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Secularism and why Christianity has alienated people
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Neil_N
06-12-2016
You're probably thinking "not another religion post" with this discussion. I personally think Secularism is the way forward for the UK. Whilst I respect people have a faith and have that choice to believe, you can see why secularism is on the increase.

Christianity has alienated a lot of people in society. It's taken ages for the CoE and various other offshoots to accept female vicars to lead services. Not allowing same-sex marriages and some of the vitriol that has been broadcast in the media and from some Christians in huge opposition towards homosexuality. Adding to that, the hypocrisy of the church of preaching morals, when there are people without homes, without money and in need of help and support. The sad case of the homeless man that froze to death in Birmingham, when there was a street preacher not far from where he was preaching not bothering to help.

Personally I think Christianity will be almost dead religion in the UK in 30-40 years, and I for one would welcome a secular state. I don't see Islam as a threat, as there is only 3-5% of adherents and even that has had it's numbers dwindle. I also think it says it all when other faiths (Sikh, Islam, Hindus, Judaism) seem to be out there delivering their basic principles of helping those out yet Christianity seems to becoming a very closed shop - in fact, I've heard of churches being middle class and full of Conservatives turning away those of working class or on benefits - the polar opposite of what Jesus Christ was!

What do you think?
molliepops
06-12-2016
I think the churches I attend are full to bursting at the weekends. I absolutely think the state should be secular but Christianity isn't dead yet and I doubt it ever will be.
malpasc
06-12-2016
I personally believe that people should be able to hold whatever faiths and beliefs they want but in NO way should they impose them on other people. Religion etc should be kept out of schools and all workplaces.

It certainly has no place in how the country is run, and there should be no religious exceptions when providing services to anyone.
spiney2
06-12-2016
The reason christianity has alienated people in uk is, it's been almost entirely taken over, during the last 40 years, by evangelicals. That's why williams resigned, as archbish of cantab, and why his successor cary thinks the church of england will split up .........
spiney2
06-12-2016
In many countries, christianity is growing, but mostly pentecostalism and similar sects.
darkjedimaster
06-12-2016
Originally Posted by malpasc:
“I personally believe that people should be able to hold whatever faiths and beliefs they want but in NO way should they impose them on other people. Religion etc should be kept out of schools and all workplaces.

It certainly has no place in how the country is run, and there should be no religious exceptions when providing services to anyone.”

This exactly, if people want to learn about religion then there are certain establishments to do so, nut jobs preaching on the street should be outlawed & the door knocking from the people in suits, should also be made illegal.

If some religious nut job quotes me a verse from their chosen fairytale, then I quote them an almighty bollocks in return.
Neil_N
06-12-2016
Originally Posted by darkjedimaster:
“This exactly, if people want to learn about religion then there are certain establishments to do so, nut jobs preaching on the street should be outlawed & the door knocking from the people in suits, should also be made illegal.

If some religious nut job quotes me a verse from their chosen fairytale, then I quote them an almighty bollocks in return.”

Personally, I agree. I think street preaching, especially hate should be an unlimited fine and / or prison. Jehovah's Witness....I'd go far as criminalising them as it's a sect and with all the alleged abuse etc, it'd be one way to put a stop to them, perhaps some sort of de-programming service for members and the ones that are responsible for abuse, a one-off return for the death penalty?

We should be a 100% secular country, do what France does and embrace secularism.
shaddler
06-12-2016
We won't have a secular state as long as the monarch is Defender of the Faith. I think Prince Charles has said he'd like the title Defender of Faith, but that would require the consent of Parliament.
molliepops
06-12-2016
Originally Posted by Neil_N:
“Personally, I agree. I think street preaching, especially hate should be an unlimited fine and / or prison. Jehovah's Witness....I'd go far as criminalising them as it's a sect and with all the alleged abuse etc, it'd be one way to put a stop to them, perhaps some sort of de-programming service for members and the ones that are responsible for abuse, a one-off return for the death penalty?

We should be a 100% secular country, do what France does and embrace secularism.”

I don't think France has done very well with that. A secular society should protect all faiths not persecute them.
droogiefret
06-12-2016
I used to be a staunch secularist. But the water is muddied completely these days by people who equate secularism with atheism. It's very difficult to discuss in a focussed way.
marjangles
06-12-2016
Originally Posted by shaddler:
“We won't have a secular state as long as the monarch is Defender of the Faith. I think Prince Charles has said he'd like the title Defender of Faith, but that would require the consent of Parliament.”

But what about people who don't have faith, why are they excluded?
johnF1971
06-12-2016
Originally Posted by shaddler:
“We won't have a secular state as long as the monarch is Defender of the Faith.”

I thought Take That had been assigned that role?

'We will meet you where the lights are,
The defenders, of the faith we are.'
Arcana
06-12-2016
One of the biggest problems for secularism is that influential opponents conflate it with atheism (itself too often conflated with anti-theism) for the obvious reason that in so doing they can exploit and employ the power of atheophobic bigotry to protect religious privilege.

So, unfortunately, I fear the prospects for secularism are very much linked to greater equality for atheists at least in line with what we've achieved for gay people and ethnic minorities etc.
Richard46
06-12-2016
Originally Posted by droogiefret:
“I used to be a staunch secularist. But the water is muddied completely these days by people who equate secularism with atheism. It's very difficult to discuss in a focussed way.”

I would suggest that a far more significant and harmful muddying had been that which allows almost entirely State funded Schools to be described and managed as Faith Schools.

Or perhaps the muddying created by calling a government consultation document 'Schools that Work for Everyone' when it proposes removing the 50% limit on faith based admissions and allowing 'Faith' schools to select all its pupils on faith criteria.

