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Angela Merkel calls for ban on burqa in Germany |
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#101 |
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The burqa is a sinister symbol that has no place in Europe.
You could ban the burqa but it wouldn't address the root cause of the problem. When it has come to banning alcohol or drugs and making them illegal by punishing the users, did it ever actually eradicate the problem if the businesses largely got away with it and simply moved their trade elsewhere to where the business is? No it's not a great analogy but I hope that you sort of get what I mean. Banning the burqa makes a target of the most vulnerable person in the chain. If they are being forced to wear the burqa by societal or cultural pressure then they don't really have much of a choice, and it would be they who may reap some unpleasant consequences. Of course I'm not speaking of those who wear it by choice and are exercising their free will, which for all I know there may be some. And if I say that I'm okay with the burqa being banned because I simply don't like it, it makes it difficult for me to engage with the person, or I find it creepy, that isn't good enough. I need a much better argument than that which is based on more than how I feel about something because it isn't to my taste. |
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#102 |
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Banning the burqa makes a target of the most vulnerable person in the chain. If they are being forced to wear the burqa by societal or cultural pressure then they don't really have much of a choice, and it would be they who may reap some unpleasant consequences. . Let's overturn the ban on FGM for the same reason. Maggie |
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#103 |
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Yeah, brilliant point!
Let's overturn the ban on FGM for the same reason. |
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#104 |
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Quote:
The burqa is a sinister symbol that has no place in Europe.
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#105 |
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Yeah, brilliant point!
Let's overturn the ban on FGM for the same reason. Maggie Wearing certain clothes hasn't. Are you really comparing something as heinous as FGM with someone merely wrapping themselves in a piece of cloth? Seriously, get a grip. |
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#106 |
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This stunned me. So 'Banning the Burqa' has become a political point scoring issue and not the male attitudes that have made it an issue in the first place..?
It was reported today that a boy was raped in Sweden by a group of Afghani's and yet - the Burqa is what we really need to fight - right? Is this just a case of picking on the easiest, quietest but, visible target? How about tackling the general misogyny their religion/culture inspires? How about tackling proper and appropriate integration? Nope - let's pick on the poor sods that have zero voice either way Quote:
The burka is a sign of power over women by a religion who do not treat them as equals.
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But the burqa is a symptom of that misogyny.
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Yeah, brilliant point!
Let's overturn the ban on FGM for the same reason. Maggie |
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#107 |
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Are you really comparing something as heinous as FGM with someone merely wrapping themselves in a piece of cloth? Seriously, get a grip.
Females in some cultures are no better than chattels to be traded and treated on the whim of males. Sexual pleasure that is for men only, freedom to move around and associate freely with others, men only, wearing garments as to your personal choice, men only etc etc. I think physically assaulting women to impose your will is also against the law but is encouraged by many in certain cultures. Where do you start and where do you stop? Maggie |
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#108 |
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The fact that some might see it as "sinister" is not an argument for banning it.
If the reason for banning it is for reasons which are plain wrong because they infringe on somebody's human rights then you have a decent base to argue from and debate with. |
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#109 |
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Physical assault, and causing actual or grievous bodily harm has been a crime for a very long time.
Wearing certain clothes hasn't. Are you really comparing something as heinous as FGM with someone merely wrapping themselves in a piece of cloth? Seriously, get a grip. Luckily for me I don't feel so bad about it now because Maggie 55 responded to my post by using one which was even worse than mine.
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#110 |
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Strikes me that many of the anti-Burka brigade don't know why they want to ban it only that they should.
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#111 |
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its not against the law. you dont know if its forced or not. so its about your feelings. in islam the husband cant dictate what the woman can or cannot wear.
people confuse religion with cultural behaviour . as can be seen here its mostly men telling a woman what she cant wear. . |
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#112 |
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And the women who choose to wear the burqa? It certainly isn't allowing freedom or equality to select only Muslim females and not allow them their choice of clothing. So more to the point, why do you or anyone else need to control them? Let's consider and compare, an item of clothing and female genital mutilation. Not so brilliant point. Unless you really don't know what female genital mutilation is. They may be inadvertently causing harm to those women who don't have a choice by normalizing it. Another crap analogy, it might be a bit like a Jewish person wearing full Nazi regalia at a Bar Mitzvah. |
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#113 |
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Two sides of the same coin.
Females in some cultures are no better than chattels to be traded and treated on the whim of males. Sexual pleasure that is for men only, freedom to move around and associate freely with others, men only, wearing garments as to your personal choice, men only etc etc. I think physically assaulting women to impose your will is also against the law but is encouraged by many in certain cultures. Where do you start and where do you stop? Don't ban someone's choice of garments. Simple. |
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#114 |
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Strikes me that many of the anti-Burka brigade don't know why they want to ban it only that they should.
