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Secularism and why Christianity has alienated people
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bollywood
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by Richard46:
“In the UK no they are not entirely voluntary. Perhaps they are in the US with its long tradition of legally separating Church and State. Long may that endure.

Surely bolly the US, where you live, is a secular state yet it is probably among the most religious countries in the Western world where a vast range of religions flourish. Never mind 1920 Mexico surely your own country today* is a prime example of how secularism does not lead to religious persecution?

*As are many other western secular states where religions are free and flourishing.”

Keeping a kosher house isn't voluntary? I was referring to dee's list.

Yes I agree with separation of church and state. I was questioning that secularism can't be imposed. It can, and in the U.S. we not only have issues with religious fundamentalists but also atheist fundamentalists.
JurassicMark
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“Keeping a kosher house isn't voluntary? I was referring to dee's list.

Yes I agree with separation of church and state. I was questioning that secularism can't be imposed. It can, and in the U.S. we not only have issues with religious fundamentalists but also atheist fundamentalists.”

What issues have you had with them?
Richard46
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“Keeping a kosher house isn't voluntary? I was referring to dee's list.

Yes I agree with separation of church and state. I was questioning that secularism can't be imposed. It can, and in the U.S. we not only have issues with religious fundamentalists but also atheist fundamentalists.”

According to most definitions that is the substantial characteristic of secularism. e.g.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism

Certainly in a political context that is all it means.

Many religious people describe themselves as secularists. Indeed by that common definition you are a secularist. Imposing secularism then makes little sense as not 'imposing' it would involve imposing religion on a state.

I think you may be thinking of imposing atheism (not secularism) which I and I think most none believers would reject as utterly as you do. I hope that makes some sense to you?
Welsh-lad
07-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“You're assuming that people go to church to feel special?”

There's a whole bunch of reasons why people go to church.
My gran used to go for the company, it was an outing for her on the weekend and she loved to sing.

Fundamentalists though do go to church to fulfil some kind of psychological need, I've no doubt about that. If you ever do go to an evangelical church service and listen to all the unremitting blame and guilt about how dirty and sinful everyone is, but that Jesus can 'save' these people through grace, and that they are now special, elected, saved, while everyone else who doesn't believe is going to hell in a handcart, then it's pretty obvious.
That need to feel special, 'saved' and superior to others, though dressed up in a veil of faux humility, is a bit strange. Any kind of fundamentalism like that is a form of mental illness imo.
bollywood
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by Welsh-lad:
“There's a whole bunch of reasons why people go to church.
My gran used to go for the company, it was an outing for her on the weekend and she loved to sing.

Fundamentalists though do go to church to fulfil some kind of psychological need, I've no doubt about that. If you ever do go to an evangelical church service and listen to all the unremitting blame and guilt about how dirty and sinful everyone is, but that Jesus can 'save' these people through grace, and that they are now special, elected, saved, while everyone else who doesn't believe is going to hell in a handcart, then it's pretty obvious.
That need to feel special, 'saved' and superior to others, though dressed up in a veil of faux humility, is a bit strange. Any kind of fundamentalism like that is a form of mental illness imo.”

I'm not sure how you manage to generalize about worshippers in that way. You don't have to be a fundamentalist to see that some go because of problem they had and want to change. Not sure how you can guage faux humility of thousands of people.
bollywood
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by Richard46:
“According to most definitions that is the substantial characteristic of secularism. e.g.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism

Certainly in a political context that is all it means.

Many religious people describe themselves as secularists. Indeed by that common definition you are a secularist. Imposing secularism then makes little sense as not 'imposing' it would involve imposing religion on a state.

I think you may be thinking of imposing atheism (not secularism) which I and I think most none believers would reject as utterly as you do. I hope that makes some sense to you? ”

Mexico was persecuting priests in the name of secularism, not atheism.

It's not about lack of belief in God so much as devaluing the metaphysical.
bollywood
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by JurassicMark:
“What issues have you had with them?”

Bickering over the smallest things like a prayer breakfast or a misplaced cross. Running to due the school board if God slips in somewhere.
noodkleopatra
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“Bickering over the smallest things like a prayer breakfast or a misplaced cross. Running to due the school board if God slips in somewhere.”

Wow, seismic. I bet that brought whole communities to a shocked stand-still. Newspaper front-pages chocked with these most menacing of inconveniences.

Although of course, given that the US prizes its freedom of religion and secularism so highly, one would think that actually, in the name of that such things should be reported. Or do you think exceptions should be made for the Christian God in the US?
JurassicMark
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“Bickering over the smallest things like a prayer breakfast or a misplaced cross. Running to due the school board if God slips in somewhere.”

Bickering!!!

That's terrible, how do you cope?

Not exactly on the same level of religious fundamentalists is it?
Welsh-lad
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“I'm not sure how you manage to generalize about worshippers in that way. You don't have to be a fundamentalist to see that some go because of problem they had and want to change. Not sure how you can guage faux humility of thousands of people.”

Not all are fundamentalists, and I said as much.
I even explained my grandmother's perfectly innocuous reasons for attending a church.

