DS Forums

 
 

Angela Merkel calls for ban on burqa in Germany


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-12-2016, 22:59
Granny McSmith
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,071
Too late. I will ask the question that so many ask on here in a rather holier than thou way. Why should we tolerate intolerance?
We shouldn't. Burqa-wearing women should definitely not be allowed to dictate to you about what you wear. There, I've solved your problem.

(Personally, I think we should all dress like the elves in Lord of the Rings, but that's just me.....)

Agreed. I would support a ban here in the UK too, it has no place in our Country, want to live here, you live by our rules and show some damn respect, the same as their culture would expect of us if we were to visit their Countries. Don't like our western culture, then do not come here.
If you like our tolerant society, and think it an advance on other, less tolerant ones, why do you want to change it into what you don't like?
Granny McSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 06-12-2016, 23:36
Blairdennon
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 12,746
We shouldn't. Burqa-wearing women should definitely not be allowed to dictate to you about what you wear. There, I've solved your problem.

(Personally, I think we should all dress like the elves in Lord of the Rings, but that's just me.....)



If you like our tolerant society, and think it an advance on other, less tolerant ones, why do you want to change it into what you don't like?
I know we should not but it is the standard answer when one asks why legal political parties such as the BNP and legal pressure groups such as the EDL are attacked physically and illegally.
I would not wish to dictate what Burkha wearing women should wear but I have to balance that with the desire to ensure that neither should they be dictated to as regards what they should wear by male religious adherents. I would have thought that desire would receive widespread support.
Blairdennon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 23:36
oathy
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 22,156
Is there a German election soon?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7458536.html

Hasn't she had a decade in office to do this?
Her stance with the UK also changed. Funny that speaking at her party Conference
to accept carrying on being the leader.

These stupid bans or talk of them just grab headlines. They should just focus on the issues of non integration and this covers that. Brexit occurred because people felt local communities just weren't the same. I noticed that issue I raised here in Llanelli
has happened in other towns. Teachers being asked to speak polish

The Burqa is such an emotive issue you can see she's clearly worried about the elections. But again still refusing to see the bigger picture you can allow as many people in as you want, But if a large percentage of them aren't willing to integrate
or even accept the rule of law.
oathy is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2016, 23:44
Blairdennon
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 12,746
Do you have evidence that ALL wearers of the burka are being abused? Should someone who chooses to wear a burka be forced not to wear it? Are you going to argue that Orthodox Jewish women who wear wigs are being abused because that's where your argument leads.
I do not have evidence that ALL women who wear the Burkha do so out of enforcement but there is considerable evidence that some women in the UK are indeed forced to wear the clothing. I have said above several times that it is a balance and many of our laws are based on balance. I will repeat if a women is forced to wear the Burkha in public that is a problem of abuse, if a women is stopped from wearing the Burkha in public by law then that is a problem for the individual to deal with as regards their choice on religious observance. So the balance is tolerating abuse to appease religious choices or not tolerating abuse but upsetting religious adherents. I would have though that was not a choice.
Blairdennon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 00:31
MargMck
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 17,637
This is the thing that pees off those of us who lip read.
http://www.chatelaine.com/wp-content...ab-660x506.jpg
The niqab. The burkha wearers hardly interact, but I've been served in shops in Hounslow by niqab wearers, and the school we refused to send my granddaughter to had niqab wearers as classroom assistants.

Merkel's political allies have previously spoken out against the burqa, and students have been stopped from wearing the niqab in German schools.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7204671.html
MargMck is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 00:54
FusionFury
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,884
Our PM doesn't have the leadership to waltz into a press conference and come out with some shocking statements like that. It's all rehearsed leaked stuff so no shocks with May.. Just a safe pair of hands as she won't rock the boat too much ! Keep things the same etc

Paul Nutall made this his priority in becoming UKIP leader and a week later look.. Germany are finally catching on !

Says a lot someone like Paul Nutall who is more in touch with British people and what needs to be done than our own PM !
FusionFury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 06:26
towers
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Midlands, UK
Posts: 10,943
I don't always agree with James O'Brian on LBC but I did agree when he said that women covering their whole identity - as encouraged by either their families or an ancient religion - is worrying. There are even young women who have admitted to wearing it not for religious reasons but to annoy mum and dad, who would rather they didn't wear it.

Burkas are unfriendly, unnatural - you can't see properly and you stop your skin from getting vitamin D - and is arguably about women having to hide who they are from men who aren't their husbands, fathers or brothers. How tedious to feel that you have to cover your face EVERY TIME you leave the front door.

