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Is the plan to leave the EU or to destroy it?


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Old 07-12-2016, 09:01
Miasima Goria
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Rafael Behr thinks the UK could accidentally wreck the EU. I suspect it is the aim for the likes of Fox
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...mment-88987047
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:09
Resonance
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I doubt us leaving will make much difference to the EU project. They'll try and keep it on the rails as long as possible, probably at the expense of EU citizens (already happening). Eventually it will fail though, but that was always going to happen.

This shows the real problem though. From the article.......

After Britain’s decision to leave the European Union, continental governments above all fear contagion. Once the precedent is set, voters in other countries could be infected with the same rebellious spirit.
They're not interested what the people actually want, they just want them to be good little citizens who do as they're told. No rebellious spirit allowed. Keep ignoring people's views and you see the result eventually. Be it Brexit, Trump or whatever the next upset will be.
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:16
Ragnarok
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Rafael Behr thinks the UK could accidentally wreck the EU. I suspect it is the aim for the likes of Fox
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...mment-88987047
With our current Government, They could easily wreck the EU desperately trying to find a way to keep us in. Most of the best things that happen in government happen by accident, not design, these days.
In fact the referendum couldn't have gone more wrong, not only did we vote to leave, but the government are now showing contempt for our opinions. and if the main party's continue on there path they may well bring about the rise of a challenge to power like a Farage.

If the EU was as strong and democratic, as they want us to think, this wouldn't even be an issue that could bring down the house.
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:27
Eurostar
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I doubt us leaving will make much difference to the EU project. They'll try and keep it on the rails as long as possible, probably at the expense of EU citizens (already happening). Eventually it will fail though, but that was always going to happen.

This shows the real problem though. From the article.......



They're not interested what the people actually want, they just want them to be good little citizens who do as they're told. No rebellious spirit allowed. Keep ignoring people's views and you see the result eventually. Be it Brexit, Trump or whatever the next upset will be.
And replace it with what though? A right wing (or far left) Europe consisting of hard borders and nationalist minded states competing with each other sounds like it would be something much worse than what is currently in place. It certainly doesn't seem like a recipe for economic success and political stability,
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:28
Dotheboyshall
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I suspect there are many Brexiters who are more interested in destroying the EU rather than ensuring a good future for the UK.
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:42
Resonance
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And replace it with what though? A right wing (or far left) Europe consisting of hard borders and nationalist minded states competing with each other sounds like it would be something much worse than what is currently in place. It certainly doesn't seem like a recipe for economic success and political stability,
Why does the lack of an EU mean you have to have right wing or far left governments? If anything the EU is causing a growth market in that area.

What about a simple trading bloc with sovereign governments. With democracy at their hearts. Lots of asking the people and less telling the people what they have to accept. Basically the opposite of the EU

We could even have regular online referendums on important issues. I can but dream
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:44
Ragnarok
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I suspect there are many Brexiters who are more interested in destroying the EU rather than ensuring a good future for the UK.
I don't think bringing down the EU like this is good for our interests. We barley ready for a hard Brexit to happen in the next ten years, we'll need more like 15-20, let alone 2 years if they try it.

If we are in disarray what about the rest of the EU if it goes down. The markets will tank amongst the confusion, that makes it a world wide market problem.
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:45
Eurostar
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Why does the lack of an EU mean you have to have right wing or far left governments? If anything the EU is causing a growth market in that area.

What about a simple trading bloc with sovereign governments. With democracy at their hearts. Lots of asking the people and less telling the people what they have to accept. Basically the opposite of the EU

We could even have regular online referendums on important issues. I can but dream
It sounds great on paper but on the other hand one wonders how smashing the Single Market up and replacing it with 28 competing economies would leave the citizens of Europe better off.
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:48
alan29
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Economic and political chaos is in nobody's interest.
I'm always a bit surprised at the "wreck the EU" brigade.
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:49
Vast_Girth
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Its clear some brexiters are practically orgasmic at the prospect of the destruction of the EU, despite the damage it will cause the UK whether we are on the inside or outside.
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:53
VicnBob
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Its clear some brexiters are practically orgasmic at the prospect of the destruction of the EU, despite the damage it will cause the UK whether we are on the inside or outside.
Farage comes to mind
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:54
Resonance
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It sounds great on paper but on the other hand one wonders how smashing the Single Market up and replacing it with 28 competing economies would leave the citizens of Europe better off.
We're competing now. British companies are going for the same contracts as German companies. Britain wants Spain to buy our products, Germany want them to buy theirs etc etc.

Yes, we agree not to slap tariffs on each other, but we pay for the privilege so we might as well be doing. We're paying for the political beast that is the EU, when there is no advantage in doing so.

