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Soft Brexit Or No Brexit? Those Are The Options It Seems..


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Old 06-12-2016, 13:18
voteout
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That's a fair comment, but our elections consist of a multitude of candidates and the one with the most votes wins, even when the vote is well under 50%. So no excuses for the Brexit referendum not to be the same - and include a *don't know* option!

If we go down the referendum route to select our MP's then, yes, we should whittle the candidates down to two and vote for either.

However - didn't we have a referendum on a reasonably similar system....
Thing is though, with two questions the referendum debate suddenly becomes much more complex and interesting.

There will be people who would prefer to leave but leave under a so-called 'soft Brexit', and conversely there will be people who prefer to stay but think that if we do leave, it should be so-called 'hard Brexit'. In other words, the argument we're having now would have taken place before the vote, which would be much more healthy for the country, and would have served to blunt the binary division we now see in society.

You don't achieve that by dividing the choice into three.
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Old 06-12-2016, 13:33
John146
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You understand a newspaper's interpretation of something isn't the same as someone actually saying it?

Particularly when said newspaper has a clear agenda to try and paint anything and anyone to do with the EU in as negative a light as possible.
Media playing up the bogey man so that when government can't deliver what The Sun promised the plebs will be fed the propaganda that it is all due to Juncker.
Not just Juncker, but Hollande as well

The French president said Britain should be punished for Brexit as a warning to other nations.
Launching a furious attack on Britain decision to leave the EU, the leader echoed the sentiments of*German Chancellor Angela Merkel.*


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz4S44ELU1D
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Old 06-12-2016, 13:35
Aurora13
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Not just Juncker, but Hollande as well

The French president said Britain should be punished for Brexit as a warning to other nations.
Launching a furious attack on Britain decision to leave the EU, the leader echoed the sentiments of*German Chancellor Angela Merkel.*


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz4S44ELU1D
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
They've moved back to Juncker now Hollande will be long gone when The Sun promises aren't fulfilled.
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Old 06-12-2016, 13:59
Orri
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They've moved back to Juncker now Hollande will be long gone when The Sun promises aren't fulfilled.
This'd be the Sun who's owner is a republican when it suits him? Are they backing the use of royal powers to trump elected representatives?
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Old 06-12-2016, 14:05
trevgo
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Does this thread mark the end of the endless bragging by the hairshirt Brexiters? Has it finally dawned on them that their vision (if you can call it that) of a wild and free Britain, striding the world stage and requesting all those countries just begging to buy all the stuff we don't make form an orderly queue, was a pipedream all along?

I wouldn't shed tears yet, as a very hard exit may well still be in order, despite it being blindingly obvious that a) it will cause immense damage to the economy and b) the vast majority of the public do not want it. If it happens, their joy will be very short lived indeed.

If it ends up being soft, then yes - it's far worse than where we are. Following the rules, paying in, but having no say. Just like you were told throughout the campaign. The misled, non-thinking, delusional brought us to where we are, and now it's the choice of least worst option.

A lesson to be learned here. When a massively complex issue is reduced to a simple binary choice, and a complete array of outcomes is promised/proposed, do not assume everyone that ticks the same box as you wants the same. They patently do not.
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Old 06-12-2016, 14:18
Orri
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The laughable thing is that Farage comes across as the bloke in the pub. Then people get surprised when it turns out just how badly wrong he was about how things might be better if you just listened to him.
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Old 06-12-2016, 14:26
trevgo
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The laughable thing is that Farage comes across as the bloke in the pub.
Possibly because he is the bloke in the pub, and absolutely nothing more.
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Old 06-12-2016, 17:32
Welsh-lad
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Leave and Remainers, put down your differences and come together for the good of the UK !

instead of fighting about what happened the vote to leave the EU.. we are leaving, that much is clear. Time to accept that and move forward.

For the good of the country, please move on..
Oh please. I can only think of one or two brexiters on here who could carry off a concilatory approach, and you're certainly not one of them.
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Old 06-12-2016, 18:11
andykn
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But the vote was to leave the single market - I gave you the video links on another thread a couple of days ago where all the big debaters stated that a Leave vote was a vote to leave the single market.
And others said there were other quotes from the same people saying we wouldn't leave the single market.
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Old 06-12-2016, 18:15
andykn
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Not just Juncker, but Hollande as well

The French president said Britain should be punished for Brexit as a warning to other nations.
Launching a furious attack on Britain decision to leave the EU, the leader echoed the sentiments of*German Chancellor Angela Merkel.*


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz4S44ELU1D
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Not Juncker at all, you've been told that already, stop lying.

