DS Forums

 
 

Angela Merkel calls for ban on burqa in Germany


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-12-2016, 18:44
soma_
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 650
Is there a German election soon?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7458536.html

Hasn't she had a decade in office to do this?
so the 'problem' isnt burka wearers but the fascistic right that she's having to pander to.

Germany’s potential burqa ban has a problem: Where are the burqas?
soma_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 06-12-2016, 18:47
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,728
This stunned me. So 'Banning the Burqa' has become a political point scoring issue and not the male attitudes that have made it an issue in the first place..?

It was reported today that a boy was raped in Sweden by a group of Afghani's and yet - the Burqa is what we really need to fight - right?
Is this just a case of picking on the easiest, quietest but, visible target? How about tackling the general misogyny their religion/culture inspires?

How about tackling proper and appropriate integration?

Nope - let's pick on the poor sods that have zero voice either way.
Like I said in my previous post, I've hardly seen anyone wearing a burqa in my life. This is in the UK though, I can't speak for how prevalent burqa wearing in Germany is.
But nevertheless I can't imagine it being a pressing issue which is high on the list of priorities.
As such I agree with you that it's a soft target which doesn't really address anybody or help anybody. It just seems to be a very cheap way to attempt to cling onto votes. Which I think most people will see through.

It's nearly as boneheaded as the French authorities banning the burquni recently. Again, it's bloody stupid and simply doesn't address the real concerns of most people who have issues with some of the crazy immigration policies.
It does pick on the smallest minority of people who are causing the least harm. It was truly something to be ashamed of seeing the photograph of French police with the Muslim woman on a beach trying to get her to remove her swimwear.

I don't know what is going on in their heads. These politicians I mean. Is this about some prejudice going on in their own minds, and they think that this is what offends the average person?
Or is it some kind of distraction tactic to try to make it appear as if the problem is something they find easier to deal with?
I honestly don't know.
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 18:56
soma_
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 650
This stunned me. So 'Banning the Burqa' has become a political point scoring issue and not the male attitudes that have made it an issue in the first place..?

It was reported today that a boy was raped in Sweden by a group of Afghani's and yet - the Burqa is what we really need to fight - right?
Is this just a case of picking on the easiest, quietest but, visible target? How about tackling the general misogyny their religion/culture inspires?

How about tackling proper and appropriate integration?

Nope - let's pick on the poor sods that have zero voice either way.
the irony of mainly white men telling women what not to wear and not recognising the misogyny in doing so

I can see Trump supporting this but I can't see a bill being put forward in Congress then passing.

What I see happening, however, is Trump encouraging states to do this resulting in a solid amount of red states like Oklahoma, Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia, South Carolina, Texas maybe even the likes of Pennsylvania and Ohio doing it in the next four years.

As for the UK, maybe England and Wales will get it down the line if a terrorist attack happens at some point which the right wing lot of Tories will use to their advantage to get this passed, unsure about Northern Ireland as I don't know if Sinn Fein would be keen on it and Scotland definitely not as I can't see any of Nicola, Ruth or Kezia supporting it.
could you show me the research that has shown a significant statistical link between women in usa/uk/europe wearing burka and terrorism. thanks.

There are some brainwashed people around here. The burkha should never have been allowed here in the first place, it's disgusting.
why not? why do you feel that you have the right to be telling women what to wear?

But the burqa is a symptom of that misogyny.
theres no proven linkage. i suppose expecting women to be half naked is misogyny too.

the issue is really about male insecurity and the fact women are in total control of what is visible to men. its not supposed to be that way is it.
soma_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 18:59
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,728
so the 'problem' isnt burka wearers but the fascistic right that she's having to pander to.

Germany’s potential burqa ban has a problem: Where are the burqas?
But as I see it wearing a burqa hardly figures highly into most of the heated arguments I've seen about Islam. It seems like a non-issue to most people.
This burqa stuff seems to mainly come from politicians for some reason.
I'm sure some of you will be able to remember quite far back now how Jack Straw made a public statement about how he felt that the burqa was wrong and that people shouldn't wear it. That was around the year 2000.

