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Why there should be a second referendum before March


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Old 07-12-2016, 14:51
Mou Mou Land
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It takes two to divide.
Not a mitosis mother/daughter cell fan then?
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Old 07-12-2016, 14:57
Mr Oleo Strut
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Trevgo and Aurichie... what wonderful bedfellows you make, although it's nice to see Aurichie "quite calm" about what we face in the coming months.
But Trevgo... do you really think your muddled STV "referendum" with a binding result is fooling anyone?
I'll just put it on the list of latest whacko ideas of "how to ultimately stop Brexit from happening while pretending we're actually only concerned about democracy."
Anyway, carry on being one of Blair's "insurgents".
Well done, you two, for drilling down yet again into the utter arrogance and stupidity of the Brexit position. With the increasing exposure of the nakedness and foolishness of the referendum comes the similar spectacular exposure of the deviousness and dictatorship of the May government, who only have contempt for Parliament and those who do not share their blinkered and shifty views. Fortunately, inch by inch, May is being stopped in her tracks and her slippery and discredited ministers and representatives dragged into Parliament, the Courts and before the public, and their duplicity exposed. I don't care if Brexiters are upset, they were daft enough to vote 'out' after a deluge of lies, so tough on them. We are not all empty-headed fools and bigots. Brexit must be dumped into the dustbin of politics, a failed coup, and the whole question of the UK's membership of the EU gone into properly and honestly, and either put to a second referendum or General Election. There is no other way.
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Old 07-12-2016, 14:59
luckylegs
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It takes two to divide.
No it only takes one, an unreasonable one.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:03
aurichie
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Well done, you two, for drilling down yet again into the utter arrogance and stupidity of the Brexit position. With the increasing exposure of the nakedness and foolishness of the referendum comes the similar spectacular exposure of the deviousness and dictatorship of the May government, who only have contempt for Parliament and those who do not share their blinkered and shifty views. Fortunately, inch by inch, May is being stopped in her tracks and her slippery and discredited ministers and representatives dragged into Parliament, the Courts and before the public, and their duplicity exposed. I don't care if Brexiters are upset, they were daft enough to vote 'out' after a deluge of lies, so tough on them. We are not all empty-headed fools and bigots. Brexit must be dumped into the dustbin of politics, a failed coup, and the whole question of the UK's membership of the EU gone into properly and honestly, and either put to a second referendum or General Election. There is no other way.

Brilliant post. This should be pinned to the top of the politics forum and made required reading every day before anyone is allowed to post in here.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:03
NorthernNinny
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Trevgo and Aurichie... what wonderful bedfellows you make, although it's nice to see Aurichie "quite calm" about what we face in the coming months.
But Trevgo... do you really think your muddled STV "referendum" with a binding result is fooling anyone?
I'll just put it on the list of latest whacko ideas of "how to ultimately stop Brexit from happening while pretending we're actually only concerned about democracy."
Anyway, carry on being one of Blair's "insurgents".
It's like the notion that it was only the remainers who voted with the full facts whilst the leavers just staggered up to the voting booth.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:05
aurichie
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whilst the leavers just staggered up to the voting booth.
most of them did (not all of course) with their bigoted view of the world
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:08
Irritable Owl
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There won't be a second referendum.


/thread
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:08
luckylegs
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Well done, you two, for drilling down yet again into the utter arrogance and stupidity of the Brexit position. With the increasing exposure of the nakedness and foolishness of the referendum comes the similar spectacular exposure of the deviousness and dictatorship of the May government, who only have contempt for Parliament and those who do not share their blinkered and shifty views. Fortunately, inch by inch, May is being stopped in her tracks and her slippery and discredited ministers and representatives dragged into Parliament, the Courts and before the public, and their duplicity exposed. I don't care if Brexiters are upset, they were daft enough to vote 'out' after a deluge of lies, so tough on them. We are not all empty-headed fools and bigots. Brexit must be dumped into the dustbin of politics, a failed coup, and the whole question of the UK's membership of the EU gone into properly and honestly, and either put to a second referendum or General Election. There is no other way.
An ill informed rant.

