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Why there should be a second referendum before March |
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#1 |
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Leafy London
Posts: 20,380
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Why there should be a second referendum before March
The referendum on 23rd June has created more questions than answers. There was a fog of misinformation. The hairshirt gang claim it's a mandate for a highly damaging hard Brexit - and May seems to collude. The remainers are aghast at the prospect, and claim it is no such mandate.
The real truth is that nobody knows. Nobody knows what the majority would choose if it's between single market/FOM or hard Brexit. This is such a colossal issue it will be outrageous if either route is followed without further consultation. The consequences of either route should be spelled out - there would be another fog of misinformation no doubt, but the electorate is a bit more savvy after the 5 months of utter chaos. There should be the following options: 1) Remain in single market, contributions to be made, FOM maintained. 2) Leave the single market, and if no compromise can be achieved, on WTO terms. 3) Leave it totally to the Government's discretion 4) Let's call the whole thing off. It should be STV - voters can list in order of preference. If no option makes over 50%, second choices are redistributed until one does. Absolutely the most democratic way of doing it. The result would be binding. After the conclusion there would be no doubt whatsoever what the majority (of those who vote) want, and they would proceed with genuine public support. If we blindly storm ahead, it will ensure the country remains bitterly divided, with blame being thrown from side to side for the foreseeable future. This proposal would avoid that. I for one, would totally accept the result - even if it were the opposite of what I want. If you truly believe in democracy, then this is the only way to healing this open sore. |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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We're not leaving the single market. And it would be pure insanity to give the idiots who voted for brexit the chance to force us out of the single market in another referendum.
The politicians will sort this out. Most of them are united in wanting to make sure we remain wedded to the single market. For now we just have to put up with this silly punch and judy show and playing to the galleries. But there is no chance the Tories want to go against business interests and pull us out with a hard brexit, Labour is almost universally on the same side, and the Lib Dems also back the position. I'm actually quite calm about what is going to happen in the months ahead, and the markets are starting to behave that way too. I just don't envy Theresa May's challenge of dealing with the hard blue brexiteers on the backbenches. They are a nasty bunch, and they will want to force her out when they see what brexit really means.
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#3 |
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Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,004
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Your 4 questions wouldn't get past any scrutiny. Perhaps try again without questions that a 1st year snowflake at uni might put together to look edgy.
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#4 |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,071
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My questions would be simpler.
1. Do you want to stay in the single market, even if it means keeping FoM? 2. Do you want to abolish FoM, even if it means leaving the single market? We can't vote to stay or leave; we've done that already. |
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#5 |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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Quote:
My questions would be simpler.
1. Do you want to stay in the single market, even if it means keeping FoM? 2. Do you want to abolish FoM, even if it means leaving the single market? We can't vote to stay or leave; we've done that already. |
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#6 |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 17,635
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Trevgo and Aurichie... what wonderful bedfellows you make, although it's nice to see Aurichie "quite calm" about what we face in the coming months.
But Trevgo... do you really think your muddled STV "referendum" with a binding result is fooling anyone? I'll just put it on the list of latest whacko ideas of "how to ultimately stop Brexit from happening while pretending we're actually only concerned about democracy." Anyway, carry on being one of Blair's "insurgents". |
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#7 |
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Leafy London
Posts: 20,380
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Quote:
We're not leaving the single market. And it would be pure insanity to give the idiots who voted for brexit the chance to force us out of the single market in another referendum.
You are placing way too much trust in a Tory government, and I'm surprised at you. This is much, much too important to leave to a hunch that it will be OK in the end. Quote:
Your 4 questions wouldn't get past any scrutiny. Perhaps try again without questions that a 1st year snowflake at uni might put together to look edgy.
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#8 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: 🇬🇧
Posts: 54,239
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Before March
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#9 |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,071
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Quote:
We are not leaving the single market. We are never going to have a referendum on that question. It is a complete non-starter as the economic fallout would be beyond devastating.
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#10 |
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Leafy London
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Quote:
My questions would be simpler.
1. Do you want to stay in the single market, even if it means keeping FoM? 2. Do you want to abolish FoM, even if it means leaving the single market? We can't vote to stay or leave; we've done that already. I would have a remain question, but no matter - do you object to the principle? |
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#11 |
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Quote:
We are not leaving the single market. We are never going to have a referendum on that question. It is a complete non-starter as the economic fallout would be beyond devastating.
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#12 |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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Quote:
So that means we're leaving, then.