We've got white men in the UK wanting to dress as women and young boys wanting to wear a skirt to school but you can bet there are no Muslim men who want the right to wear the full face burka.
towers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 08:06
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,741
Surprised - you see burqas fairly often in London especially around Edgware Road/Oxford street. Maybe some are Saudi tourists shopping? I agree it's not right to ban it apart from in professional and for security reasons. I struggle a bit with students being allowed to wear them though,
It just shows you how your immediate location and personal experience has an influence on how you see matters. I wasn't aware that burqas are more common in London than where I'm living. Now I know.

I didn't say that it's not right to ban it though.
But since you brought it up I'll say that I think it's a stupid idea to ban people from wearing certain sorts of clothes by law and I can see no good reason.
However I believe that private employers should reserve the right to have their own dress code for what they believe to be acceptable for their own private business.

But banning an item of clothing in public flies in the face of everything we're supposed to believe and uphold in the UK. Just because somebody doesn't like to see something should be no reason to ban it,

As I said before, I think Merkel probably has a weird mindset where people in her elite world seem to genuinely think that a lot of the public criticism of her policies are about how people look. She doesn't seem to have a bloody clue because she's cut off from the lives of average people. She probably genuinely believes that the plebs are all racist and this measure is something she can win them over with.

OR, this burqa nonsense is a diversion tactic which could only satisfy a very small minority who genuinely are driven by petty bigotry over someone wearing a burqa.

It doesn't actually do a thing to address the real problems which have occurred due to her utterly insane policies.
I can even see a potential situation with more people wearing burqas over this as an act of defiance and rebellion. It's a stupid idea and probably creates more problems than it solves, if it solves any at all.
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 08:15
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,741
Surely the sensible compromise is not to ban it, as its not right the state banning items of clothing - however burqas must not be worn in places where no one else is allowed to cover their face, such as at airports and banks?
If the German public agree with her and think it's a good idea then they are inadvertently sanctioning a society where the government can enforce bans and censor anything which affects them personally too.
I'd like to think that the German public can see this.
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 08:30
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,741
I know we should not but it is the standard answer when one asks why legal political parties such as the BNP and legal pressure groups such as the EDL are attacked physically and illegally.
I would not wish to dictate what Burkha wearing women should wear but I have to balance that with the desire to ensure that neither should they be dictated to as regards what they should wear by male religious adherents. I would have thought that desire would receive widespread support.
I think that this is the crux of the problem.
I think that multiculturalism is a good thing....to a point.
But if it gets to the point where multiple cultures become parallel societies where different rules start to apply for different people then there are huge problems in store for the host country.
On one hand I believe that people should have the freedom to wear whatever clothing they want, unless of course as has already been mentioned in certain employment situations, but on the other hand an imported culture should not enforce rules which go against the laws of the land in the predominant host culture.

I think that on the whole it has been shown that multi-ethnicity is a great thing as it has the capacity to break down barriers based on ignorance. However when it comes to multiculturalism that seems to be highly dependent on how those different cultures interact and where they come into conflict with each other. Because everybody has to adhere to the same rules, laws, and standards if we believe in an equal society. You can't have different rules and laws depending on who you are.

You can't live in a country where its values say that freedom of expression is an important value and is a good thing, but on the other hand accept the rules and laws of a different subculture which may prevent women from wearing what they want and make them wear certain clothes. The two things just aren't compatible.

I'm sure that there are women who say that they want to wear the burqa or the niqab or whatever. They can wear what they want. But what about the women who aren't happy being told what they can or can't wear by the subculture they belong to and they see the majority of women in this country wearing whatever they want? Where is their freedom? Are they expected to just suck it up?
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 08:40
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,741
Her stance with the UK also changed. Funny that speaking at her party Conference
to accept carrying on being the leader.

These stupid bans or talk of them just grab headlines. They should just focus on the issues of non integration and this covers that. Brexit occurred because people felt local communities just weren't the same. I noticed that issue I raised here in Llanelli
has happened in other towns. Teachers being asked to speak polish

The Burqa is such an emotive issue you can see she's clearly worried about the elections. But again still refusing to see the bigger picture you can allow as many people in as you want, But if a large percentage of them aren't willing to integrate
or even accept the rule of law.
I agree. I think for the most part the UK hasn't done too bad with immigration. Because the numbers haven't been too large up until recently, it's been over a sustained period of time, and people have had time to integrate.

But I think the big problem is too many too fast.

