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Why there should be a second referendum before March


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Old 07-12-2016, 12:55
trevgo
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The referendum on 23rd June has created more questions than answers. There was a fog of misinformation. The hairshirt gang claim it's a mandate for a highly damaging hard Brexit - and May seems to collude. The remainers are aghast at the prospect, and claim it is no such mandate.

The real truth is that nobody knows. Nobody knows what the majority would choose if it's between single market/FOM or hard Brexit. This is such a colossal issue it will be outrageous if either route is followed without further consultation. The consequences of either route should be spelled out - there would be another fog of misinformation no doubt, but the electorate is a bit more savvy after the 5 months of utter chaos.

There should be the following options:

1) Remain in single market, contributions to be made, FOM maintained.
2) Leave the single market, and if no compromise can be achieved, on WTO terms.
3) Leave it totally to the Government's discretion
4) Let's call the whole thing off.

It should be STV - voters can list in order of preference. If no option makes over 50%, second choices are redistributed until one does. Absolutely the most democratic way of doing it. The result would be binding. After the conclusion there would be no doubt whatsoever what the majority (of those who vote) want, and they would proceed with genuine public support.

If we blindly storm ahead, it will ensure the country remains bitterly divided, with blame being thrown from side to side for the foreseeable future. This proposal would avoid that. I for one, would totally accept the result - even if it were the opposite of what I want. If you truly believe in democracy, then this is the only way to healing this open sore.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:07
aurichie
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We're not leaving the single market. And it would be pure insanity to give the idiots who voted for brexit the chance to force us out of the single market in another referendum.

The politicians will sort this out. Most of them are united in wanting to make sure we remain wedded to the single market. For now we just have to put up with this silly punch and judy show and playing to the galleries. But there is no chance the Tories want to go against business interests and pull us out with a hard brexit, Labour is almost universally on the same side, and the Lib Dems also back the position.

I'm actually quite calm about what is going to happen in the months ahead, and the markets are starting to behave that way too.

I just don't envy Theresa May's challenge of dealing with the hard blue brexiteers on the backbenches. They are a nasty bunch, and they will want to force her out when they see what brexit really means.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:12
James_Orton
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Your 4 questions wouldn't get past any scrutiny. Perhaps try again without questions that a 1st year snowflake at uni might put together to look edgy.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:15
Granny McSmith
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My questions would be simpler.

1. Do you want to stay in the single market, even if it means keeping FoM?

2. Do you want to abolish FoM, even if it means leaving the single market?

We can't vote to stay or leave; we've done that already.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:18
aurichie
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My questions would be simpler.

1. Do you want to stay in the single market, even if it means keeping FoM?

2. Do you want to abolish FoM, even if it means leaving the single market?

We can't vote to stay or leave; we've done that already.
We are not leaving the single market. We are never going to have a referendum on that question. It is a complete non-starter as the economic fallout would be beyond devastating.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:21
MargMck
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Trevgo and Aurichie... what wonderful bedfellows you make, although it's nice to see Aurichie "quite calm" about what we face in the coming months.
But Trevgo... do you really think your muddled STV "referendum" with a binding result is fooling anyone?
I'll just put it on the list of latest whacko ideas of "how to ultimately stop Brexit from happening while pretending we're actually only concerned about democracy."
Anyway, carry on being one of Blair's "insurgents".
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:21
trevgo
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We're not leaving the single market. And it would be pure insanity to give the idiots who voted for brexit the chance to force us out of the single market in another referendum.
Sorry, but you're misguided. All the signs are that we are definitely leaving the single market. All the language is as such. You should have seen Letwin on Newsnight. It's become all "it was said repeatedly during the campaign, so it's definitely what people voted for". There's all this rubbish about cherry picking the single market and paying for the privilege - that is not on offer.

You are placing way too much trust in a Tory government, and I'm surprised at you. This is much, much too important to leave to a hunch that it will be OK in the end.

Your 4 questions wouldn't get past any scrutiny. Perhaps try again without questions that a 1st year snowflake at uni might put together to look edgy.
Nice constructive argument there. Sad to break it to you - if you voted Remain (which I doubt), you are automatically as "snowflake".
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:22
Fried Kickin
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Before March
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:22
Granny McSmith
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We are not leaving the single market. We are never going to have a referendum on that question. It is a complete non-starter as the economic fallout would be beyond devastating.
So that means we're leaving, then.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:23
trevgo
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My questions would be simpler.

1. Do you want to stay in the single market, even if it means keeping FoM?

2. Do you want to abolish FoM, even if it means leaving the single market?

We can't vote to stay or leave; we've done that already.
I don't object to that. There could be discussion how the questions would be worded (and it would be very important).

I would have a remain question, but no matter - do you object to the principle?
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:24
trevgo
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We are not leaving the single market. We are never going to have a referendum on that question. It is a complete non-starter as the economic fallout would be beyond devastating.
You're trying to convince yourself. You are in for a massive upset.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:25
MargMck
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So that means we're leaving, then.
It's always a relief when Aurichie states exactly what's going to happen.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:26
TeeGee
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We should have another referendum because the OP thinks that his side will win next time.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:27
Granny McSmith
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I don't object to that. There could be discussion how the questions would be worded (and it would be very important).

I would have a remain question, but no matter - do you object to the principle?
Yes. I happen to think that politicians get paid to sort this stuff out. No need to keep running to the electorate for confirmation. Also, we are negotiating with the EU - having a referendum about what we want is futile when they can just tell us we can't have it.

