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For the Remoaners claiming we didn't vote to leave the single market....


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Old 06-12-2016, 23:57
andykn
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What do you mean lying? I really don't appreciate being called a liar?

Do you not remember the £4300 claim.

How can you be 100 per cent certain that all the 48 per cent voted remain to keep freedom of movement rather than to get the £4300. Cos apparently we all just voted leave due go the £350m a week for the NHS?
The reason I know you're lying is that I remember the 4300 claim. And it's not what you said it was. It was that if we left AND had a trade deal like Canada households could be 4,300 worse off by 2030.

He wasn't promising you a foot by saying if you shot your foot off you'd be a foot worse off.

Anyway they could have voted to stay in for many reasons but there's no doubt at all that they were voting to keep Freedom of Movement.
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Old 06-12-2016, 23:58
andykn
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You seem very fond of calling out people for lying when they haven't.
Yeah, right.
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Old 07-12-2016, 00:12
Jayceef1
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And how were we heading for relegation in the EU? And if we can't cope in the European Championship how would we do better in the World Cup?
Apart from Japan, Brazil and South Africa every other nation in the advanced or emerging economies is expected to do better in ecnomic growth than the EU in 2017 and 2018. So its quite easy to think we would be better in the World Cup instead of the Euros.

Your anaolgy of cups is poor as they are one off competitions. Leagues are a better one for showing progress and consistency.
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Old 07-12-2016, 00:38
andykn
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Apart from Japan, Brazil and South Africa every other nation in the advanced or emerging economies is expected to do better in ecnomic growth than the EU in 2017 and 2018. So its quite easy to think we would be better in the World Cup instead of the Euros.

Your anaolgy of cups is poor as they are one off competitions. Leagues are a better one for showing progress and consistency.
And half the EU countries too.
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Old 07-12-2016, 00:44
FusionFury
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Remoaners don't deal with fachts well
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Old 07-12-2016, 02:08
Jayceef1
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And half the EU countries too.
That's a pathetic response. Obviously some will be above the average and some will be below (including Germany & France). Otherwise it wouldn't be an average. Maths not your strong point?

If the EU average growth for the next two years is 1.6 and 1.5 and the other countries except the ones I mentioned are between 1 and 6 percentage points higher it is logical to trade with these than the stagnating countries of the EU.

I used to work for a major multinational. They did a strategic review of their global market and the conclusion was to exit Europe as the market was saturated with little scope for growth and concentrate their efforts on the emerging and growth markets of South America, Africa, Asia and Australasia. That told me enough to know that the EU would decline if they focused on the internal single market rather than being more outward looking.
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Old 07-12-2016, 02:23
thenetworkbabe
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Having access to the single market is not the same as being in the EU single market. How many more times do you have to be told?
Thats the sort of mistake Leave voters made by not listening to what Boris and Gove said, let alone analysing it.

Both clearly said free access to the single market - either directly, or because we woudl still be in the EEA. .

Of course you can trade with Europe, without free access - you just won't sell much if you have to pay tariffs to sell anything there. . Its a point, but one that misses the key requirement.
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Old 07-12-2016, 02:30
thenetworkbabe
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They mention having tariff free access to the European market not the single market. Not the same thing. Suggest you listen to what you post.
Have no idea what the Indian singer has to do with it though.

Cameron told the truth. We believed him and voted accordingly.
Boris talks about free access to the single narket. Gove tells the voters they will still be in the EEA. Both were untrue.

How could you have free access to the European market and not the Single market countries - nearly all of Europe is in it?
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Old 07-12-2016, 02:30
Welsh-lad
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Having access to the single market is not the same as being in the EU single market. How many more times do you have to be told?
Clever little dodger aren't you. Of course we have access to the SM, the whole world does, but what is under consideration here is our free access to the SM.
You know this - you're just dissembling because you cannot make an argument.
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Old 07-12-2016, 02:33
Welsh-lad
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Remoaners don't deal with fachts well
Lol. What happened to all that sham bullshit earlier about "Come on let's all work together m'kay"
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Old 07-12-2016, 02:42
thenetworkbabe
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That's a pathetic response. Obviously some will be above the average and some will be below (including Germany & France). Otherwise it wouldn't be an average. Maths not your strong point?

If the EU average growth for the next two years is 1.6 and 1.5 and the other countries except the ones I mentioned are between 1 and 6 percentage points higher it is logical to trade with these than the stagnating countries of the EU.

I used to work for a major multinational. They did a strategic review of their global market and the conclusion was to exit Europe as the market was saturated with little scope for growth and concentrate their efforts on the emerging and growth markets of South America, Africa, Asia and Australasia. That told me enough to know that the EU would decline if they focused on the internal single market rather than being more outward looking.
Except there's no reason to think we will trade more outside the EU than now , or companies will even survive long enough - while they wait for post 2019 trade deals to be worked up. We entered the EU because our global trading strategy had failed miserably - nothing has improved much since.

And all those countries you mention are precisely the ones that we are protected from now by the EU, plus the ones where things are too chaotic to conduct fair trade. A trade deal will mean their imports coming here . As their Labour costs are much lower , guess who is going to lose jobs? And hopes for the US seem unrealistic . Trump is a protectionist - who is demanding more favourable trade deals for the US . if we get anything, its going to be by taking what he wants us to take, and adopting what standards he wants us to, Its a new meaning of taking control - just not us doing it.
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Old 07-12-2016, 03:04
Resonance
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Except there's no reason to think we will trade more outside the EU than now , or companies will even survive long enough - while they wait for post 2019 trade deals to be worked up. We entered the EU because our global trading strategy had failed miserably - nothing has improved much since.

