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Is the plan to leave the EU or to destroy it?


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Old 07-12-2016, 12:21
Welsh-lad
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Well, they'll lose a cash cow......will they be able to afford to carry on when we're gone?
Of course they won't. Doesn't Yerp realise yet how bloody important we are?
Yerp will be begging us to rejoin, crawling on their froggy bellies once they see us prospering and deigning to trade with the Empi.... er.... Commonwealth!

Of course we will an antagonistic element from now on, not partners, and they could just refuse to budge on any deals, lose us financial passporting, and the entire financial sector could move itself to where it can serve the EEA,
Perhaps Frankfurt? Who knows.

Bye bye 20% of GDP What a shame.
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:22
Kiteview
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Because competition is the real wealth creator.

Whenever there is the absence of competition you get poverty of service and poverty of wealth for the many, the EU is no different in that.
The EU is the world's richest single market which has removed & continues to remove barriers to competition between its member states and companies.

Breaking it up into 28 separate markets, all ring fenced with the inevitable paperwork and - no doubt - multiple layers of tariffs would INHIBIT competition, not promote it. That would result in increased "poverty of service" and "poverty of wealth" due to the reduction in competition.
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:24
Ragnarok
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If the financial sector had any sense they's be have HQ's in Switzerland by now, outside the EU but with single market access, and some of the best world wide trade deals in place already.
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:26
Ragnarok
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The EU is the world's richest single market which has removed & continues to remove barriers to competition between its member states and companies.

Breaking it up into 28 separate markets, all ring fenced with the inevitable paperwork and - no doubt - multiple layers of tariffs would INHIBIT competition, not promote it. That would result in increased "poverty of service" and "poverty of wealth" due to the reduction in competition.
it's the EU's firewall of tariffs and protectionism that are killing alot of business Europe wide.
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:27
Kiteview
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I don't care about the EU because I think it brings it's ills upon itself, and is totally non self aware and non self critical.
The EU is the creation of its member states and its flaws are the exact same ones that you find in any member state. Westminster is hardly "self critical", is it?

I hope we do well, however, and are not reduced to penury.

There do seem to be some remainers who are so angry at the referendum result that they apparently hope that the EU flourishes while we go down the pan.
The economic forecasts are that we'll be worse off should we leave. Hopefully it wouldn't reduce us to penury though since the smaller the economic damage the easier the recovery when we come to our senses and re-join.
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:32
Mou Mou Land
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If the financial sector had any sense they's be have HQ's in Switzerland by now, outside the EU but with single market access, and some of the best world wide trade deals in place already.
And what is your answer to the fact they do not?
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:32
MargMck
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I don't care about the EU because I think it brings it's ills upon itself, and is totally non self aware and non self critical. I hope we do well, however, and are not reduced to penury.

There do seem to be some remainers who are so angry at the referendum result that they apparently hope that the EU flourishes while we go down the pan.
Definitely this.
Once we are out of the EU I'll simply wish well those countries choosing to remain. If it's truly wonderful, no more will try to leave it or the Euro, but I will applaud anyone else who escapes. Either it will evolve into a USof E (there's more chance of this perhaps when we, the EU Grinches have left), or implode.
We will have to react and adjust, but not be at the acute end, either way.
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:32
Kiteview
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it's the EU's firewall of tariffs and protectionism that are killing alot of business Europe wide.
Most businesses & governments would disagree with you since they would regard them as protecting those businesses from "dumping" & other unfair practices. For instance, when the Port Talbot steelworks story broke, I don't recall too many people who wanted less tariffs at the time, rather the complaints were very much the opposite.
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:34
trevgo
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I Agree the EU needs to be systemically dismantled in a safe well thought out plan, but not destroyed in one fell swoop.
What right has anyone here to declare the EU has to be dismantled? There is no other EU country about to vote to leave - it has majority support.

The EU will cope perfectly well without us. If it's a hard brexit, they have a lot of shifting businesses to look forward to. Our contribution has already been re-allocated, and it's a speck of sand in the scheme of things.
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:34
Mou Mou Land
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Any crumbling of the EU as it stands will have nothing to do with us leaving, just the intransigence of the Union itself. One small change to the UK's immigration and benefit policies would have saved the calamitous times the whole EU is about to face.

Well done Ms Merkel.
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:39
Kiteview
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Definitely this.
Once we are out of the EU I'll simply wish well those countries choosing to remain. If it's truly wonderful, no more will try to leave it or the Euro, but I will applaud anyone else who escapes. Either it will evolve into a USof E (there's more chance of this perhaps when we, the EU Grinches have left), or implode.
We will have to react and adjust, but not be at the acute end, either way.
That's a false either/or. The EU will continue on as a union of sovereign nations just as it currently is since that is what its members want.

Your claim is a bit akin to claiming that a post-Brexit UK must either evolve into a perfect capitalist (or communist) state or it must implode with its seperate nations all becoming independent.

In reality neither the EU nor a post-Brexit UK face such false either/or choices.
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:47
Eurostar
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The EU is the world's richest single market which has removed & continues to remove barriers to competition between its member states and companies.

Breaking it up into 28 separate markets, all ring fenced with the inevitable paperwork and - no doubt - multiple layers of tariffs would INHIBIT competition, not promote it. That would result in increased "poverty of service" and "poverty of wealth" due to the reduction in competition.
From an economic viewpoint, dismantling the Single Market (which has been in place for 25 years) and replacing it with 28 competing economies makes no sense whatsoever.

