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Angela Merkel calls for ban on burqa in Germany


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Old 07-12-2016, 21:16
Blairdennon
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Whats worse - a religion telling its women how to dress, forum members telling women how to dress, or politicians telling women how to dress?
Hard to tell the difference.
The issue is husbands forcing their women how to dress and how one tackles that.
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Old 07-12-2016, 21:19
Blairdennon
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So the burka is the same as the Swastika?
No but we ban political uniforms and if a group are wearing it as a uniform to denote their support for the religious/political ideology of Islam then it does raise a legal question.
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Old 07-12-2016, 21:31
alan29
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The issue is husbands forcing their women how to dress and how one tackles that.
By getting politicians telling them how to dress instead?
Don't think so.
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Old 07-12-2016, 21:43
Blairdennon
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By getting politicians telling them how to dress instead?
Don't think so.
I know you do not but that is still the issue. We already have politicians telling us to a limited degree what we can and cannot wear. This is no different and all it is doing is ensuring equality amongst British Citizens as they go about their everyday business and normal social intercourse.
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Old 07-12-2016, 21:55
alan29
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I know you do not but that is still the issue. We already have politicians telling us to a limited degree what we can and cannot wear. This is no different and all it is doing is ensuring equality amongst British Citizens as they go about their everyday business and normal social intercourse.
Would you ban nuns from wearing their habits?
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Old 07-12-2016, 21:59
Blairdennon
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Would you ban nuns from wearing their habits?
If there was an indication that the wearing of the habit was enforced against their will then yes. The evidence is that they are not, they can leave the order and many do.
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Old 07-12-2016, 22:00
alan29
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If there was an indication that the wearing of the habit was enforced against their will then yes. The evidence is that they are not, they can leave the order and many do.
Fair point.
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Old 07-12-2016, 22:01
Granny McSmith
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I know you do not but that is still the issue. We already have politicians telling us to a limited degree what we can and cannot wear. This is no different and all it is doing is ensuring equality amongst British Citizens as they go about their everyday business and normal social intercourse.
They have equality.

They can dress as they see fit, even as you can.

You know, there are an awful lot of people who get offended on others' behalf. And it usually involves banning something.
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Old 07-12-2016, 23:53
Alrightmate
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Would you ban nuns from wearing their habits?
You choose to be a nun. No one forces you to become a nun.
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Old 08-12-2016, 02:58
joshua321
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There did seem to be some kind of strange irony in that image of two burly French policeMEN insiting that that woman on the beach in Cannes disrobe before them or leave...
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Old 08-12-2016, 03:28
CappySpectrum
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Whats worse - a religion telling its women how to dress, forum members telling women how to dress, or politicians telling women how to dress?
Hard to tell the difference.
The issue is husbands forcing their women how to dress and how one tackles that.
What about women friends telling other women how to dress? and talk about them behind their backs...
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:06
Blairdennon
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What about women friends telling other women how to dress? and talk about them behind their backs...
There is a difference between peer pressure and male enforcement. Peer pressure may result in overspending on a Gucci handbag through choice, a husband forcing a wife to spend her money on a Gucci handbag is a bit different..
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:14
Blairdennon
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They have equality.

They can dress as they see fit, even as you can.

You know, there are an awful lot of people who get offended on others' behalf. And it usually involves banning something.
However it is not about being offended it is about a man instructing a woman that she must wear a certain garb that covers her face and head. If the evidence is that that happens almost wholly through choice that is fine. However there is much evidence to indicate that male enforcement plays a large part in the wearing of those clothes. Muslim women choosing to wear this garb are effectively perpetuating the oppression of many others. It is a balance and currently the balance favours the dominant male. I would have thought most women would see that.
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Old 08-12-2016, 16:05
Granny McSmith
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However it is not about being offended it is about a man instructing a woman that she must wear a certain garb that covers her face and head. If the evidence is that that happens almost wholly through choice that is fine. However there is much evidence to indicate that male enforcement plays a large part in the wearing of those clothes. Muslim women choosing to wear this garb are effectively perpetuating the oppression of many others. It is a balance and currently the balance favours the dominant male. I would have thought most women would see that.
So these men shouldn't be telling these women what to wear. But it's OK for the state to tell them. Why is that?

Does it occur to you that there is no precedent in law for the state to tell it's citizens what they should or should not wear? So enact a law that would ban the burka and see what a slippery slope you're standing on. What shall we ban next? (Personally I'd ban those awful tights that some women wear with short tops, perhaps not realising that their wobbly wrinkly bottoms are so apparent).