And all those countries you mention are precisely the ones that we are protected from now by the EU, plus the ones where things are too chaotic to conduct fair trade. A trade deal will mean their imports coming here . As their Labour costs are much lower , guess who is going to lose jobs? And hopes for the US seem unrealistic . Trump is a protectionist - who is demanding more favourable trade deals for the US . if we get anything, its going to be by taking what he wants us to take, and adopting what standards he wants us to, Its a new meaning of taking control - just not us doing it.
I thought remainers (on here at least) were bemoaning costs going up due to the weaker pound. Everything from crisps to iPhones. Surely then they should be celebrating the lower priced products they'll be able to buy again? Or maybe the pound dropping in value was a good thing after all?
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Old 07-12-2016, 03:21
alfamale
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If the referendum question specifically stated the Brexit option meant leaving the single market then Brexit would have lost the referendum. And would have almost certainly strongly objected to these words ever appearing on the ballot in the lead up because they knew that specific phrase would have meant certain defeat.
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Old 07-12-2016, 03:55
Resonance
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If the referendum question specifically stated the Brexit option meant leaving the single market then Brexit would have lost the referendum. And would have almost certainly strongly objected to these words ever appearing on the ballot in the lead up because they knew that specific phrase would have meant certain defeat.
Not sure about that. Every man and his dog from both sides was telling us that's exactly what Brexit meant.
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Old 07-12-2016, 05:37
IWasBored
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David Cameron contradicted himself. Besides, a hard Brexit would be fascist direct democracy not true representative democracy which this country is. The vote was close. I would like to j
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Old 07-12-2016, 06:01
IWasBored
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Not sure about that. Every man and his dog from both sides was telling us that's exactly what Brexit meant.
Dogs are not allowed to vote
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Old 07-12-2016, 06:05
bluewomble88
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Clever little dodger aren't you. Of course we have access to the SM, the whole world does, but what is under consideration here is our free access to the SM.
You know this - you're just dissembling because you cannot make an argument.
You're more naive that I thought if you think we have free access now. There's a small matter of the millions we pay every week just to be a member of the EU.

That's like saying "get a free pen worth 9.99 when you buy this colouring in book for £10". Nothing comes for free.
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Old 07-12-2016, 06:06
bluewomble88
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Dogs are not allowed to vote
Are you deliberately being silly or...

David Cameron contradicted himself. Besides, a hard Brexit would be fascist direct democracy not true representative democracy which this country is. The vote was close. I would like to j
...maybe unable to form coherent arguments.
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Old 07-12-2016, 06:34
Resonance
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You're more naive that I thought if you think we have free access now. There's a small matter of the millions we pay every week just to be a member of the EU.

That's like saying "get a free pen worth 9.99 when you buy this colouring in book for £10". Nothing comes for free.
Correct. Our so called free access is equivalent to some pretty big tariffs.
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Old 07-12-2016, 08:39
allaorta
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Thats the sort of mistake Leave voters made by not listening to what Boris and Gove said, let alone analysing it.

Both clearly said free access to the single market - either directly, or because we woudl still be in the EEA. .

Of course you can trade with Europe, without free access - you just won't sell much if you have to pay tariffs to sell anything there. . Its a point, but one that misses the key requirement.
Boris and Gove weren't the only ones who said it and I didn't and don't listen to most of what they say. They were indeed on the leave side but it wasn't just that side who said we wouldn't remain in the single market.

Access to the free market is different to being in the free market and there's no particular reason, other than either bloody-mindedness or lack of commonsense that says we can't have a tariff-free deal; if we can't get that, we may as well go for WTO rules.

The current, needless, situation shouldn't have arisen, indeed couldn't, had we not signed up to the level of immersion in treaties and agreements but politicians make the beds that the people then have to lie on. The biggest crime of all the current nonsense is that it is preventing industry, commerce and people from making decisions about their future.
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Old 07-12-2016, 08:52
allaorta
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Clever little dodger aren't you. Of course we have access to the SM, the whole world does, but what is under consideration here is our free access to the SM.
You know this - you're just dissembling because you cannot make an argument.
I do know that and any sensible view would be that access to the single market is the same as membership without the the imposition of EU rules that accompany it. Remember the majority vote was to leave the EU, something that neither meant nor implied we should accept its rules.

There isn't an argument, we voted to leave the EU. Pity you and many others either don't know what that means or choose to divert on the grounds that the referendum question didn't contain thousands of clauses covering every conceivable potential objection that the Remnants could find.
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Old 07-12-2016, 08:57
allaorta
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You're more naive that I thought if you think we have free access now. There's a small matter of the millions we pay every week just to be a member of the EU.

That's like saying "get a free pen worth 9.99 when you buy this colouring in book for £10". Nothing comes for free.
Correct. Our so called free access is equivalent to some pretty big tariffs.
And don't forget the percentage of VAT that goes to the EU, which, on our current performance, is rising.
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:17
jjwales
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Which is 5% less than your own.

Cameron says we'll leave the single market if we vote Brexit.
Britain votes for Brexit.
Remoaners claim we didn't vote to leave the single market.

Mmm'kay.
I'm not a Remoaner, but I'm pretty sure that the only thing on the ballot paper was leaving the EU. Nothing about leaving the single market, and no reason why we should pay any attention to what Cameron said.
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:22
Jayceef1
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Boris talks about free access to the single narket. Gove tells the voters they will still be in the EEA. Both were untrue.

How could you have free access to the European market and not the Single market countries - nearly all of Europe is in it?
There are 22 countries outside the EU. Hardly nearly all
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:25
Gordon g
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It was no secret. Many remain supporters were very vocal about this.
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