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For the Remoaners claiming we didn't vote to leave the single market....


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Old 07-12-2016, 10:34
Irritable Owl
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Remainers seem to think we can honour the referendum result yet still opt to remain members of the single market.
I have to tell them that this prospect seems highly unlikely given the stance of the EU that single market membership = 4 freedoms being retained.
Whatever you think people voted for, a majorty vote to leave the EU surely means that those voting have demanded an end to 1, 2, 3 or all 4 of those freedoms. Without all 4 being honoured, we are out of the SM. Haven't they said that we can't cherry-pick?
The only chance of being in the SM is if the EU do a U-turn and give us our cake (cherry cake, anybody?).

So tell me, remainers, how the referendum result can be honoured AND we stay in the SM??
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:38
Glawster2002
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Remoaners don't deal with fachts well
I would have said the opposite is true...
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:48
Jayceef1
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Except there's no reason to think we will trade more outside the EU than now , or companies will even survive long enough - while they wait for post 2019 trade deals to be worked up. We entered the EU because our global trading strategy had failed miserably - nothing has improved much since.

And all those countries you mention are precisely the ones that we are protected from now by the EU, plus the ones where things are too chaotic to conduct fair trade. A trade deal will mean their imports coming here . As their Labour costs are much lower , guess who is going to lose jobs? And hopes for the US seem unrealistic . Trump is a protectionist - who is demanding more favourable trade deals for the US . if we get anything, its going to be by taking what he wants us to take, and adopting what standards he wants us to, Its a new meaning of taking control - just not us doing it.
Not sure you really understood what I was saying.
If the EU is predicted to grow by 1.6% and 1.5% but the major developed and emerging countries are set to grow at between 2.5% and 7% we will have a much better opportunity to sell our goods to them rather than just focusing on the EU.

The reason our global trade strategy hasn't improved since we joined the EU is precisely because we are in the EU. When we joined China's GDP in terms of billion dollars was next to nothing at $46bn. It began expanding in the late 90's and is now 11,000 billion. Other developing countries are also performing along similar lines (Though not at China's level)
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:49
jjwales
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Remainers seem to think we can honour the referendum result yet still opt to remain members of the single market.
I have to tell them that this prospect seems highly unlikely given the stance of the EU that single market membership = 4 freedoms being retained.
Whatever you think people voted for, a majorty vote to leave the EU surely means that those voting have demanded an end to 1, 2, 3 or all 4 of those freedoms. Without all 4 being honoured, we are out of the SM. Haven't they said that we can't cherry-pick?
The only chance of being in the SM is if the EU do a U-turn and give us our cake (cherry cake, anybody?).

So tell me, remainers, how the referendum result can be honoured AND we stay in the SM??
Simply - follow the example of Norway. Not a member of the EU but has access to the EU’s internal market. Not that I would recommend it, but it's a possibility.
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:49
trevgo
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Millions voted without the faintest idea about the implications. As this poll shows, 90% want free access to the single market, but 70% want immigration controls. The cake-and-eat-it brigade.

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/analysis/...t-from-brexit/

When the stark choice between the two stares them in the face, and they realise they were misled there will be serious tears.
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:51
paulschapman
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We left in 1973 on joining the EEC. The EEC and subsequently the EU are members. As such it includes free movement of people. When we leave the EU, we will be leaving the EEA. As such we would then have to rejoin but in doing so we would then have to accept the same treaty stipulations as other members including free movement of people.
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:55
Glawster2002
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Remainers seem to think we can honour the referendum result yet still opt to remain members of the single market.
I have to tell them that this prospect seems highly unlikely given the stance of the EU that single market membership = 4 freedoms being retained.
Whatever you think people voted for, a majorty vote to leave the EU surely means that those voting have demanded an end to 1, 2, 3 or all 4 of those freedoms. Without all 4 being honoured, we are out of the SM. Haven't they said that we can't cherry-pick?
The only chance of being in the SM is if the EU do a U-turn and give us our cake (cherry cake, anybody?).

So tell me, remainers, how the referendum result can be honoured AND we stay in the SM??
As a 'remainer' I understand the possible consequences of losing those four 'freedoms', however I wonder just how many of those who voted to leave actually do?

The possibility of having to buy a visa to travel to Europe on holiday.
The possibility of the price of all of our imports, food, goods, etc, increasing because of WTO import tarrifs.
The possibility of declining exports because of those same tariffs meaning our goods and services are less competitive.
The possibility of a crisis in the NHS and social care services if those Eastern Europeans deemed "unskilled", who carry out many of those essential jobs, are required to leave.

I could go on, but none of this was mentioned or considered by the Leave campaign and dismissed as "scaremongering" or Project Feat when mentioned by the Remain campaign.

Of course none of the above many happen but if the recent speech by Michel Barnier is anything to go by, they are becoming somewhat more likely.
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:56
trunkster
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Millions voted without the faintest idea about the implications. As this poll shows, 90% want free access to the single market, but 70% want immigration controls. The cake-and-eat-it brigade.

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/analysis/...t-from-brexit/

When the stark choice between the two stares them in the face, and they realise they were misled there will be serious tears.
Err nope, but keep believing that if it makes you feel better.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:02
jmclaugh
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If you voted to leave to stop FoM or make UK law not subservient to EU law or to stop paying billions in contributions to the EU or for all of those then you voted to leave the single market.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:03
Irritable Owl
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Simply - follow the example of Norway. Not a member of the EU but has access to the EU’s internal market. Not that I would recommend it, but it's a possibility.
Too many disadvantages if we followed the Norway model and not something the public voted for.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:05
LostFool
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Too many disadvantages if we followed the Norway model and not something the public voted for.
Not as many disadvantages as leaving the single market totally.