It always seem to come from politicians.

I've seen the burqa being brought up as a symbol of oppression from time to time in discussion, but really as far as I see it it figures very low on the list of problems in some of the most heated discussions about Muslims and immigration. It's not seen as a good thing, but it's hardly seen to be the major problem with most people like the politicans might have you believe. To my mind it's an almost insignificant issue compared to other things.
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 19:05
soma_
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 650
Like I said in my previous post, I've hardly seen anyone wearing a burqa in my life. This is in the UK though, I can't speak for how prevalent burqa wearing in Germany is.
But nevertheless I can't imagine it being a pressing issue which is high on the list of priorities.
As such I agree with you that it's a soft target which doesn't really address anybody or help anybody. It just seems to be a very cheap way to attempt to cling onto votes. Which I think most people will see through.

It's nearly as boneheaded as the French authorities banning the burquni recently. Again, it's bloody stupid and simply doesn't address the real concerns of most people who have issues with some of the crazy immigration policies.
It does pick on the smallest minority of people who are causing the least harm. It was truly something to be ashamed of seeing the photograph of French police with the Muslim woman on a beach trying to get her to remove her swimwear.

I don't know what is going on in their heads. These politicians I mean. Is this about some prejudice going on in their own minds, and they think that this is what offends the average person?
Or is it some kind of distraction tactic to try to make it appear as if the problem is something they find easier to deal with?
I honestly don't know.
in uk its estimated that between 1000-2000 women wear the burka. in france the french government estimated 2000 .

politicians are reacting to the shouty fascistic right who say they are not allowed to say anything because of PC. its pandering to the red neck sensibilities of a violent minority.

as for immigration in uk over 40 years on average has been 0.4% / year . its not about immigration its really about neo liberal thatcherite policies. but why would politicians, wealthy and corporates - all of whom have been beneficiaries of these policies point fingers at themmselves.

far easier to scapegoat the weakest, voiceless in society.
soma_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 19:06
tiggertiny
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,158
There's no law against being an idiot. If an obese person, for example, wanted to wear speedos in the high street then it's their problem not ours (well apart from trying to blank out the image).

If your argument is that women shouldn't wear burkas because it oppresses women then you have to start thinking of banning Jewish women wearing the Sheitel, perhaps ban marriage ceremonies where men and women are separated, schools where boys and girls are separated...

... where does it end?
Ideally ban religion as the ridiculous superstitious nonsense that it is.
tiggertiny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 19:08
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,728
in uk its estimated that between 1000-2000 women wear the burka. in france the french government estimated 2000 .

far easier to scapegoat the weakest, voiceless in society.
Yes, like I said fukc all.
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 19:11
Blairdennon
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 12,730
Actually where it is a reenactment or fancy dress or just a bit of idiocy it is not but if it is considered a political uniform then it does fall foul of a Public Order act. That was the point I was trying to make that a political uniform (and there is little doubt that many use the Burqua as a political statement) is against the law.
Blairdennon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 19:14
Blairdennon
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 12,730
I should have added mankinis to my list of idiotic things to wear.

What happened to these men was deplorable; intolerance always is. Let's not increase it's occurence, shall we?
Too late. I will ask the question that so many ask on here in a rather holier than thou way. Why should we tolerate intolerance?
Blairdennon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 19:14
intoxication
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,283
And anyway, how many people actually wear the burqa anyway? Is she actually talking about the burqa or the niqab? I don't know about in Germany but in the UK I've very rarely seen anyone wear a burqa. I think it's a lot rarer than people think.
Maybe it depends where you're from, I see loads of of women wearing a burqa and at spot at least one woman wearing one daily. It doesn't bother me though, they can wear it if they want to and are not likely to interact with me - a male - anyway. However I have never once in my life seen a woman wear one whilst working a customer-related job like another poster said and I live in a multicultural area. That might make it difficult as I rely on some lip reading too but I've never come across it.
intoxication is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 19:17
soma_
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 650
But as I see it wearing a burqa hardly figures highly into most of the heated arguments I've seen about Islam. It seems like a non-issue to most people.
This burqa stuff seems to mainly come from politicians for some reason.
I'm sure some of you will be able to remember quite far back now how Jack Straw made a public statement about how he felt that the burqa was wrong and that people shouldn't wear it. That was around the year 2000.