Waste of money and time.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:30
trunkster
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Oh look, another I can't/won't accept the referendum result thread.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:31
trevgo
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We should have another referendum because the OP thinks that his side will win next time.
Don't tar everyone with your infantile brush. The only possible objection from you is because you fear you would be proved to be in the minority.

Yes. I happen to think that politicians get paid to sort this stuff out. .
Precisely. Which is why we should never have had the referendum in the first place.

Hoist by your own petard. With an EU flag on top.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:31
James_Orton
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Nice constructive argument there. Sad to break it to you - if you voted Remain (which I doubt), you are automatically as "snowflake".
About as constructive as a failed business owner (I doubt you are no more than a Walter mitty character in this) tailoring a referendum to give him the result he wants.

Your questions are ridiculous.

Why not try to come up with some decent ones, which don't include staying in. Perhaps then you won't be treated like a drama queen throwing a 6 month tantrum.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:33
aurichie
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Sorry, but you're misguided. All the signs are that we are definitely leaving the single market. All the language is as such. You should have seen Letwin on Newsnight. It's become all "it was said repeatedly during the campaign, so it's definitely what people voted for". There's all this rubbish about cherry picking the single market and paying for the privilege - that is not on offer.

You are placing way too much trust in a Tory government, and I'm surprised at you. This is much, much too important to leave to a hunch that it will be OK in the end.
It really comes down to a question of whether you believe the Conservatives are going to ignore big business and all the lobbying going on at the moment and pull us out of the single market, or will they remain true to their beliefs and do what is best for business and best for Britain? If they go for the former option then it'll be like turkeys voting for Christmas because they will lose a lot of financial support and backing from people they need.

You also shouldn't be surprised that I trust a Tory government given I am a life-long Conservative voter.

I just recognise Theresa May is in a very tough spot right now. She needs to act tough and lose some battles so she can demonstrate to the brexiteers in her own party she at least fought their good fight and lost. It's the only chance she has of remaining prime minister once the hardline brexiteers on the backbenches see what deal we're going for (they won't like it).

The Supreme Court appeal is an utter embarrassment how poorly it is going. But I am convinced they want to lose just show it's another fight on their battle card. That can be the only sensible explanation in my mind. But they are doing such a poor job that it's hard to even put this in the battle we fought and lost column right now.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:33
KezM
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We're not leaving the single market. And it would be pure insanity to give the idiots who voted for brexit the chance to force us out of the single market in another referendum.

The politicians will sort this out. Most of them are united in wanting to make sure we remain wedded to the single market. For now we just have to put up with this silly punch and judy show and playing to the galleries. But there is no chance the Tories want to go against business interests and pull us out with a hard brexit, Labour is almost universally on the same side, and the Lib Dems also back the position.

I'm actually quite calm about what is going to happen in the months ahead, and the markets are starting to behave that way too.

I just don't envy Theresa May's challenge of dealing with the hard blue brexiteers on the backbenches. They are a nasty bunch, and they will want to force her out when they see what brexit really means.
As confident as when you congratulated Remain before the results had come in?
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:37
trunkster
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It really comes down to a question of whether you believe the Conservatives are going to ignore big business and all the lobbying going on at the moment and pull us out of the single market, or will they remain true to their beliefs and do what is best for business and best for Britain? If they go for the former option then it'll be like turkeys voting for Christmas because they will lose a lot of financial support and backing from people they need.

You also shouldn't be surprised that I trust a Tory government given I am a life-long Conservative voter.

I just recognise Theresa May is in a very tough spot right now. She needs to act tough and lose some battles so she can demonstrate to the brexiteers in her own party she at least fought their good fight and lost. It's the only chance she has of remaining prime minister once the hardline brexiteers on the backbenches see what deal we're going for (they won't like it).

The Supreme Court appeal is an utter embarrassment how poorly it is going. But I am convinced they want to lose just show it's another fight on their battle card. That can be the only sensible explanation in my mind. But they are doing such a poor job that it's hard to even put this in the battle we fought and lost column right now.
So you're happy with "big business" dictating policy? or is it only in this instance that you are?
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:40
Granny McSmith
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Precisely. Which is why we should never have had the referendum in the first place.

Hoist by your own petard. With an EU flag on top.
When there is obviously dissatisfaction in the country, then a referendum may be necessary. Once we've had it, though, that's it - it's up to politicians to sort out the fallout.

I demand a Union Flag on top of my petard.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:42
TeeGee
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Don't tar everyone with your infantile brush. The only possible objection from you is because you fear you would be proved to be in the minority.
.
As Remainers currently are. You may not have noticed.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:46
Fried Kickin
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As Remainers currently are. You may not have noticed.
Apparently 48% is greater than 52% in 2016
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:47
aurichie
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So you're happy with "big business" dictating policy? or is it only in this instance that you are?
I have no problem with business trying to exert some influence over policy when they have something to lose. It is only natural they should want to, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it in my mind. And I do not apply this thinking just to the current issues surrounding our exit from the EU. Business should be free to lobby government over any issue that is of sufficient importance to them.
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:48
rusty123
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How I miss the good days when we'd all kick back and poke fun at the EU for forcing people into having as many referenda as it took to get the answer it wanted.

How the worm has turned.

When did we become the thing we used to ridicule?
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