This consultation therefore proposes that we replace the ‘cap’ for faith free
schools – including for existing schools – with a series of strengthened safeguards to
promote inclusivity, thereby allowing free schools with up to 100% faith-based admissions.


https://consult.education.gov.uk/sch...20%20FINAL.pdf

If this dreadful proposal is accepted we will soon be seeing new schools opening with totally religiously segregated pupil bodies and we will all be paying for this.
DW2
06-12-2016
Originally Posted by Neil_N:
“The sad case of the homeless man that froze to death in Birmingham, when there was a street preacher not far from where he was preaching not bothering to help.”

This is nothing new - in the story of the Good Samaritan a religious leader is one of the people to walk by and ignore the person in need of help. The danger is that we make these things about others. The preacher was almost certainly not the only one to ignore the homeless person - no doubt hundreds of people walked past including many atheists. Maybe most of us would have done the same.
MrQuike
06-12-2016
Christianity hasn't alienated me and I'm neither conservative or christian. I don't really get what the fuss is about.
noodkleopatra
06-12-2016
Should work like this in my opinion: we should have freedom of religion, and freedom from religion.

Why on Earth we should all dance to the tambourine of a religion or God we don't believe in is beyond me. Blasphemy laws really did do a great deal of damage for religion too, but sadly, I wonder if - in the worthwhile pursuit of harmony - we're starting to fall back into adopting it again.

Secularism can be the only way forward. Having a state religion usually goes one of two ways - it dictates everything, and the inevitable clash between freedom, human rights etc. is called into question, or you have it where it's there in name but no-one is arsed by it, even a great many of the apparent adherents (e.g. Church of England). The latter seems harmless enough until you consider the role it still plays in politics, education, etc.

Secularism is as good for religion as it is for non-religion.

The argument can be made about how good laws are introduced or influenced by religion - which is fine - but it conveniently ignores that a great many good laws were made in spite of it, and a great many bad laws were made with its blessing.

Whether laïcité is the way to go or not, well, that's up for debate. But surely, it's got to be a system that applies equally. I'm no fan of religion, but I find it utterly absurd how some would advocate the banning of religious apparel for one faith, but not another. That can't work. As soon as you issue 'preferred faiths', you're acting outside of secularism.

But certainly, religion should abide by society, and not the other way around.
noodkleopatra
06-12-2016
I should also add that I don't think Christianity is solely to blame for the current apathy towards religion. But equally, I don't think it can claim it is 'outside' the scope of blame either. Certainly, nobody's shit can claim to smell better than any other's!
spiney2
06-12-2016
Depends wot u mean by ''christianity''. The sorts of churches i remember from my childhood have entirely vanished, and all been replaced by screaming ranting gibbering nutters.
alan29
06-12-2016
Looking forward to the day that secularist organisations take over the running of the thousands of Food Banks up and down the country.
Any idea when that will be?
RobinOfLoxley
06-12-2016
Religion has been oppressive and abusive for Centuries and more.

Once the People became educated, and Societal Class Barriers dissolved, many said "Sod that for a Game of (Christian) Soldiers"
noodkleopatra
06-12-2016
Originally Posted by alan29:
“Looking forward to the day that secularist organisations take over the running of the thousands of Food Banks up and down the country.
Any idea when that will be?”

Surely a more pertinent question is to when we're going to stop needing food banks in the first place?

What role do you think the Church and its many members could play in that?
worzil
06-12-2016
Originally Posted by RobinOfLoxley:
“Religion has been oppressive and abusive for Centuries and more.

Once the People became educated, and Societal Class Barriers dissolved, many said "Sod that for a Game of (Christian) Soldiers"”

I would suggest as a none believer that the majority of Brits whether they go to church or not still class themselves as Christians.
I realised many years ago that a church is not only bricks and mortar its a belief.
noodkleopatra
06-12-2016
Originally Posted by worzil:
“I would suggest as a none believer that the majority of Brits whether they go to church or not still class themselves as Christians.
I realised many years ago that a church is not only bricks and mortar its a belief.”

Isn't a core belief of Christianity that Jesus is the son of God? As for ethics and morals, a great deal of them are shared by many other cultures and religions, so are wee therefore all members of those?
Chris Frost
06-12-2016
Originally Posted by Neil_N:
“You're probably thinking "not another religion post" with this discussion. I personally think Secularism is the way forward for the UK. Whilst I respect people have a faith and have that choice to believe, you can see why secularism is on the increase.”

You're free to hold any personal views you want. I think I am correct in saying that that's a right you have that's written in to Law. I would question though whe there secularism is the pro-active choice you seem to be suggesting. My view is that successive generations see less and less in religion that speaks to them about their lives and so an increase secularism is the natural byproduct.

Originally Posted by Neil_N:
“Christianity has alienated a lot of people in society.”

Has it? I think there's a lot of people who think of themselves as C-of-E but don't go to church or follow religious affairs so they'really not really bothered about women vicars and bishops etc. Yes, there's a small but vocal group of people angry at the church for keeping women at bay for so long, but whether that's classed as "a lot" out of a UK population approaching 70 million I think is very much up for debate.

Originally Posted by Neil_N:
“Not allowing same-sex marriages and some of the vitriol that has been broadcast in the media and from some Christians in huge opposition towards homosexuality.”

I can see the churches point of view regarding same sex marriahe's. I am pretty sure that the bible is against that; so does the Christian Church stick to its guns or capitulate and become hypocrits for condoning it. As for the vitriol from some or other mouthpiece, yeah, that happens. I don't believe it's in every sermon though, is it?

Originally Posted by Neil_N:
“Personally I think Christianity will be almost dead religion in the UK in 30-40 years, [”

Are we talking Christianity or Protestantism. The two things are not the same.
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