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Secularism and why Christianity has alienated people
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Richard46
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by molliepops:
“And why not ? People use all sorts of thinking to make decisions. A religious person may use their belief and also other things to make decisions.

As a religious person I often find the religious in high places don't represent my thinking at all, right to die etc being one of them. I don't argue they should not speak out though as everyone has a right to speak on these things.

It's important to hear all sides of arguments IMO”

I could not agree more with you molliepops. My only issue is with situations like the House of Lords where one organisation (and one alone) has votes reserved for its placemen (and they are men ) . I would object to any organisation having such privileges.
Edit it is particularly ironical that this one organisation is one that has manged to get itself exempt from some of the laws other organisations have to abide by.
shaddler
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by lordOfTime:
“What about secularism? Should that be imposed on people?

That's what will happen if you force Christians to keep quiet.

I agree that street preaching can be counter productive but we have freedom of religion in this country. Christianity by definition cannot just lie down and wait for new people to join the flock.”

Secularism isn't really something that can be 'imposed on people', nor is the absence of it required for successful proselytising.
zx50
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by molliepops:
“And why not ? People use all sorts of thinking to make decisions. A religious person may use their belief and also other things to make decisions.

As a religious person I often find the religious in high places don't represent my thinking at all, right to die etc being one of them. I don't argue they should not speak out though as everyone has a right to speak on these things.

It's important to hear all sides of arguments IMO”

As long as the rules were strict but fair, I can't see why the right to die shouldn't have been made legal. I'm no expert at all, I just think people who are constantly in pain and others whose quality of life is almost zero who wanted to die should have been granted that right.
Leicester_Hunk
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by malpasc:
“I personally believe that people should be able to hold whatever faiths and beliefs they want but in NO way should they impose them on other people. Religion etc should be kept out of schools and all workplaces.

It certainly has no place in how the country is run, and there should be no religious exceptions when providing services to anyone.”

I agree wholeheartedly with this. It has caused my girlfriend a lot of problems.

She is a Christian, and holds the viewpoint above, but has been made to feel guilty for not evangelising, witnessing or whatever you call it. She has felt most uncomfortable.
shaddler
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by Leicester_Hunk:
“I agree wholeheartedly with this. It has caused my girlfriend a lot of problems.

She is a Christian, and holds the viewpoint above, but has been made to feel guilty for not evangelising, witnessing or whatever you call it. She has felt most uncomfortable.”

What is preventing her doing that in her spare time?
molliepops
07-12-2016
[
Originally Posted by zx50:
“As long as the rules were strict but fair, I can't see why the right to die shouldn't have been made legal. I'm no expert at all, I just think people who are constantly in pain and others whose quality of life is almost zero who wanted to die should have been granted that right.”

I agree but like many things that become law we don't always get what we want, that's democracy and we have to carry on campaigning to persuade others.


Originally Posted by Leicester_Hunk:
“I agree wholeheartedly with this. It has caused my girlfriend a lot of problems.

She is a Christian, and holds the viewpoint above, but has been made to feel guilty for not evangelising, witnessing or whatever you call it. She has felt most uncomfortable.”

That's strange I've not felt any guilt over any of that, I'm what I would call a more practical Christian but that hasn't caused me any problems with those who are more called to evangelising etc.
zx50
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by malpasc:
“I personally believe that people should be able to hold whatever faiths and beliefs they want but in NO way should they impose them on other people. Religion etc should be kept out of schools and all workplaces.

It certainly has no place in how the country is run, and there should be no religious exceptions when providing services to anyone.”

I have no problem with religious items being worn/shown in shops. It doesn't offend me at all.
bollywood
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by shaddler:
“Secularism isn't really something that can be 'imposed on people', nor is the absence of it required for successful proselytising.”

Of course it can be imposed on people, in a draconian way.
molliepops
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“Of course it can be imposed on people, in a draconian way.”

Our country is run in a secular way, I don't find it draconian to accept we don't have a religious government, it's in countries that do we see so many inequalities. A secular country accepts all religions and none are protected and heard.
bollywood
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by molliepops:
“Our country is run in a secular way, I don't find it draconian to accept we don't have a religious government, it's in countries that do we see so many inequalities. A secular country accepts all religions and none are protected and heard.”

It's not a secular state though, is it?

I was pointing out that it can also be imposed as putting religion inferior, or even dangerous. As history shows us.
shaddler
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“Of course it can be imposed on people, in a draconian way.”

I don't see anything draconian in the separation of religion and state. If you are thinking of things like burqa bans then I would point out that there is no religious requirement for Muslim women to wear them.
bollywood
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by shaddler:
“I don't see anything draconian in the separation of religion and state. If you are thinking of things like burqa bans then I would point out that there is no religious requirement for Muslim women to wear them.”

That has nothing to do with the fact that secularism can be and historically has been, imposed harshly.

I live in separation of church and state, but there is also the fear that religion can be seen as wrong, delusional or dangerous by certain groups. It's always a balance to maintain rights
shaddler
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“That has nothing to do with the fact that secularism can be and historically has been, imposed harshly.”

Which examples are you thinking of?
molliepops
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“That has nothing to do with the fact that secularism can be and historically has been, imposed harshly.

