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Secularism and why Christianity has alienated people |
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#76 |
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In the UK no they are not entirely voluntary. Perhaps they are in the US with its long tradition of legally separating Church and State. Long may that endure.
Surely bolly the US, where you live, is a secular state yet it is probably among the most religious countries in the Western world where a vast range of religions flourish. Never mind 1920 Mexico surely your own country today* is a prime example of how secularism does not lead to religious persecution? *As are many other western secular states where religions are free and flourishing. Yes I agree with separation of church and state. I was questioning that secularism can't be imposed. It can, and in the U.S. we not only have issues with religious fundamentalists but also atheist fundamentalists. |
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#77 |
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Keeping a kosher house isn't voluntary? I was referring to dee's list.
Yes I agree with separation of church and state. I was questioning that secularism can't be imposed. It can, and in the U.S. we not only have issues with religious fundamentalists but also atheist fundamentalists. |
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#78 |
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Keeping a kosher house isn't voluntary? I was referring to dee's list.
Yes I agree with separation of church and state. I was questioning that secularism can't be imposed. It can, and in the U.S. we not only have issues with religious fundamentalists but also atheist fundamentalists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism Certainly in a political context that is all it means. Many religious people describe themselves as secularists. Indeed by that common definition you are a secularist. Imposing secularism then makes little sense as not 'imposing' it would involve imposing religion on a state. I think you may be thinking of imposing atheism (not secularism) which I and I think most none believers would reject as utterly as you do. I hope that makes some sense to you?
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#79 |
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You're assuming that people go to church to feel special?
My gran used to go for the company, it was an outing for her on the weekend and she loved to sing. Fundamentalists though do go to church to fulfil some kind of psychological need, I've no doubt about that. If you ever do go to an evangelical church service and listen to all the unremitting blame and guilt about how dirty and sinful everyone is, but that Jesus can 'save' these people through grace, and that they are now special, elected, saved, while everyone else who doesn't believe is going to hell in a handcart, then it's pretty obvious. That need to feel special, 'saved' and superior to others, though dressed up in a veil of faux humility, is a bit strange. Any kind of fundamentalism like that is a form of mental illness imo. |
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#80 |
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There's a whole bunch of reasons why people go to church.
My gran used to go for the company, it was an outing for her on the weekend and she loved to sing. Fundamentalists though do go to church to fulfil some kind of psychological need, I've no doubt about that. If you ever do go to an evangelical church service and listen to all the unremitting blame and guilt about how dirty and sinful everyone is, but that Jesus can 'save' these people through grace, and that they are now special, elected, saved, while everyone else who doesn't believe is going to hell in a handcart, then it's pretty obvious. That need to feel special, 'saved' and superior to others, though dressed up in a veil of faux humility, is a bit strange. Any kind of fundamentalism like that is a form of mental illness imo. |
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#81 |
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According to most definitions that is the substantial characteristic of secularism. e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism Certainly in a political context that is all it means. Many religious people describe themselves as secularists. Indeed by that common definition you are a secularist. Imposing secularism then makes little sense as not 'imposing' it would involve imposing religion on a state. I think you may be thinking of imposing atheism (not secularism) which I and I think most none believers would reject as utterly as you do. I hope that makes some sense to you? ![]() It's not about lack of belief in God so much as devaluing the metaphysical. |
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#82 |
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What issues have you had with them?
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#83 |
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Bickering over the smallest things like a prayer breakfast or a misplaced cross. Running to due the school board if God slips in somewhere.
Although of course, given that the US prizes its freedom of religion and secularism so highly, one would think that actually, in the name of that such things should be reported. Or do you think exceptions should be made for the Christian God in the US? |
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#84 |
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Bickering over the smallest things like a prayer breakfast or a misplaced cross. Running to due the school board if God slips in somewhere.
![]() That's terrible, how do you cope? Not exactly on the same level of religious fundamentalists is it? |
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#85 |
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I'm not sure how you manage to generalize about worshippers in that way. You don't have to be a fundamentalist to see that some go because of problem they had and want to change. Not sure how you can guage faux humility of thousands of people.