The Norway model isn't ideal but it looks like the least worst solution for the mess we are in.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:07
GibsonSG
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No one said the vote wasn't to leave the single market. However only an idiot would think it was a good thing.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:11
Irritable Owl
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As a 'remainer' I understand the possible consequences of losing those four 'freedoms', however I wonder just how many of those who voted to leave actually do?

The possibility of having to buy a visa to travel to Europe on holiday.
The possibility of the price of all of our imports, food, goods, etc, increasing because of WTO import tarrifs.
The possibility of declining exports because of those same tariffs meaning our goods and services are less competitive.
The possibility of a crisis in the NHS and social care services if those Eastern Europeans deemed "unskilled", who carry out many of those essential jobs, are required to leave.

I could go on, but none of this was mentioned or considered by the Leave campaign and dismissed as "scaremongering" or Project Feat when mentioned by the Remain campaign.

Of course none of the above many happen but if the recent speech by Michel Barnier is anything to go by, they are becoming somewhat more likely.
A Visa is going to cost you £10-20 which is a tiny fraction of what you will be spending on your trip.

Imports from the EU which will increase in price will be balanced by low prices from non-EU countries who we will be free to trade with.

Declining exports: well the EU's exports to us will also decline giving opportunities to UK companies to fill the void. Also, we will be able to do trade deals around the world with a much larger region.

NHS: no one is talking of stopping immigration completely. We will be able to pick and choose who comes in, doctors and nurses included. We can cherry pick from the world, not just from the EU.

Plenty of this WAS mentioned during the debates.

Barnier should realise that a free trade deal between the EU and the UK is in the interests of both parties. We are a big customer of theirs. Why would they happily agree to tariffs on their exports to us? They might, but does it make sense?
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:12
jjwales
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If you voted to leave to stop FoM or make UK law not subservient to EU law or to stop paying billions in contributions to the EU or for all of those then you voted to leave the single market.
And it follows that if you didn't vote to leave for any of these reasons, then you didn't vote to leave the single market.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:14
Thiswillbefun
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Remainers seem to think we can honour the referendum result yet still opt to remain members of the single market.
I have to tell them that this prospect seems highly unlikely given the stance of the EU that single market membership = 4 freedoms being retained.
Whatever you think people voted for, a majorty vote to leave the EU surely means that those voting have demanded an end to 1, 2, 3 or all 4 of those freedoms. Without all 4 being honoured, we are out of the SM. Haven't they said that we can't cherry-pick?
The only chance of being in the SM is if the EU do a U-turn and give us our cake (cherry cake, anybody?).

So tell me, remainers, how the referendum result can be honoured AND we stay in the SM??
Easy. Honour the fact that the referendum was advisory, was stated as so, and does not need to be acted on.

Receives cake and eats.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:14
Irritable Owl
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No one said the vote wasn't to leave the single market. However only an idiot would think it was a good thing.
Only an idiot would insist of freedom of movement being a pre-requisite of single market membership.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:16
Irritable Owl
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Easy. Honour the fact that the referendum was advisory, was stated as so, and does not need to be acted on.

Receives cake and eats.
Consequences - lose next election or, at best, end up in a coalition.

Chokes on cake.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:16
Englishspinner
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No one said the vote wasn't to leave the single market. However only an idiot would think it was a good thing.
These would be the same idiots who are gleefully anticipating the EU falling apart after or even before Brexit, which would be especially catastrophic for the UK.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:19
Irritable Owl
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And it follows that if you didn't vote to leave for any of these reasons, then you didn't vote to leave the single market.
Here's someone who thinks that the referendum can be honoured by, effectively, remaining in the EU.

Still waiting to hear how we can honour the vote to LEAVE THE EU and remain in the single market.

Hint: EU would need to do a U-turn.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:25
jjwales
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Here's someone who thinks that the referendum can be honoured by, effectively, remaining in the EU.

Still waiting to hear how we can honour the vote to LEAVE THE EU and remain in the single market.

Hint: EU would need to do a U-turn.
No, we could just follow the Norway model, as I've already said.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:29
KIIS102
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I voted out for a few reasons, getting that Blue flag out of this country for one. I didn't vote to leave Europe, I voted to get the EU out of this country.

I'm think a lot of folk are sick of people saying "no one knew what they voted for" but it's going to continue to make some people feel better so it's fine.

There's 40years worth of laws that need to be negotiated so literally no one has thought of every single one before voting. I'm sure a huge majority of people voted based on their views on a few issues (immigration, trade, fishing etc) and knew there would be a ton of laws we know nothing about that have been passed (slightly scary) that would be effected.

I'll be glad when the UK PM can go round to various parts of the world and Europe without having to stand next to the Union Flag and the EU flag, just 1 is enough.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:35
LostFool
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I'll be glad when the UK PM can go round to various parts of the world and Europe without having to stand next to the Union Flag and the EU flag, just 1 is enough.
Does this actually happen or is it a figment of your imagination? Other countries may display the EU flag alongside their own but I've never seen the UK PM give a press conference at home or abroad with both flags on display.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:41
allaorta
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Millions voted without the faintest idea about the implications. As this poll shows, 90% want free access to the single market, but 70% want immigration controls. The cake-and-eat-it brigade.

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/analysis/...t-from-brexit/

When the stark choice between the two stares them in the face, and they realise they were misled there will be serious tears.
Best prepare by emptying the buckets you've been using since June.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:47
trevgo
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Best prepare by emptying the buckets you've been using since June.
I keep saying it.

We on this side will have the last laugh.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:48
trevgo
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I voted out for a few reasons, getting that Blue flag out of this country for one. I didn't vote to leave Europe, I voted to get the EU out of this country.
What caused this irrational paranoia?

Are you allergic to blue, or stars, or something? There's probably (imported) medication available.
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