I suppose my wider point is that some people need to believe in a fictitious being in order to tackle the problems they have, and that can't be entirely healthy.
Sorting out problems requires one to engage with reality.
bollywood
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by Welsh-lad:
“Not all are fundamentalists, and I said as much.
I even explained my grandmother's perfectly innocuous reasons for attending a church.

I suppose my wider point is that some people need to believe in a fictitious being in order to tackle the problems they have, and that can't be entirely healthy.
Sorting out problems requires one to engage with reality.”

You don't know the being is fictitious. That's just your assumption. It's all assumption based on people you don't know and haven't interviewed.
bollywood
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by JurassicMark:
“Bickering!!!

That's terrible, how do you cope?

Not exactly on the same level of religious fundamentalists is it?”

It has the potential to impose, cross personal boundaries and persecute others.As history shows us.

Not to mention, being currently, a colossal waste of time and resources better spent.
JurassicMark
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“It has the potential to impose, cross personal boundaries and persecute others.As history shows us.

Not to mention, being currently, a colossal waste of time and resources better spent.”

You can say that anyone has the potential to do anything, doesn't mean they will. Not interested in your dodgy examples from history but religious fundamentalists are currently considerably more dangerous than atheist fundamentalists. Much rather be bickered at than blown up.

As for your second paragraph, I take it you're referring to faith/religion.
bollywood
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by JurassicMark:
“You can say that anyone has the potential to do anything, doesn't mean they will. Not interested in your dodgy examples from history but religious fundamentalists are currently considerably more dangerous than atheist fundamentalists. Much rather be bickered at than blown up.

As for your second paragraph, I take it you're referring to faith/religion. ”

Historically has the potential and historically killed more people.
JurassicMark
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“Historically has the potential and historically killed more people.”

As I said, I'm not interested in your examples from history to account for 'killed more people' as they will no doubt have nothing to do with atheism (fundamental or not).
spiney2
08-12-2016
What people seem to be calling ''christianity'', is in fact evangelical christianity. A literalist fundamentalist sect which started in the usa, early 19th century, but has now spread in the uk too, and taken over most churches. It's also spread widely in s. america. This is what's behind the impending ''split'' in the worldwide anglican church ..........
Welsh-lad
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“You don't know the being is fictitious. That's just your assumption. It's all assumption based on people you don't know and haven't interviewed.”

By all empirical and logical processes he/she/it is fictitious, unless one goes on blind faith, which is a pretty daft MO, in my opinion.

My opinions or 'assumptions' as you put it are based upon personal experience of being involved with churches and christians all my life, and as such are as valid as yours or anyone else's.
I haven't seen you put forward a case for blind faith or fundamentalism, so lets have it, instead of bickering about whether I can express my thoughts on the issue.
bollywood
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by Welsh-lad:
“By all empirical and logical processes he/she/it is fictitious, unless one goes on blind faith, which is a pretty daft MO, in my opinion.

My opinions or 'assumptions' as you put it are based upon personal experience of being involved with churches and christians all my life, and as such are as valid as yours or anyone else's.
I haven't seen you put forward a case for blind faith or fundamentalism, so lets have it, instead of bickering about whether I can express my thoughts on the issue.”

Fictitious means not real or not true, and hopefully you wouldn't malign others' personal experiences that way. Just as no good doctor would call symptoms fictitious.

I'm not putting forward a case for fundamentalism or blind faith. Probably why you haven't seen it. My only remark was your stereotyping.
bollywood
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by JurassicMark:
“As I said, I'm not interested in your examples from history to account for 'killed more people' as they will no doubt have nothing to do with atheism (fundamental or not).”

Well if we don't learn from history we'll repeat it.
alan29
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by Welsh-lad:
“Not all are fundamentalists, and I said as much.
I even explained my grandmother's perfectly innocuous reasons for attending a church.

I suppose my wider point is that some people need to believe in a fictitious being in order to tackle the problems they have, and that can't be entirely healthy.
Sorting out problems requires one to engage with reality
.”

Do you usually patronise people who have a different world view from you?
noodkleopatra
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“Well if we don't learn from history we'll repeat it.”

So we certainly shouldn't have an Atheist regime, nor a religious one.

The "numbers game" - I mean, it's utterly ridiculous, for incredibly obvious reasons. Especially considering if the numbers were switched from "kill score" to something like, for example, "total number of years", religion would come off a lot worse.

But that's why "number games" are stupid.

And why people who use them look stupid.
molliepops
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by spiney2:
“What people seem to be calling ''christianity'', is in fact evangelical christianity. A literalist fundamentalist sect which started in the usa, early 19th century, but has now spread in the uk too, and taken over most churches. It's also spread widely in s. america. This is what's behind the impending ''split'' in the worldwide anglican church ..........”

Indeed and what some are calling secular seems more like atheism to me.
bollywood
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by molliepops:
“Indeed and what some are calling secular seems more like atheism to me.”

I know the difference, but it's one thing to have secularism in a basically religious society and another when it's used to stifle religion or devalue it.
noodkleopatra
08-12-2016
Originally Posted by bollywood:
“I know the difference, but it's one thing to have secularism in a basically religious society and another when it's used to stifle religion or devalue it.”

Says the person who wouldn't vote for an Atheist.

Also, "basically religious society" - depends on the society.
bollywood
08-12-2016
I wouldn't vote for an atheist who says religion is a virus,no.
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