We've basically got together and agreed to waste a load of money, when all we need is to sign up to freely trade with each other.
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:07
Dotheboyshall
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Farage comes to mind
Farage is a professional brexiter, the last thing he wanted was a Brexit vote as it would mean the end of an easy life for him. Look how quickly he sucked up to trump.
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:09
Welsh-lad
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Going by many brexiters on here, the aim is to destroy the EU, you can tell that from the glee they express at things like the Italian referendum result, and chillingly, the prospect of LePenn getting elected in France.
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:11
jmclaugh
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What a load of tosh and if the EU can't survive one out of 28 members leaving then the fault lies with it.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:33
Granny McSmith
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We're competing now. British companies are going for the same contracts as German companies. Britain wants Spain to buy our products, Germany want them to buy theirs etc etc.

Yes, we agree not to slap tariffs on each other, but we pay for the privilege so we might as well be doing. We're paying for the political beast that is the EU, when there is no advantage in doing so.

We've basically got together and agreed to waste a load of money, when all we need is to sign up to freely trade with each other.
Excellent post.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:37
Granny McSmith
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What a load of tosh and if the EU can't survive one out of 28 members leaving then the fault lies with it.
Well, they'll lose a cash cow......will they be able to afford to carry on when we're gone?
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:41
corf
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Of course they can survive, I suspect they will continue doing very well as a whole. Shame those poor greeks, portuguese or spanish might not think so.

Their biggest issue is the euro and what to do about further integration and fiscal control. If they can sort out that nightmare they will be in good shape.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:41
Kiteview
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What a load of tosh and if the EU can't survive one out of 28 members leaving then the fault lies with it.
The EU certainly can survive our departure.

There are, however, a sizeable chunk of Brexiters who hate the EU so much that they'd cheer on its demise even if, as a consequence, they knew that the U.K. would be reduced to penury in the process.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:45
tiggertiny
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What a load of tosh and if the EU can't survive one out of 28 members leaving then the fault lies with it.
Funny isn't it that what the EU eurocrats fear most, apart from the migrant disaster restarting and the Italian banks collapsing, is their own populations daring to question the project.

The peasantry should know their place and shut up, a view contrary to that of the Junckers of this world is not welcome.

If it can only survive as a political entity by using threats and fear it isn't worth preserving.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:46
Kiteview
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Well, they'll lose a cash cow......will they be able to afford to carry on when we're gone?
Yes.

To set it in context, our annual net contribution to the EU budget (after rebates) is less than we spend on the NHS in Wales, so it is hardly an insurmountable budgetary problem for the rest of the EU to overcome.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:52
Tassium
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It sounds great on paper but on the other hand one wonders how smashing the Single Market up and replacing it with 28 competing economies would leave the citizens of Europe better off.
Because competition is the real wealth creator.

Whenever there is the absence of competition you get poverty of service and poverty of wealth for the many, the EU is no different in that.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:53
Granny McSmith
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The EU certainly can survive our departure.

There are, however, a sizeable chunk of Brexiters who hate the EU so much that they'd cheer on its demise even if, as a consequence, they knew that the U.K. would be reduced to penury in the process.
I don't care about the EU because I think it brings it's ills upon itself, and is totally non self aware and non self critical. I hope we do well, however, and are not reduced to penury.

There do seem to be some remainers who are so angry at the referendum result that they apparently hope that the EU flourishes while we go down the pan.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:57
B-29
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Rafael Behr thinks the UK could accidentally wreck the EU. I suspect it is the aim for the likes of Fox
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...mment-88987047
Let's hope so .
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:15
Ragnarok
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I don't care about the EU because I think it brings it's ills upon itself, and is totally non self aware and non self critical. I hope we do well, however, and are not reduced to penury.

There do seem to be some remainers who are so angry at the referendum result that they apparently hope that the EU flourishes while we go down the pan.

I Agree the EU needs to be systemically dismantled in a safe well thought out plan, but not destroyed in one fell swoop. The so called Pedants has nothing to do with this and certainly do not deserve the markets punishing them with the political chaos a destruction of the EU would cause.

Unfortunately we have such a shower of idiots in charge, I think the EU will go down in chaos.

Because competition is the real wealth creator.

Whenever there is the absence of competition you get poverty of service and poverty of wealth for the many, the EU is no different in that.
Amen, at least someone here has a grasp of what works, While we are messing around, Trump, even as president elect, is getting to work setting the US up to be competitive and successful again.

Hopefully we have enough time for Trump's straight talking and actions to demonstrate what a shower fools we have in office before they screw things up here and spark an early general election, so people don't elect another Conservative/Labour government until they change.
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