
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Absolutely he was.
You live by the sword....

I pity the vast majority of policeman attempting to go about their jobs whilst being constantly criticised. Sometimes decisions have to made in a blink of a moment.
I'm glad that the people posting in support of Duggan aren't the ones making those decisions or we would have mob rule.
We might not like or agree with these outcomes sometimes. The fact is this is real life and I am happy to leave such judgements to those with experience to make them rather than keyboard warriors who have never faced such a potentially dangerous situation.
Which decisions would those be? To lie about various details of that day, to not inform the family, to allow the press to report lies, to have missed the throwing of a weapon/lie about finding that weapon. To put themselves above the law and decide to withold information from those with the experience to conduct the investigation. Are these the decisions that you speak of?
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Old 12-12-2016, 19:31
colinwill
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You really are a bile filled fool, almost blind to the actual facts aren't you? So blinkered by your own bigotry that you make it either 'him or them' when the truth is it wasn't that at all. The gun you have said he was 'waving around' he wasn't, and neither did he have a history with guns but that says more about you and your interpretations than anyone else. Given your feelings why aren't you more interested in why 'Kevin' wasn't shot dead in the street, does this make you sympathetic to him?

Do you suppose the investigation afterwards was all conducted by those who 'hero worship', is the truth that our justice system should and did investigate the avoidable death of an unarmed man a little too much for you to understand?
But the police were right concerning the intelligence. And he was acting erratically when stopped. That alone is good reason to shoot him.

If you have absolute knowledge that he possessed a gun (which the police did), and when you apprehend him, he acts erratically (which he did), then the police had no option to act as they did.

It doesn't matter that he threw the gun away, or that he was going for a mobile phone, or whatever.

Duggan himself could have avoided being shot by behaving in a different way, making it obvious that he wasn't armed, instead of the erratic behaviour that he exhibited, which was, in my opinion sheer arrogance on his part because he thought he could wind the police around his little finger.

He couldn't, and now he's dead. There is one less potential murderer out there, one less gun dealer, and one less gun.

What was he going to do with the gun? Use it, or show off to all the little kids where he lived? Or both?

We'll never know, but one things for sure, all those terrible scenarios will now not happen.

And no matter how much you hate the police, no matter how ignorant, angry and prejudiced you are, gun crime in the UK will not and should not be tolerated, just because someone has black skin.
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Old 12-12-2016, 19:36
RegTumbler
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Which decisions would those be? To lie about various details of that day, to not inform the family, to allow the press to report lies, to have missed the throwing of a weapon/lie about finding that weapon. To put themselves above the law and decide to withold information from those with the experience to conduct the investigation. Are these the decisions that you speak of?
I think Chloeb is referring to the decision to pull or not to pull the trigger when confronted with a man with a firearm.

The ensuing PR shambles did not cause or contribute to Duggan's death.

At least the Met managed to shoot someone in this case who actually had a firearm. This has not always been the case as in the cases of Stephen Waldorf (1983) and Jean Charles de Menezes (2005).
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Old 12-12-2016, 19:41
EvieJ
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But the police were right concerning the intelligence. And he was acting erratically when stopped. That alone is good reason to shoot him.

If you have absolute knowledge that he possessed a gun (which the police did), and when you apprehend him, he acts erratically (which he did), then the police had no option to act as they did.

It doesn't matter that he threw the gun away, or that he was going for a mobile phone, or whatever.

Duggan himself could have avoided being shot by behaving in a different way, making it obvious that he wasn't armed, instead of the erratic behaviour that he exhibited, which was, in my opinion sheer arrogance on his part because he thought he could wind the police around his little finger.

He couldn't, and now he's dead. There is one less potential murderer out there, one less gun dealer, and one less gun.

What was he going to do with the gun? Use it, or show off to all the little kids where he lived? Or both?

We'll never know, but one things for sure, all those terrible scenarios will now not happen.

And no matter how much you hate the police, no matter how ignorant, angry and prejudiced you are, gun crime in the UK will not and should not be tolerated, just because someone has black skin.
This is the point exactly and it works both ways. Our police force has been judged to be institutionally racist and lied about many of the details in this incident, shouldn't we be glad the there was an inquest and that people are still interested enough to talk about the questions which weren't answered to ensure it doesn't happen again?
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Old 12-12-2016, 19:52
EvieJ
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I think Chloeb is referring to the decision to pull or not to pull the trigger when confronted with a man with a firearm.

The ensuing PR shambles did not cause or contribute to Duggan's death.

At least the Met managed to shoot someone in this case who actually had a firearm. This has not always been the case as in the cases of Stephen Waldorf (1983) and Jean Charles de Menezes (2005).
Well what can I say? Its a very sad indictment on our society if there are people out there who think that that single decision was made in complete isolation, had no bearing on the aftermath and is the only concerning aspect of all this.
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Old 12-12-2016, 19:59
Faust
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Which decisions would those be? To lie about various details of that day, to not inform the family, to allow the press to report lies, to have missed the throwing of a weapon/lie about finding that weapon. To put themselves above the law and decide to withold information from those with the experience to conduct the investigation. Are these the decisions that you speak of?
Oh please! you need to stop these posts, you're costing me a fortune in tissues.
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Old 12-12-2016, 20:00
RegTumbler
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Well what can I say? Its a very sad indictment on our society if there are people out there who think that that single decision was made in complete isolation, had no bearing on the aftermath and is the only concerning aspect of all this.
Ok, I agree that the police could have been more accommodating in allowing Mr Duggan to pursue his perfectly reasonable desire to transport his gun across the capital.
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Old 12-12-2016, 20:01
EvieJ
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Oh please! you need to stop these posts, you're costing me a fortune in tissues.
You can use them for tears as well you know.
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