But this has nothing to do with economics of course. The right wing (and sometimes left wing) nationalists in each country want to see the destruction of the EU as a political union as they think this will mean the end of elites, liberalism, globalisation, multiculturalism and immigration.
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:55
Ironwithin
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Us wrecking the EU would be like us liberating Europe in WW1 and WW2.
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:58
alan29
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Us wrecking the EU would be like us liberating Europe in WW1 and WW2.
With just a wee bit of help from the USA.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:04
Cheetah666
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Us wrecking the EU would be like us liberating Europe in WW1 and WW2.
Utter delusion and arrogance. Other European countries are already free to leave any time they like, we don't need Britain to liberate us. Just mind your own business, get on with Brexit and let the rest of Europe get on with doing what they want.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:06
Mou Mou Land
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Utter delusion and arrogance. Other European countries are already free to leave any time they like, we don't need Britain to liberate us. Just mind your own business, get on with Brexit and let the rest of Europe get on with doing what they want.
Free to leave whenever they like?



What do you think all the pressure on us to stay is about?
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:11
aurichie
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Free to leave whenever they like?



What do you think all the pressure on us to stay is about?
The pressure is on us to get on with pursuing whatever deal we want, invoke article 50, and start the negotiations. It is not about pressuring us to reverse the referendum result. It is about putting an end to the uncertainty and restoring confidence.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:14
Ironwithin
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Utter delusion and arrogance. Other European countries are already free to leave any time they like, we don't need Britain to liberate us. Just mind your own business, get on with Brexit and let the rest of Europe get on with doing what they want.
No they are not, as the people are never given a referendum, as a lot of countries are worried how the actual people would vote.

We should have maybe just kept our nose out of the rest of Europe in WW1 and WW2 and at least the German European project would be farther ahead so you would be happy.

Also the threat from the EU that if you leave the club you will take a punishment beating, is not a club i want to be in. it is like the mafia.

Also the EU is not Europe, I love Europe but the EU is destroying it.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:18
Dacco
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Rafael Behr thinks the UK could accidentally wreck the EU. I suspect it is the aim for the likes of Fox
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...mment-88987047
No problem here, move on please.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:33
MargMck
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That's a false either/or. The EU will continue on as a union of sovereign nations just as it currently is since that is what its members want.

Your claim is a bit akin to claiming that a post-Brexit UK must either evolve into a perfect capitalist (or communist) state or it must implode with its seperate nations all becoming independent.

In reality neither the EU nor a post-Brexit UK face such false either/or choices.
It's not a false either/ or, but simply what I believe will eventually happen. Your belief, of the EU just ticking along long term with the status quo after Brexit, might appeal to you, but seems the least likely option in my opinion.
But then again, unlike some Remainers on here, I don't expect GB to self-destruct post Brexit, just find a new, independent and prosperous path.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:37
Cheetah666
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Free to leave whenever they like?



What do you think all the pressure on us to stay is about?
There is no pressure on you to stay. Any opposition to triggering Article 50 is coming entirely from within the UK, the rest of the EU want you to hurry up and get on with it.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:41
Cheetah666
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No they are not, as the people are never given a referendum, as a lot of countries are worried how the actual people would vote.

We should have maybe just kept our nose out of the rest of Europe in WW1 and WW2 and at least the German European project would be farther ahead so you would be happy.

Also the threat from the EU that if you leave the club you will take a punishment beating, is not a club i want to be in. it is like the mafia.

Also the EU is not Europe, I love Europe but the EU is destroying it.
There's no call from people within any other EU country for a referendum, and given that every other EU country is a democracy, the people of those countries can tell their own governments if they want a referendum. Its not up to you to speak for them.

The comparison between the EU and the two world wars is immature bollocks that I can't be bothered to respond to.

Nobody has threatened the UK with a punishment beating, you've been told that if you leave the club you lose the benefits of the club. Actions have consequences, just grow up and deal with it.
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Old 07-12-2016, 14:07
Mou Mou Land
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There's no call from people within any other EU country for a referendum, and given that every other EU country is a democracy, the people of those countries can tell their own governments if they want a referendum. Its not up to you to speak for them.

The comparison between the EU and the two world wars is immature bollocks that I can't be bothered to respond to.

Nobody has threatened the UK with a punishment beating, you've been told that if you leave the club you lose the benefits of the club. Actions have consequences, just grow up and deal with it.
Sorry, but the rest of Europe is watching and waiting, hence the hardline status taken by EU negotiators.

France et al are just waiting to see what happens.

ETA - is not the EU credited with stopping any more European/World wars? If so, any comparison is valid.
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Old 07-12-2016, 14:12
Ironwithin
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There's no call from people within any other EU country for a referendum, and given that every other EU country is a democracy, the people of those countries can tell their own governments if they want a referendum. Its not up to you to speak for them.

The comparison between the EU and the two world wars is immature bollocks that I can't be bothered to respond to.

Nobody has threatened the UK with a punishment beating, you've been told that if you leave the club you lose the benefits of the club. Actions have consequences, just grow up and deal with it.
Sorry that is factually incorrect, countries like France and Holland have parties which could win their next elections and want referendums of in or out of the EU. They would not have a chance to win unless people see having a referendum and a chance to vote out as a positive.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...of-eu-members/

All around the EU people are catching on to how badly the EU is letting Europe down.
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Old 07-12-2016, 14:13
Staunchy
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Ah it' must be an odd numbered week and therefore the UK is powerful enough to bring down the mighty EU. Only five more days and we enter an even numbered week where the UK reverts back to an insignificant group of islands in the North Atlantic. It's hard keeping up sometimes.
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