It always seem to come from politicians.

I've seen the burqa being brought up as a symbol of oppression from time to time in discussion, but really as far as I see it it figures very low on the list of problems in some of the most heated discussions about Muslims and immigration. It's not seen as a good thing, but it's hardly seen to be the major problem with most people like the politicans might have you believe. To my mind it's an almost insignificant issue compared to other things.
its directly from the fascist right handbook. its been the mainstay of bnp/nf/edl/pegida/ukip . it is very much part of the narrative of the daily mail/express/telegraph/times etc .. there are politicians that are sympathetic to these prejudices.

the political classes understand the power of the media aligned with populist fascistic rhetoric and the weakest pander to it or else the media will chew them up. just look at the way corbyn is attacked for his logical immigration stance.

fact is immigration is a factor of the economy. no politician can stop it because it limits the capacity of corporates/business and the lack of investment into infrastructure is offset by having educated skilled semi skilled immigrants (that we havent paid for), unskilled are necessary to maintain the fabric of our society - the dirty work that we will not undertake. this in an ageing society.

the reason why merkel sought large scale immigration is because there is a need for young productive migrants to offset germanys population issues. and migrants = growth in gdp.

its much the same reason blair/tories have pursued the same policy except recruiting from across europe. they had hoped white eu immigration would not create societal backlash. point is uk needs migrants for economic needs.

the blair government ran with anti islam narrative because uk was intent on ransacking - asset strip - the mid east. it needed to justify uk's crimes. this also had the effect of feeding the narrative amongst the fascistic right that was then getting in their minds 'legitimacy' because of government political needs
soma_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 19:18
Dotheboyshall
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,307
Too late. I will ask the question that so many ask on here in a rather holier than thou way. Why should we tolerate intolerance?
How can you fight intolerance with intolerance?

As a whole women wearing the burka are not Evil Islamist Terrorists so what is the logic behind banning the burka?
Dotheboyshall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 19:27
Blairdennon
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 12,730
So the solution is further intolerance


Why should it be banned? Do you think that female Muslims should be punished further?
One does not make legal an act of abuse because it may mean that the abuse will be worse. The female Muslims are British citizens/residents and as such have access to, and the protection of, all the laws the rest of us have. WE do not allow men to beat their wives in public because it is feared that if they were not allowed to it would be much worse in private. If the wearing of the Burqua is perceived to be a form of abuse then in all honesty we cannot allow its continuance.
Blairdennon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 19:33
soma_
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 650
One does not make legal an act of abuse because it may mean that the abuse will be worse. The female Muslims are British citizens/residents and as such have access to, and the protection of, all the laws the rest of us have. WE do not allow men to beat their wives in public because it is feared that if they were not allowed to it would be much worse in private. If the wearing of the Burqua is perceived to be a form of abuse then in all honesty we cannot allow its continuance.
so its about your/others perceptions but not the fact that it is entirely the choice of the wearer.

its all about how you feel.
soma_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 19:39
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,728
Maybe it depends where you're from, I see loads of of women wearing a burqa and at spot at least one woman wearing one daily. It doesn't bother me though, they can wear it if they want to and are not likely to interact with me - a male - anyway. However I have never once in my life seen a woman wear one whilst working a customer-related job like another poster said and I live in a multicultural area. That might make it difficult as I rely on some lip reading too but I've never come across it.
You're right, there may be areas where it's more common than others.
You raise an interesting point though, in that I've never seen anyone wearing a burqa in a job which requires public interaction.
Of course there must be some who do, but I've never encountered such a person in my life. Doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but it must be rare.
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 19:40
Blairdennon
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 12,730
How can you fight intolerance with intolerance?