And the French president didn't mention punishment either, just that we should meet our financial obligations, pay for stuff, y'know.

Why do you feel the need to lie so much?
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Old 06-12-2016, 18:18
John146
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Not Juncker at all, you've been told that already, stop lying.

And the French president didn't mention punishment either, just that we should meet our financial obligations, pay for stuff, y'know.

Why do you feel the need to lie so much?
Why do you feel the need to be so rude??

Britain will be made to "pay" for leaving the EU, Francois Hollande has warned.

The French president said Britain should be punished for Brexit as a warning to other nations.
http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2016/...lande_c1434389
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Old 06-12-2016, 18:30
andykn
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Why do you feel the need to be so rude??

Britain will be made to "pay" for leaving the EU, Francois Hollande has warned.

The French president said Britain should be punished for Brexit as a warning to other nations.
http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2016/...lande_c1434389
Because you KEEP lying, You've been told twice that the people you're pretending to quote haven't said the things you say they do.

And I've explained that of course the UK must pay it's financial obligations, what on earth makes you think it shouldn't?
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Old 06-12-2016, 18:34
John146
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Because you KEEP lying, You've been told twice that the people you're pretending to quote haven't said the things you say they do.

And I've explained that of course the UK must pay it's financial obligations, what on earth makes you think it shouldn't?
No I don't, I have quoted instances from newspapers, if they are wrong then I cannot be held responsible for that, where have I ever said that the UK will not meet it's financial obligations?

Now perhaps you could stop making things up.

Just as an aside:

Attempts by European leaders to implement a "punishment plan" against Britain will fail and could lead to the breakup of the EU, David Davis has said.

The Brexit secretary used an appearance in the Commons to tell EU leaders including Francois Hollande of France and Angela Merkel of Germany that any attempt to damage Britain “is not a good strategy to pursue”.

Mr Hollande last week said Britain will have to “pay a price” for the Brexit vote.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...herlands-live/
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Old 06-12-2016, 19:00
TelevisionUser
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With all these delays, court hearings etc all this is doing is making it more likely for Soft Brexit which would be the worse thing to happen to our country
To the contrary, it is the only sane option and which is supported by Daniel Hannan and the Adam Smith Institute.

While a hard Brexit with no single market access might appease Bill Cash and Liam "Where's Adam?" Fox, that level of isolation would mean economic disaster for the UK in terms of the pound crashing even lower, service and manufacturing firms fleeing the UK to get into the single market area and a drying up of inward investment. In terms of national GDP, the UK would almost certainly fall behind France.
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Old 06-12-2016, 20:39
Mesostim
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Attempts by European leaders to implement a "punishment plan" against Britain will fail and could lead to the breakup of the EU, David Davis has said.
Tut... project fear.
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Old 06-12-2016, 21:53
Hazy Davy
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Even as a Leave Voter, I'd rather stay in the EU if the only other option is a "Soft Brexit" which is much worse off than we are now.
Probably a very minority view.

Under EFTA/EEA membership we would not get a vote on rule changes on the Single Market. Most of such changes are of a dry technical nature and we would have a right to be on the technical committees that do the research for changes, we just would be excluded from the final decision.
You may have read that Norway say they don't know what legislation is coming down the line but they often choose not to get involved in the committees.

On the other hand the benefits include being able to make trade agreements with countries outside the EEA, not have to be involved in the political integration bit, ever closer union, common foreign and security policy and could leave the EEA at a year's notice -none of this Article 50 nonsense. So a move to the EEA under EFTA allows us time to sort ourselves out with the rest of the world before we have to renegotiate trade with Europe.

Quite how someone who voted leave can think full fat Eu membership with the eventual aim of one supranational government is better that EFTA/EEA (which might only be temporary) is something I find strange.
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Old 06-12-2016, 21:58
Hazy Davy
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The only real Brexit is hard Brexit.