I don't want my country to start banning things just because a few people have a bee in their bonnet about it.
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Old 08-12-2016, 16:27
Maggie 55
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Does it occur to you that there is no precedent in law for the state to tell it's citizens what they should or should not wear? So enact a law that would ban the burka and see what a slippery slope you're standing on. What shall we ban next? .
No it has not occurred to me, because it is bollocks.

Germany already has laws restricting the wearing of clothing which indicates allegiance to an ideology they feel has no place in a modern, equal, democratic society.



Maggie
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Old 08-12-2016, 16:30
Blairdennon
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So these men shouldn't be telling these women what to wear. But it's OK for the state to tell them. Why is that?

Does it occur to you that there is no precedent in law for the state to tell it's citizens what they should or should not wear? So enact a law that would ban the burka and see what a slippery slope you're standing on. What shall we ban next? (Personally I'd ban those awful tights that some women wear with short tops, perhaps not realising that their wobbly wrinkly bottoms are so apparent).

I don't want my country to start banning things just because a few people have a bee in their bonnet about it.
Little bit of a difference the state is saying what cannot be worn, the men are saying what must be worn. There is precedent, anything that looks like a political uniform is banned largely because people have a bee in their bonnet about it.
One could also argue that the full garb is a sort of uniform as in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDbaVoOmeDs


Just over 1 minute in.
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Old 08-12-2016, 16:50
Granny McSmith
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No it has not occurred to me, because it is bollocks.

Germany already has laws restricting the wearing of clothing which indicates allegiance to an ideology they feel has no place in a modern, equal, democratic society.



Maggie
Germany has banned a lot of things in it's time.

I don't give a flying fig what Germany does, or France either. I live here and we don't do things like that.

Little bit of a difference the state is saying what cannot be worn, the men are saying what must be worn. There is precedent, anything that looks like a political uniform is banned largely because people have a bee in their bonnet about it.
One could also argue that the full garb is a sort of uniform as in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDbaVoOmeDs


Just over 1 minute in.
It's not a uniform, though, is it?
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Old 08-12-2016, 17:16
Blairdennon
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Germany has banned a lot of things in it's time.

I don't give a flying fig what Germany does, or France either. I live here and we don't do things like that.



It's not a uniform, though, is it?
Well the principle of a uniform is everyone looks the same. They used the 1936 act to arrest those wearing black berets at a meeting in London as IRA uniform. There is precedent for the smallest of articles of clothing.
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Old 08-12-2016, 17:45
Granny McSmith
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Well the principle of a uniform is everyone looks the same. They used the 1936 act to arrest those wearing black berets at a meeting in London as IRA uniform. There is precedent for the smallest of articles of clothing.
Wasn't the IRA a proscribed organisation? Islam isn't illegal yet, and it's adherents should not be prosecuted merely for wearing clothing which identifies them as such.

Do you really want to live in a country which bans things like non-military articles of clothing? I think, like me, you wanted to distance yourself from countries which went down this route?

I accept that we can't know why women wear these sorts of clothes, and it may very well be intimidation and coercion, by husbands or fathers, but we don't know that unless the women themselves complain of these things. I think you have to be careful what you legislate for - unintended consequences can be worse than the original evil.
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Old 08-12-2016, 18:00
Blairdennon
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Wasn't the IRA a proscribed organisation? Islam isn't illegal yet, and it's adherents should not be prosecuted merely for wearing clothing which identifies them as such.

Do you really want to live in a country which bans things like non-military articles of clothing? I think, like me, you wanted to distance yourself from countries which went down this route?

I accept that we can't know why women wear these sorts of clothes, and it may very well be intimidation and coercion, by husbands or fathers, but we don't know that unless the women themselves complain of these things. I think you have to be careful what you legislate for - unintended consequences can be worse than the original evil.
Islam does not demand the dress we have just been informed above that it is a cultural thing. It is a uniform of political Islam was my point. As I said it is a balance which I wish was not there but it is so we have to deal with it or ignore it. Ignoring it means that it will be perpetuated as a consistent abuse of women and young girls.
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Old 08-12-2016, 18:14
Granny McSmith
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Islam does not demand the dress we have just been informed above that it is a cultural thing. It is a uniform of political Islam was my point. As I said it is a balance which I wish was not there but it is so we have to deal with it or ignore it. Ignoring it means that it will be perpetuated as a consistent abuse of women and young girls.
Well, I hope you are successful in your crusade to stop the abuse of all women and young girls, as no one wants that to continue.
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