Brilliant post. This should be pinned to the top of the politics forum and made required reading every day before anyone is allowed to post in here.
And and an ill informed agreement.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:09
batdude_uk1
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Brilliant post. This should be pinned to the top of the politics forum and made required reading every day before anyone is allowed to post in here.
Far from it, it is a post of blinding arrogance, and I agree it should be required reading, so that people don't post utter drivel such as that!
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:10
batdude_uk1
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most of them did (not all of course) with their bigoted view of the world
You could equally claim the same of the people whom wished to remain.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:11
luckylegs
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Brilliant post. This should be pinned to the top of the politics forum and made required reading every day before anyone is allowed to post in here.
There are some people still waiting for your opinion polls.

On this thread

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...5#post84818805
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:12
NorthernNinny
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most of them did (not all of course) with their bigoted view of the world
Nothing like making sweeping generalisations about 52 percent of the electorate by those who are intolerant of anyone who does not agree with them.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:14
NorthernNinny
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Brilliant post. This should be pinned to the top of the politics forum and made required reading every day before anyone is allowed to post in here.
Do you ever get dizzy from that pedestal you sit on?
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:15
paulschapman
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We are not leaving the single market. We are never going to have a referendum on that question. It is a complete non-starter as the economic fallout would be beyond devastating.
We are not a member of the EEA - the EU is, and that is where our membership of it now resides. We were but left it in 1973 when we joined the EEC. Ergo when we leave the EU, we will no longer be in the EEA.

We could (and probably should) rejoin at the earliest opportunity once we have left the EU however that will mean accepting FoM and other rules which are part of the treaty obligations between the EU and EAA.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:20
batdude_uk1
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Nothing like making sweeping generalisations about 52 percent of the electorate by those who are intolerant of anyone who does not agree with them.
Do you ever get dizzy from that pedestal you sit on?
Now these posts should be made stickies, and be required reading everyone in the politics forum!

I agree with you Nin!
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:23
Thor_Noggsson
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The referendum on 23rd June has created more questions than answers. There was a fog of misinformation. The hairshirt gang claim it's a mandate for a highly damaging hard Brexit - and May seems to collude. The remainers are aghast at the prospect, and claim it is no such mandate.

The real truth is that nobody knows. Nobody knows what the majority would choose if it's between single market/FOM or hard Brexit. This is such a colossal issue it will be outrageous if either route is followed without further consultation. The consequences of either route should be spelled out - there would be another fog of misinformation no doubt, but the electorate is a bit more savvy after the 5 months of utter chaos.

There should be the following options:

1) Remain in single market, contributions to be made, FOM maintained.
2) Leave the single market, and if no compromise can be achieved, on WTO terms.
3) Leave it totally to the Government's discretion
4) Let's call the whole thing off.

It should be STV - voters can list in order of preference. If no option makes over 50%, second choices are redistributed until one does. Absolutely the most democratic way of doing it. The result would be binding. After the conclusion there would be no doubt whatsoever what the majority (of those who vote) want, and they would proceed with genuine public support.

If we blindly storm ahead, it will ensure the country remains bitterly divided, with blame being thrown from side to side for the foreseeable future. This proposal would avoid that. I for one, would totally accept the result - even if it were the opposite of what I want. If you truly believe in democracy, then this is the only way to healing this open sore.
You haven't a hope in hell of getting another referendum on this.
From the point of view of the powers that be, we got it wrong on June 23rd and as a result it will be a very long time before the electorate of this country is trusted with another referendum.
I suspect we only got this one because no one thought leave could win.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:27
Thor_Noggsson
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It really comes down to a question of whether you believe the Conservatives are going to ignore big business and all the lobbying going on at the moment and pull us out of the single market, or will they remain true to their beliefs and do what is best for business and best for Britain? If they go for the former option then it'll be like turkeys voting for Christmas because they will lose a lot of financial support and backing from people they need.

You also shouldn't be surprised that I trust a Tory government given I am a life-long Conservative voter.

I just recognise Theresa May is in a very tough spot right now. She needs to act tough and lose some battles so she can demonstrate to the brexiteers in her own party she at least fought their good fight and lost. It's the only chance she has of remaining prime minister once the hardline brexiteers on the backbenches see what deal we're going for (they won't like it).