Soft Brexit means we are still in the EU in all but name - still Paying in, still in the single market, still subject to freedom of movement, still subject to EU laws, still unable to sign our own treaties but with no voting rights or say in how it's run. It's arguably worse than staying in as we have no say at all.
It would make us subject to 27 % of Eu laws. We would be able to make our own treaties except for trade agreements with the other members of the EEA - because the EEA agreement ithe trade agreement between those countries.
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Old 06-12-2016, 22:02
tghe-retford
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Even as a Leave Voter, I'd rather stay in the EU if the only other option is a "Soft Brexit" which is much worse off than we are now. It's very meh and wishy washy.
I agree. "Soft Brexit" is nothing more than a constellation prize for the remain voters - all the disadvantages and cost with none of the advantages or say. And one the EU will go against - the EU will not allow for a "soft Brexit". Ideally, I'd prefer "full Brexit" but I would rather the UK stayed in the EU, despite the criticism and concerns regarding it than end up as a broke zombie in limbo as "soft Brexit" will make us end up in.
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Old 06-12-2016, 22:07
Hazy Davy
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It should be Hard Brexit. There was no other option mentioned before the referendum (both sides were explicit in leaving the single market and ending free movment) and the soft option only seem to appear by remainers after they lost.

Even if we stay I don't think we would be welcomed back with open arms.

But I Agree with the damage that is being done by those trying to delay or stop the process. I'm sure just to say "I told you so".
Yes there was. At the time of the referendum I had heard about the Norway option and had been made well aware by the campaigns that EFTA /EEA was a possible outcome.
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Old 06-12-2016, 22:18
andykn
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No I don't, I have quoted instances from newspapers, if they are wrong then I cannot be held responsible for that,
Of course you can once it pointed out that the article doesn't say what you claimed it does. You are responsible for what you post and if you post things you've been told are wrong you are are lying.
where have I ever said that the UK will not meet it's financial obligations?
Where you object to "Britain will be made to "pay" for leaving the EU, Francois Hollande has warned."
Now perhaps you could stop making things up.
You should remember what you have said.
Just as an aside:

Attempts by European leaders to implement a "punishment plan" against Britain will fail and could lead to the breakup of the EU, David Davis has said.

The Brexit secretary used an appearance in the Commons to tell EU leaders including Francois Hollande of France and Angela Merkel of Germany that any attempt to damage Britain “is not a good strategy to pursue”.

Mr Hollande last week said Britain will have to “pay a price” for the Brexit vote.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...herlands-live/
Just as an aside another Brexiteer trying to blame problems he's helped make on someone else.
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Old 06-12-2016, 22:20
andykn
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Tut... project fear.
Project "make up stuff for the stupid and gullible to lap up to cover my incompetence" more like.
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Old 06-12-2016, 22:24
andykn
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Yes there was. At the time of the referendum I had heard about the Norway option and had been made well aware by the campaigns that EFTA /EEA was a possible outcome.
Indeed the official Leave campaign mentions Iceland, an EEA member.
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Old 06-12-2016, 22:32
MARTYM8
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It would make us subject to 27 % of Eu laws. We would be able to make our own treaties except for trade agreements with the other members of the EEA - because the EEA agreement ithe trade agreement between those countries.
The leave campaigns clear message was take back control - of our borders, our trade and ouar laws. Leave won despite anything and everything thrown against it from Obama to the IMF to Ryanair.

Only a hard Brexit really delivers that - cos if the EU still decides some of our laws and the European courts can still override ours then we don't actually have control at all do we.
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Old 06-12-2016, 22:36
Eurostar
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The leave campaigns clear message was take back control - of our borders, our trade and our laws. Leave won despite anything and everything thrown against it from Obama to the IMF to Ryanair.

Only a hard Brexit really delivers that - cos if the EU still decides some of our laws and the European courts can still override ours then we don't actually have control at all do we.
This does beg the question of course whether people were told outright lies, that the UK could indeed have its cake and eat it ie. end freedom of movement for good, 'take back control' and 'become sovereign' again and yet carry on trading with or inside the Single Market as if nothing had even happened.
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Old 06-12-2016, 22:50
Hazy Davy
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Even Donald Tusk said a few weeks ago that he felt the only two options were a hard Brexit or no Brexit at all. The UK quitting the EU but then effectively applying for membership of the EEA and the Single Market would certainly be a peculiar outcome. Many people around Europe would no doubt ask "Why did you even leave?".
Because the Eu at its heart is fundamentally a political project rather than an economic one. It's about stopping the conflicts that have plagued Europe for the 150 years before it was formed. Its about stopping Europe returning to the rubble of the first world war and through peace allowing them a chance of prosperity. It's about stopping the ever changing borders.
The people of Europe know it's a political project and that is why they support it. We, with 900 years of roughly stable borders, have only seen it as a economic project and don't see the political benefits in the same way. Most people didn't care either way until their jobs, wages and services were seen as threatened by large scale immigration from Eastern Europe after 2007. It never topped people's list of concerns and leaving was only of interest to a few right wing nationalists.
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