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Soft Brexit Or No Brexit? Those Are The Options It Seems..


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Old 06-12-2016, 23:00
Eurostar
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Because the Eu at its heart is fundamentally a political project rather than an economic one. It's about stopping the conflicts that have plagued Europe for the 150 years before it was formed. Its about stopping Europe returning to the rubble of the first world war and through peace allowing them a chance of prosperity. It's about stopping the ever changing borders.
The people of Europe know it's a political project and that is why they support it. We, with 900 years of roughly stable borders, have only seen it as a economic project and don't see the political benefits in the same way. Most people didn't care either way until their jobs, wages and services were seen as threatened by large scale immigration from Eastern Europe after 2007. It never topped people's list of concerns and leaving was only of interest to a few right wing nationalists.
Yes, fair comments but there's absolutely nothing wrong with it being a political union or project providing everyone is on board and happy enough with that. We're not talking about a USSR type set up where one country has invaded a load of others and forced them into a political union.

One other key factor is that the UK were late arrivals to the party. They may have secretly felt they never really belonged and that the EEC / EU was really a continental European thing. A surprising number of British people will say that they don't feel European or that they belong to Europe (it can't be entirely down to being an island nation as countries like Ireland, Iceland, Cyprus and Malta have no problem with saying they feel European).
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Old 06-12-2016, 23:15
Hazy Davy
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The leave campaigns clear message was take back control - of our borders, our trade and ouar laws. Leave won despite anything and everything thrown against it from Obama to the IMF to Ryanair.

Only a hard Brexit really delivers that - cos if the EU still decides some of our laws and the European courts can still override ours then we don't actually have control at all do we.
Actually what the campaigns said is largely a Red herring.As it was a referendum rather than an election it was just opinions rather than seeking a mandate. Just because they said something was no reason to believe them (they are politicians afterall ) as they were not going to be held to account.

On the subject of trade laws the concept of having control is rapidly becoming dated. With globalisation standards are becoming global andthe Eu doesn't have total control either, although it's big enough to have significant influence. Yes we maybe able to have different rules but in most cases - what's the point? Industry wants harmonised rules.

On control of borders - that's why the leave vote was as large as it was. People like Farage exploited it, even though a few years ago he was talking about leaving the Eu for the EEA and staying in the single market. They knew there was votes in it. (The right wing Tories who are so anti-eu have done nothing to stop non Eu immigration for years but use the anti immigration votr when it suits their cause).

You are likely to get your wish. Mrs May, Boris and David Davis are still putting control of our borders as no 1 in the list, so hard Brexit it is likely to be.
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Old 06-12-2016, 23:30
Eurostar
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Actually what the campaigns said is largely a Red herring.As it was a referendum rather than an election it was just opinions rather than seeking a mandate. Just because they said something was no reason to believe them (they are politicians afterall ) as they were not going to be held to account.

On the subject of trade laws the concept of having control is rapidly becoming dated. With globalisation standards are becoming global andthe Eu doesn't have total control either, although it's big enough to have significant influence. Yes we maybe able to have different rules but in most cases - what's the point? Industry wants harmonised rules.

On control of borders - that's why the leave vote was as large as it was. People like Farage exploited it, even though a few years ago he was talking about leaving the Eu for the EEA and staying in the single market. They knew there was votes in it. (The right wing Tories who are so anti-eu have done nothing to stop non Eu immigration for years but use the anti immigration votr when it suits their cause).

You are likely to get your wish. Mrs May, Boris and David Davis are still putting control of our borders as no 1 in the list, so hard Brexit it is likely to be.
The Brexit strategists said themselves they deliberately went after the subject of immigration and 'taking back control' as they felt these would be vote winners. It was definitely a somewhat cynical exercise : if they had felt immigration was an unpopular subject to highlight, then they would scarcely have even mentioned it and brought up something else instead and portrayed it as a crisis for Britain and something that could only be solved by the UK leaving the EU.
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Old 07-12-2016, 05:48
platelet
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Leave and Remainers, put down your differences and come together for the good of the UK !

instead of fighting about what happened the vote to leave the EU.. we are leaving, that much is clear. Time to accept that and move forward.

For the good of the country, please move on..
You're absolutely right of course. Whilst the people clearly voted to declare war on Germany on June the 23rd - Cameron has welched on his promise and run away.

We just have to accept that WWIII will not materialise as we were promised; Johnny foreigner will just have to wait for his next bashing; and draw comfort that our sovereign parliament will deliver instead the only solution to satisfy all of the people - Schadenfreude that the other side didn't get what they wanted either

On a positive note it will at least keep the forum busy till the next Labour rebellion
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Old 07-12-2016, 06:12
rusty123
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Listening to the EU mood music the options are no Brexit or hard Brexit. There is no soft Brexit option.

Some will rightly point out that's obviously going to be their initial bargaining position but I'm struggling to see why we might expect them to blink first when it comes to making concessions.

It's in their interest to offer nothing and try and scare us back to the polls for another referendum isn't it?

The EU will have taken note that there was only 4 points separating the in and out two camps. They'll look at the political arguments going on in the UK and the court cases and all the talk of soft Brexits. They might even conclude that our individual need is greater than their collective one (particularly now that they've agreed that deal with Canada which will help soften any potential trade blow caused by us leaving).

If I were a poker player I might be tempted to think I'd rather have their hand than ours, particularly if I felt I had less to lose by calling the other's bluff.
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