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#13 |
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Dark Satanic Mills
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We should have another referendum because the OP thinks that his side will win next time.
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#14 |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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Quote:
I don't object to that. There could be discussion how the questions would be worded (and it would be very important).
I would have a remain question, but no matter - do you object to the principle? Waste of money and time. |
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#15 |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,967
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Oh look, another I can't/won't accept the referendum result thread.
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#16 |
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Quote:
We should have another referendum because the OP thinks that his side will win next time.
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Yes. I happen to think that politicians get paid to sort this stuff out. .
Hoist by your own petard. With an EU flag on top. |
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#17 |
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Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,004
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Quote:
Nice constructive argument there. Sad to break it to you - if you voted Remain (which I doubt), you are automatically as "snowflake". Your questions are ridiculous. Why not try to come up with some decent ones, which don't include staying in. Perhaps then you won't be treated like a drama queen throwing a 6 month tantrum. |
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#18 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,100
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Quote:
Sorry, but you're misguided. All the signs are that we are definitely leaving the single market. All the language is as such. You should have seen Letwin on Newsnight. It's become all "it was said repeatedly during the campaign, so it's definitely what people voted for". There's all this rubbish about cherry picking the single market and paying for the privilege - that is not on offer.
You are placing way too much trust in a Tory government, and I'm surprised at you. This is much, much too important to leave to a hunch that it will be OK in the end. You also shouldn't be surprised that I trust a Tory government given I am a life-long Conservative voter. ![]() I just recognise Theresa May is in a very tough spot right now. She needs to act tough and lose some battles so she can demonstrate to the brexiteers in her own party she at least fought their good fight and lost. It's the only chance she has of remaining prime minister once the hardline brexiteers on the backbenches see what deal we're going for (they won't like it). The Supreme Court appeal is an utter embarrassment how poorly it is going. But I am convinced they want to lose just show it's another fight on their battle card. That can be the only sensible explanation in my mind. But they are doing such a poor job that it's hard to even put this in the battle we fought and lost column right now. |
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#19 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,360
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Quote:
We're not leaving the single market. And it would be pure insanity to give the idiots who voted for brexit the chance to force us out of the single market in another referendum.
The politicians will sort this out. Most of them are united in wanting to make sure we remain wedded to the single market. For now we just have to put up with this silly punch and judy show and playing to the galleries. But there is no chance the Tories want to go against business interests and pull us out with a hard brexit, Labour is almost universally on the same side, and the Lib Dems also back the position. I'm actually quite calm about what is going to happen in the months ahead, and the markets are starting to behave that way too. I just don't envy Theresa May's challenge of dealing with the hard blue brexiteers on the backbenches. They are a nasty bunch, and they will want to force her out when they see what brexit really means. ![]() |
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#20 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,967
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Quote:
It really comes down to a question of whether you believe the Conservatives are going to ignore big business and all the lobbying going on at the moment and pull us out of the single market, or will they remain true to their beliefs and do what is best for business and best for Britain? If they go for the former option then it'll be like turkeys voting for Christmas because they will lose a lot of financial support and backing from people they need.
You also shouldn't be surprised that I trust a Tory government given I am a life-long Conservative voter. ![]() I just recognise Theresa May is in a very tough spot right now. She needs to act tough and lose some battles so she can demonstrate to the brexiteers in her own party she at least fought their good fight and lost. It's the only chance she has of remaining prime minister once the hardline brexiteers on the backbenches see what deal we're going for (they won't like it). The Supreme Court appeal is an utter embarrassment how poorly it is going. But I am convinced they want to lose just show it's another fight on their battle card. That can be the only sensible explanation in my mind. But they are doing such a poor job that it's hard to even put this in the battle we fought and lost column right now. |
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#21 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,071
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Quote:
Precisely. Which is why we should never have had the referendum in the first place. Hoist by your own petard. With an EU flag on top. I demand a Union Flag on top of my petard.
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#22 |
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Dark Satanic Mills
Posts: 4,811
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Don't tar everyone with your infantile brush. The only possible objection from you is because you fear you would be proved to be in the minority.
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#23 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: 🇬🇧
Posts: 54,239
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Quote:
As Remainers currently are. You may not have noticed.
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#24 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,100
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Quote:
So you're happy with "big business" dictating policy? or is it only in this instance that you are?
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#25 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 20,693
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How I miss the good days when we'd all kick back and poke fun at the EU for forcing people into having as many referenda as it took to get the answer it wanted.
How the worm has turned. When did we become the thing we used to ridicule? |
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