As a whole women wearing the burka are not Evil Islamist Terrorists so what is the logic behind banning the burka?
Precisely, I was facetiously quoting an oft heard phrase as regards those who support UAF and the like. Here is just one example.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...nt-intolerance
Blairdennon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 19:42
Jenny_Sawyer
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 5,360
I'm genuinely shocked that Merkel has said something sensible.
Jenny_Sawyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 19:49
Blairdennon
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 12,730
so its about your/others perceptions but not the fact that it is entirely the choice of the wearer.

its all about how you feel.
?? No it is about abuse and the law. If wearing the Burqua is not abuse there is no need. If it is forced on to a person against their will it is abuse. The fact that sometimes it may be and sometimes it may not be does not remove the fact that sometimes it is . I never said it was easy but on balance those who see themselves religiously restricted because they cannot appear in public without being suitably covered are imposing a restriction on themselves, a husband demanding his wife is suitably covered is imposing a restriction on another human being and the right not to be abused in public should win.
Blairdennon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 20:31
Dotheboyshall
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,307
If the wearing of the Burqua is perceived to be a form of abuse then in all honesty we cannot allow its continuance.
Do you have evidence that ALL wearers of the burka are being abused? Should someone who chooses to wear a burka be forced not to wear it? Are you going to argue that Orthodox Jewish women who wear wigs are being abused because that's where your argument leads.
Dotheboyshall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 21:50
BRITLAND
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,219
trump supports hatred, it makes it easier to control the masses.


I can see a lot of Tories voting AGAINST it on purely moral grounds.
Nah, most will do what the whip tells them. If Theresa May decides to be more tough on stuff like this due to public opinion showing that this would be a popular law, most of her MPs will obey her in hope for obvious future promotions
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/31...cks-burka-ban/

Alot of Tory MPs actually campaigned for it back in 2013 in the alternative Queen's speech. I imagine the majority of the party will also be in favour of it.
http://www.conservativehome.com/thet...bel-bills.html
BRITLAND is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 22:11
Under Soul
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,039
Like I said in my previous post, I've hardly seen anyone wearing a burqa in my life. This is in the UK though, I can't speak for how prevalent burqa wearing in Germany is..
Surprised - you see burqas fairly often in London especially around Edgware Road/Oxford street. Maybe some are Saudi tourists shopping? I agree it's not right to ban it apart from in professional and for security reasons. I struggle a bit with students being allowed to wear them though,
Under Soul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 22:20
Ads
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Pimlico, central London, UK
Posts: 14,870
Surely the sensible compromise is not to ban it, as its not right the state banning items of clothing - however burqas must not be worn in places where no one else is allowed to cover their face, such as at airports and banks?
Ads is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 22:22
ianradioian
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 24,307
the irony of mainly white men telling women what not to wear and not recognising the misogyny in doing so



"could you show me the research that has shown a significant statistical link between women in usa/uk/europe wearing burka and terrorism. thanks."

A terrorist escaped from the UK by boarding a flight dressed in a burka in the early/ mid 2000s, I recall.



"why not? why do you feel that you have the right to be telling women what to wear?"

Muslim men do.


theres no proven linkage. i suppose expecting women to be half naked is misogyny too.

"the issue is really about male insecurity and the fact women are in total control of what is visible to men. its not supposed to be that way is it. "

And your point is what? The religion and Men who follow the religion are telling the women they have to wear the burka.
The burka is a sign of power over women by a religion who do not treat them as equals.
ianradioian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 22:24
ianradioian
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 24,307
I'm genuinely shocked that Merkel has said something sensible.
Shes only said it in order to try and protect her votes. She will be out.
ianradioian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 22:25
HopesandDreams
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 713
I'm genuinely shocked that Merkel has said something sensible.
Agreed. I would support a ban here in the UK too, it has no place in our Country, want to live here, you live by our rules and show some damn respect, the same as their culture would expect of us if we were to visit their Countries. Don't like our western culture, then do not come here.
HopesandDreams is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply




 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:27.