Most people believed that when the USSR fell apart suddenly everybody in Russia and its surrounding regions would be living in a happy democracy. It didn't quite work out that way and it actually released huge problems which hadn't been accounted for.
Similarly in the middle east when regimes had been toppled over the last couple of decades, it was assumed that democracy would just sort of take hold overnight. But instead terrible forces were unleashed.
Any society which goes through such a rapid change is likely to encounter huge problems which could be catastrophic for a long time. People need time to adjust, They probably need the time it takes for about two generations to come along.
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 08:46
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,741
This is the thing that pees off those of us who lip read.
http://www.chatelaine.com/wp-content...ab-660x506.jpg
The niqab. The burkha wearers hardly interact, but I've been served in shops in Hounslow by niqab wearers, and the school we refused to send my granddaughter to had niqab wearers as classroom assistants.

Merkel's political allies have previously spoken out against the burqa, and students have been stopped from wearing the niqab in German schools.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7204671.html
It's possible that perhaps Germany have looked over at France and seen how the problems are developing at a rapid pace, and they think they still have time to address the issue before it becomes a problem which can't be reversed. There are neighbourhoods in France which have become separate societies, and maybe Germany think that with all these immigrants they have to work much harder at integrating them into German society before problems start to escalate and get too far out of control.
Maybe that's how Merkel is looking at it?
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 10:00
Granny McSmith
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,071
I would not wish to dictate what Burkha wearing women should wear but I have to balance that with the desire to ensure that neither should they be dictated to as regards what they should wear by male religious adherents. I would have thought that desire would receive widespread support.
Women wear the burqa through choice or through coercion - you can't know which. Even if asked, they may not give a truthful answer.

Similarly people may want to ban the burqa from the best, or the worst of motives. No way to tell, as they're bound to say it's from the best, aren't they?
Granny McSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 10:07
jmclaugh
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Devon
Posts: 47,995
Yep, a spot of electioneering.
jmclaugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 10:42
soma_
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 650
?? No it is about abuse and the law. If wearing the Burqua is not abuse there is no need. If it is forced on to a person against their will it is abuse. The fact that sometimes it may be and sometimes it may not be does not remove the fact that sometimes it is . I never said it was easy but on balance those who see themselves religiously restricted because they cannot appear in public without being suitably covered are imposing a restriction on themselves, a husband demanding his wife is suitably covered is imposing a restriction on another human being and the right not to be abused in public should win.
its not against the law. you dont know if its forced or not. so its about your feelings. in islam the husband cant dictate what the woman can or cannot wear.

people confuse religion with cultural behaviour . as can be seen here its mostly men telling a woman what she cant wear.

The burka is a sign of power over women by a religion who do not treat them as equals.
at what point and which edition of the daily express/daily mail/sun did you become an expert of islam and womens rights that it offers.

Our PM doesn't have the leadership to waltz into a press conference and come out with some shocking statements like that. It's all rehearsed leaked stuff so no shocks with May.. Just a safe pair of hands as she won't rock the boat too much ! Keep things the same etc

Paul Nutall made this his priority in becoming UKIP leader and a week later look.. Germany are finally catching on !

Says a lot someone like Paul Nutall who is more in touch with British people and what needs to be done than our own PM !
there are around 1000 wearers in the uk. why is it necessary for you to want to tell these few women what to wear? what is wrong with you and nuttall?

I don't always agree with James O'Brian on LBC but I did agree when he said that women covering their whole identity - as encouraged by either their families or an ancient religion - is worrying. There are even young women who have admitted to wearing it not for religious reasons but to annoy mum and dad, who would rather they didn't wear it.

Burkas are unfriendly, unnatural - you can't see properly and you stop your skin from getting vitamin D - and is arguably about women having to hide who they are from men who aren't their husbands, fathers or brothers. How tedious to feel that you have to cover your face EVERY TIME you leave the front door.

We've got white men in the UK wanting to dress as women and young boys wanting to wear a skirt to school but you can bet there are no Muslim men who want the right to wear the full face burka.
a burka doesnt hide identity any more than a woman with make-up, coloured hair false nails etc . shall we ban all things that obscure ones identity.

im not aware of burka wearers attacking others for what they wear. im aware of non muslim men attacking these vulnerable women. maybe what is unfriendly and unnatural is the response to a woman making a choice. how you feel doesnt matter, nor how you perceive others feel. what matters is how they feel and it being their choice.

in islam men do have a dress code. they need to wear loose clothing and remain covered - specifically from waist to ankles.
soma_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 10:46
soma_
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 650
It's possible that perhaps Germany have looked over at France and seen how the problems are developing at a rapid pace, and they think they still have time to address the issue before it becomes a problem which can't be reversed. There are neighbourhoods in France which have become separate societies, and maybe Germany think that with all these immigrants they have to work much harder at integrating them into German society before problems start to escalate and get too far out of control.
Maybe that's how Merkel is looking at it?
france has historical issues (It has some nasty interventions in africa/mid east), its not something that has developed in recents times. france is also a very racist nation which is in fact practising authoritarian christian secularism.
soma_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 11:26
Granny McSmith
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,071
. There are even young women who have admitted to wearing it not for religious reasons but to annoy mum and dad, who would rather they didn't wear it.