I live in separation of church and state, but there is also the fear that religion can be seen as wrong, delusional or dangerous by certain groups. It's always a balance to maintain rights”

Nothing wrong with people thinking like that, no religion or faith is better than another and having no faith is just as valid as having one. That's what living in a secular society allows us to have, freedom to believe or not. If someone thinks my faith is silly that's only their opinion, it can't hurt or even touch me because I have faith and that is mine. I don't try to convert others they can't convert me. We are all allowed our own faiths and opinions.
bollywood
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by molliepops:
“Nothing wrong with people thinking like that, no religion or faith is better than another and having no faith is just as valid as having one. That's what living in a secular society allows us to have, freedom to believe or not. If someone thinks my faith is silly that's only their opinion, it can't hurt or even touch me because I have faith and that is mine. I don't try to convert others they can't convert me. We are all allowed our own faiths and opinions.”

In the right kind of secular society, yes. I was responding to shaddler saying it can't be imposed. Of course it can. There are secular societies in which priests have been killed, just for being priests.

Nothing to do with conversion. I don't think people should be trying to convert others.
dee123
07-12-2016
We as a people have grown up and woken up. I'm mean the bible says we aren't supposed to be:

eating pigs, rabbits or any shellfish
wear mixed fabrics
have tattoos
owning mixed breed animals
working on Sundays

I could go on.
bollywood
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by shaddler:
“Which examples are you thinking of?”

The 1920's in Mexico when priests were persecuted, to think of one.

Other examples when labor, and not religion, philosophy or education was valued, leading to persecution.
Welsh-lad
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by Neil_N:
“You're probably thinking "not another religion post" with this discussion. I personally think Secularism is the way forward for the UK. Whilst I respect people have a faith and have that choice to believe, you can see why secularism is on the increase.

Christianity has alienated a lot of people in society. It's taken ages for the CoE and various other offshoots to accept female vicars to lead services. Not allowing same-sex marriages and some of the vitriol that has been broadcast in the media and from some Christians in huge opposition towards homosexuality. Adding to that, the hypocrisy of the church of preaching morals, when there are people without homes, without money and in need of help and support. The sad case of the homeless man that froze to death in Birmingham, when there was a street preacher not far from where he was preaching not bothering to help.

Personally I think Christianity will be almost dead religion in the UK in 30-40 years, and I for one would welcome a secular state. I don't see Islam as a threat, as there is only 3-5% of adherents and even that has had it's numbers dwindle. I also think it says it all when other faiths (Sikh, Islam, Hindus, Judaism) seem to be out there delivering their basic principles of helping those out yet Christianity seems to becoming a very closed shop - in fact, I've heard of churches being middle class and full of Conservatives turning away those of working class or on benefits - the polar opposite of what Jesus Christ was!

What do you think?”

I don't think the decline has anything really to do with the church's conservative approach to many issues eg the gender of priests, gay priests etc.

Fundamentally, most people have become richer and better educated, and in that context religion becomes exposed for the hokum it is.

OK there are some very successful churches, usually evangelical, catering for the minority of people who have the psychological need for a spiritual prop, to feel special, to feel 'saved' or whatever, but that's not mainstream.

Religion only really thrives when the population is impoverished, non-educated, and in need of hope.
bollywood
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by dee123:
“We as a people have grown up and woken up. I'm mean the bible says we aren't supposed to be:

eating pigs, rabbits or any shellfish
wear mixed fabrics
have tattoos
owning mixed breed animals
working on Sundays

I could go on.”

You aren't forced to do that, are you? Aren't rituals voluntary?
bollywood
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by Welsh-lad:
“I don't think the decline has anything really to do with the church's conservative approach to many issues eg the gender of priests, gay priests etc.

Fundamentally, most people have become richer and better educated, and in that context religion becomes exposed for the hokum it is.

OK there are some very successful churches, usually evangelical, catering for the minority of people who have the psychological need for a spiritual prop, to feel special, to feel 'saved' or whatever, but that's not mainstream.

Religion only really thrives when the population is impoverished, non-educated, and in need of hope.”

You're assuming that people go to church to feel special?
Richard46
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“The 1920's in Mexico when priests were persecuted, to think of one.

Other examples when labor, and not religion, philosophy or education was valued, leading to persecution.”

A history that could be used to provide very good reasons for having secular states. In brief the origins of this conflict can be traced back to the founding of Mexico and its original constitution which forbade any religion but Roman Catholicism.
The RC Church in Mexico was a political player. Atheist where assassinated by Christian forces as well.
bollywood
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by Richard46:
“A history that could be used to provide very good reasons for having secular states. In brief the origins of this conflict can be traced back to the founding of Mexico and its original constitution which forbade any religion but Roman Catholicism.
The RC Church in Mexico was a political player. Atheist where assassinated by Christian forces as well.”

And then clearly shows that when secularism had its day, it was no panacea. Quite the opposite.
Richard46
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“And then clearly shows that when secularism had its day, it was no panacea. Quite the opposite.”

If you want to draw a simplistic conclusion from one enormously complex struggle then so be it.
bluesdiamond
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by dee123:
“We as a people have grown up and woken up. I'm mean the bible says we aren't supposed to be:

eating pigs, rabbits or any shelblfish
wear mixed fabrics
have tattoos
owning mixed breed animals
working on Sundays

I could go on.”


Working Sunday?
If you mean the Sabbath, it is Saturday.
Richard46
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“You aren't forced to do that, are you? Aren't rituals voluntary?”

In the UK no they are not entirely voluntary. Perhaps they are in the US with its long tradition of legally separating Church and State. Long may that endure.

Surely bolly the US, where you live, is a secular state yet it is probably among the most religious countries in the Western world where a vast range of religions flourish. Never mind 1920 Mexico surely your own country today* is a prime example of how secularism does not lead to religious persecution?

*As are many other western secular states where religions are free and flourishing.
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