I even explained my grandmother's perfectly innocuous reasons for attending a church. I suppose my wider point is that some people need to believe in a fictitious being in order to tackle the problems they have, and that can't be entirely healthy. Sorting out problems requires one to engage with reality. |
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#86 |
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Not all are fundamentalists, and I said as much.
I even explained my grandmother's perfectly innocuous reasons for attending a church. I suppose my wider point is that some people need to believe in a fictitious being in order to tackle the problems they have, and that can't be entirely healthy. Sorting out problems requires one to engage with reality. |
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#87 |
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Bickering!!!
![]() That's terrible, how do you cope? Not exactly on the same level of religious fundamentalists is it? Not to mention, being currently, a colossal waste of time and resources better spent. |
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#88 |
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It has the potential to impose, cross personal boundaries and persecute others.As history shows us.
Not to mention, being currently, a colossal waste of time and resources better spent. As for your second paragraph, I take it you're referring to faith/religion.
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#89 |
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You can say that anyone has the potential to do anything, doesn't mean they will. Not interested in your dodgy examples from history but religious fundamentalists are currently considerably more dangerous than atheist fundamentalists. Much rather be bickered at than blown up.
As for your second paragraph, I take it you're referring to faith/religion. ![]() |
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#90 |
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Historically has the potential and historically killed more people.
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#91 |
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What people seem to be calling ''christianity'', is in fact evangelical christianity. A literalist fundamentalist sect which started in the usa, early 19th century, but has now spread in the uk too, and taken over most churches. It's also spread widely in s. america. This is what's behind the impending ''split'' in the worldwide anglican church ..........
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#92 |
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You don't know the being is fictitious. That's just your assumption. It's all assumption based on people you don't know and haven't interviewed.
My opinions or 'assumptions' as you put it are based upon personal experience of being involved with churches and christians all my life, and as such are as valid as yours or anyone else's. I haven't seen you put forward a case for blind faith or fundamentalism, so lets have it, instead of bickering about whether I can express my thoughts on the issue. |
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#93 |
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By all empirical and logical processes he/she/it is fictitious, unless one goes on blind faith, which is a pretty daft MO, in my opinion.
My opinions or 'assumptions' as you put it are based upon personal experience of being involved with churches and christians all my life, and as such are as valid as yours or anyone else's. I haven't seen you put forward a case for blind faith or fundamentalism, so lets have it, instead of bickering about whether I can express my thoughts on the issue. I'm not putting forward a case for fundamentalism or blind faith. Probably why you haven't seen it. My only remark was your stereotyping. |
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#94 |
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As I said, I'm not interested in your examples from history to account for 'killed more people' as they will no doubt have nothing to do with atheism (fundamental or not).
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#95 |
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Not all are fundamentalists, and I said as much.
I even explained my grandmother's perfectly innocuous reasons for attending a church. I suppose my wider point is that some people need to believe in a fictitious being in order to tackle the problems they have, and that can't be entirely healthy. Sorting out problems requires one to engage with reality. |
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#96 |
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Well if we don't learn from history we'll repeat it.
The "numbers game" - I mean, it's utterly ridiculous, for incredibly obvious reasons. Especially considering if the numbers were switched from "kill score" to something like, for example, "total number of years", religion would come off a lot worse. But that's why "number games" are stupid. And why people who use them look stupid. |
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#97 |
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What people seem to be calling ''christianity'', is in fact evangelical christianity. A literalist fundamentalist sect which started in the usa, early 19th century, but has now spread in the uk too, and taken over most churches. It's also spread widely in s. america. This is what's behind the impending ''split'' in the worldwide anglican church ..........
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#98 |
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Indeed and what some are calling secular seems more like atheism to me.
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#99 |
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I know the difference, but it's one thing to have secularism in a basically religious society and another when it's used to stifle religion or devalue it.
Also, "basically religious society" - depends on the society. |
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#100 |
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I wouldn't vote for an atheist who says religion is a virus,no.
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