.
One of the reasons I wore mini skirts in my teens! I daresay some people wanted to ban that, too. Probably the mail readers of their day.

If they ban the burqa I'll go out swathed head to toe in a sheet. I would be wearing it because I like it, not for religious reasons. Does that make a difference?
Granny McSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 11:57
IvanIV
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 25,199
One of the reasons I wore mini skirts in my teens! I daresay some people wanted to ban that, too. Probably the mail readers of their day.

If they ban the burqa I'll go out swathed head to toe in a sheet. I would be wearing it because I like it, not for religious reasons. Does that make a difference?
It would lose its appeal if your husband made you wear it.
IvanIV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 12:01
Syntax Error
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 19,941
Is there a German election soon?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7458536.html

Hasn't she had a decade in office to do this?
Ridiculous idea & even if I'm wrong about that, it's far too late to do it now.
Syntax Error is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 12:03
Granny McSmith
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,071
It would lose its appeal if your husband made you wear it.
How do you know he didn't?
Granny McSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 12:44
Maggie 55
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,492



there are around 1000 wearers in the uk. why is it necessary for you to want to tell these few women what to wear? what is wrong with you and nuttall?

.
You just made that up didn't you?
If not, most of them must live around where I do (NW old cotton towns) because when I go into town I see them every day, multiple times. Twenty years ago they were never or hardly ever seen.

This is not a fashion statement, it is coercion by males. The Quran makes no distinction between men and woman, it does not tell women what to wear, it just says Muslims must dress 'modestly'. If it is a sign of religious devotion then why aren't the males going around covered from head to foot in adherence to the tenets of their religion?

It is not religious devotion, it is coercion and/or brainwashing from birth.

Women with free choice would hardly ever choose to wear such garments. If it is free choice why aren't we seeing women outside of Islam regularly wearing similar clothing?

The Germans would not be setting any new principle in banning the wearing of a symbol of adherence to a largely barbaric ideology. They already do and there were nine million adherents of this ideology in Germany not that long ago.



Maggie
Maggie 55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 12:58
paulschapman
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 24,735
No I've not seen them working in full burqas, but with veils across their mouths so you can't see their lips moving.
I have in a street food stall. Interesting point about this stall is that I have never seen any customers - even though we are regular visitors to the stall next door. Not that it is open that often anyway.
paulschapman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 13:06
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,741
You just made that up didn't you?
If not, most of them must live around where I do (NW old cotton towns) because when I go into town I see them every day, multiple times. Twenty years ago they were never or hardly ever seen.

This is not a fashion statement, it is coercion by males. The Quran makes no distinction between men and woman, it does not tell women what to wear, it just says Muslims must dress 'modestly'. If it is a sign of religious devotion then why aren't the males going around covered from head to foot in adherence to the tenets of their religion?

It is not religious devotion, it is coercion and/or brainwashing from birth.

Women with free choice would hardly ever choose to wear such garments. If it is free choice why aren't we seeing women outside of Islam regularly wearing similar clothing?

The Germans would not be setting any new principle in banning the wearing of a symbol of adherence to a largely barbaric ideology. They already do and there were nine million adherents of this ideology in Germany not that long ago.



Maggie
I think you may be speaking at crossed purposes here, because a few posts up soma_ actually did say that the enforcement of wearing the burqa is cultural rather than religious.

But it gets messy, because Islam itself isn't just a religion. It's political as well. So you have a situation where culture, politics, and religion get mixed together as a way of life dictated by the state or particular area..
And even then, the interpretations of Islam can vary from area to area where some areas are more hardline and other areas want to be more moderate.

Wearing the burqa could be a fashion statement if someone wanted it to be. Which is why it's probably stupid for a government to try to ban an item of clothing because that item of clothing can then take up some other symbolic statement of rebellion.

Of course the problem arises if a culture does insist that women wear the burqa against their wishes, in a liberal Western nation. But then it would be tricky to find out every individual's motivation for wearing a burqa, as has been said even if a woman didn't want to wear it she may be forced to say that she does because there may be consequences for her to speak out against a controlling culture.

Banning it is just stupidity though. These politicians learn absolutely nothing. They think that showing how authoritarian they are will work on people. If recent events have shown us anything they have shown us that this is demonstrably the best way to turn people against you.
Idiots.
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 13:09
Ironwithin
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 396
The burqa is a sinister symbol that has no place in Europe.
Ironwithin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 13:11
CLL Dodge
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Green Hills of Earth
Posts: 80,418
They'll all want to come here then.
CLL Dodge is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 20:11.