It is a symbol of the repression of women and an adherence to a medieval backward ideology that has no place in a modern society. Ataturk was right in Turkey, he wanted to move this Islamic nation into the modern world and he started by proscribing a religious symbol, the Fez, people were prosecuted, even executed but the wearing of it stopped. Funny enough he did not ban the hijab or make declarations about female dress as he thought as his new secular based society took hold they would give it up themselves. He was right to a large extent in the cities but not in the more backwards Islamic controlled parts of Turkish society. By the 1970s, though discouraging headscarves had taken on the force of law. The headscarf was banned in government offices, hospitals, universities, and schools. Of course we have seen the rise of Islam again in Turkey, now the ban is overturned, Erdogan and the Imams are taking all the control to themselves, dissenters, journalists and teachers jailed. Erdogan is well on his way to indoctrinate his future generations and backwards they will go. Still someone will come on and say it is all free will and choice. "The most significant change, bulldozed through parliament amid fistfights and protests in March 2012, expanded the imam-hatip religious schools and introduced Quranic studies and the life of the Prophet Muhammad as courses in public schools, among other changes. The opposition has long decried the Islamization of education, while President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has insisted on raising a “devout generation,” lauding imam-hatip schools, which train Muslim clergy and offer extensive Quranic studies. The number of secondary imam-hatip schools grew to 1,961 at present, while imam-hatip high schools increased to 1,149 in the same period. Meanwhile, the number of students attending them has risen from 932,000 to 1.2 million. Back in 2002, the figure stood at 71,000," Maggie |
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#115 |
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Since when was the fez a "religious symbol"?
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#116 |
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I have a bit of a problem with that though. It's true that some women may wear it out of choice, and even though I still probably wouldn't advocate a ban on it I'd have to question those women's fashion choices due to what the burqa represents.
They may be inadvertently causing harm to those women who don't have a choice by normalizing it. Another crap analogy, it might be a bit like a Jewish person wearing full Nazi regalia at a Bar Mitzvah. You said it! Why do you think it might be inadvertently causing harm? One of the things women who choose to wear the nijab, which is actually the garment being referred to, say is it's liberating which I can understand to some extent. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wom...ol-debate.html |
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#117 |
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Quote:
Since when was the fez a "religious symbol"?
In Turkey though it became a cultural symbol and form of identity and Ataturk was intent on changing this. He knew that a culturally inclined Islamic nation would never be able to compete with the Western secular societies and there was no mechanism that could enforce change internally on Islam. He decided to make change happen through the force of law and unless Islam is willing to change naturally and internally what else is there to be done? He was right and had the strength of conviction to follow through. Erdogan is wrong but also has the strength of conviction to follow through and he will effect change. Maggie |
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#118 |
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Ban physical assaults
Don't ban someone's choice of garments. Simple. |
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#119 |
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I agree the burqa should not be banned. Do you not agree thought women should not be allowed to cover their face in areas where no one else is permitted to cover their faces, such as airports?
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#120 |
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Oh definitely, yes. Should be the same rule as for any other facecovering.
I do wonder though if maybe there should be a ban on children under 18 wearing burqas, as they should be able to make their own choice when older whether to wear one - and the lack of vitamin D in their childhood could be very damaging. |
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#121 |
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Join Date: Oct 2013
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Its not in many parts of the world.
In Turkey though it became a cultural symbol and form of identity and Ataturk was intent on changing this. He knew that a culturally inclined Islamic nation would never be able to compete with the Western secular societies and there was no mechanism that could enforce change internally on Islam. He decided to make change happen through the force of law and unless Islam is willing to change naturally and internally what else is there to be done? He was right and had the strength of conviction to follow through. Erdogan is wrong but also has the strength of conviction to follow through and he will effect change. Maggie As for the burka, what if a woman decide to wear it of her own free will? Are you going to force her not to wear it? If you then consider items of clothing to be oppression then what are you to do about the Sheitel? |
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#122 |
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So it's not a religious symbol.
As for the burka, what if a woman decide to wear it of her own free will? Are you going to force her not to wear it? If you then consider items of clothing to be oppression then what are you to do about the Sheitel? The fact is Germany already prevents the wearing of symbols of a certain ideology. Should they do? How dare they restrict the right to freely express an opinion or ideology? Should society have the right to limit peoples free expression? Should society draw the line at certain ideologies, if so what sort of ideas should be restricted? Rights of women, homosexuals, freedom to be an atheist, freedom to change your mind, restriction and preferable destruction of a racial group, those sort of things would you say? Maggie |
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#123 |
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Whats worse - a religion telling its women how to dress, forum members telling women how to dress, or politicians telling women how to dress?
Hard to tell the difference. |
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#124 |
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More whataboutery.
The fact is Germany already prevents the wearing of symbols of a certain ideology. |
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#125 |
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So the burka is the same as the Swastika?
Maggie |
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