The Supreme Court appeal is an utter embarrassment how poorly it is going. But I am convinced they want to lose just show it's another fight on their battle card. That can be the only sensible explanation in my mind. But they are doing such a poor job that it's hard to even put this in the battle we fought and lost column right now.
We may not have any option but to exit the single market.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:30
The_Bonobo
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Which bit of the following did you not understand?

'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union, or leave the European Union?'

You would have to be a bit thick not to understand that would you not?
While the overall situation is obviously complex, I agree that the specific vote was simple (too simple arguably but that is a separate point).

This is why it is confusing to see comments like "everyone knows voting leave meant also leaving the Single Market", "leaving the EU but keeping X things in place means EU-lite so contradicts the result", or "people voted leave to stop FOM so that must be stopped".

None of those things were on the ballot paper. That is very easy to understand.

When the Lib Dems reversed their position on tuition fees their MPs didn't immediately lose their seats because the ballot paper didn't mention tuition fees. It meant promises were broken, and that voters had believed their vote may lead to certain outcomes. The actual vote was for X candidate. Nothing more. So the MPs kept their seats (until the next election obviously).

Regardless of the EU ref campaigners also making a variety of claims or pledges at different times, the vote was just about EU membership. Nothing more.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:31
batdude_uk1
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We had a referendum, and we got a conclusive result, why on earth can people not see this??

Why the calls for yet another one on the very same topic, madness!
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:35
Aurora13
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The referendum on 23rd June has created more questions than answers. There was a fog of misinformation. The hairshirt gang claim it's a mandate for a highly damaging hard Brexit - and May seems to collude. The remainers are aghast at the prospect, and claim it is no such mandate.

The real truth is that nobody knows. Nobody knows what the majority would choose if it's between single market/FOM or hard Brexit. This is such a colossal issue it will be outrageous if either route is followed without further consultation. The consequences of either route should be spelled out - there would be another fog of misinformation no doubt, but the electorate is a bit more savvy after the 5 months of utter chaos.

There should be the following options:

1) Remain in single market, contributions to be made, FOM maintained.
2) Leave the single market, and if no compromise can be achieved, on WTO terms.
3) Leave it totally to the Government's discretion
4) Let's call the whole thing off.

It should be STV - voters can list in order of preference. If no option makes over 50%, second choices are redistributed until one does. Absolutely the most democratic way of doing it. The result would be binding. After the conclusion there would be no doubt whatsoever what the majority (of those who vote) want, and they would proceed with genuine public support.

If we blindly storm ahead, it will ensure the country remains bitterly divided, with blame being thrown from side to side for the foreseeable future. This proposal would avoid that. I for one, would totally accept the result - even if it were the opposite of what I want. If you truly believe in democracy, then this is the only way to healing this open sore.
The one definite result of referendum is that governments will not use referendums. How a decision so complex and critical got dumbed down to such an extent it was more X Factor than serious constitutional debate. We elect our representatives who understand the issues to make decisions. That is how it has been for centuries.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:37
jjwales
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We had a referendum, and we got a conclusive result, why on earth can people not see this??

Why the calls for yet another one on the very same topic, madness!
It wouldn't be on the same topic though. It would be on whether to accept a particular deal we'd made with the EU. If we did have one, I would want it to be on whether to accept that deal, or leave the EU without any deal. I wouldn't want another Leave/Remain choice.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:39
Aneechik
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There should be another referendum when the deal is on the table, not before.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:43
batdude_uk1
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It wouldn't be on the same topic though. It would be on whether to accept a particular deal we'd made with the EU. If we did have one, I would want it to be on whether to accept that deal, or leave the EU without any deal. I wouldn't want another Leave/Remain choice.
You are just adding more words, to what is essentially still the same question as what has already been answered.

It just seems to be people wanting another referendum only because the results didn't go the way that they wished/hoped/expected.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:43
batdude_uk1
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There should be another referendum when the deal is on the table, not before.
No, we have had our say, and the answer was an emphatic one.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:45
SULLA
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The remain people carefully spelt out what a vote to leave would mean..

The people voted to leave.

It is the job of the government to get on with it.

It is the job of MPs to support the result.
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