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Why there should be a second referendum before March


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Old 07-12-2016, 15:47
Aneechik
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No, we have had our say, and the answer was an emphatic one.
But we'd have no way of knowing whether the public agree or disagree with the deal the government is going to take.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:48
Clarisse76
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Well done, you two, for drilling down yet again into the utter arrogance and stupidity of the Brexit position. With the increasing exposure of the nakedness and foolishness of the referendum comes the similar spectacular exposure of the deviousness and dictatorship of the May government, who only have contempt for Parliament and those who do not share their blinkered and shifty views. Fortunately, inch by inch, May is being stopped in her tracks and her slippery and discredited ministers and representatives dragged into Parliament, the Courts and before the public, and their duplicity exposed. I don't care if Brexiters are upset, they were daft enough to vote 'out' after a deluge of lies, so tough on them. We are not all empty-headed fools and bigots. Brexit must be dumped into the dustbin of politics, a failed coup, and the whole question of the UK's membership of the EU gone into properly and honestly, and either put to a second referendum or General Election. There is no other way.
Verily, we are standing before a new dawn. A golden era heralded in by an internet entity named after a bit of aeroplane posting in a minor politics forum. I prostrate myself in awe and wonderment! Hail the brave new world!
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:51
NorthernNinny
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We had a referendum, and we got a conclusive result, why on earth can people not see this??

Why the calls for yet another one on the very same topic, madness!
We have to keep going until the minority vote becomes the majority vote.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:54
Jayceef1
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Typical pro EU theme

Vote until we get the answer we want.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:55
Irritable Owl
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We have to keep going until the minority vote becomes the majority vote.
Ah, but when we vote the other way, I will demand another referendum unti we vote back the first way.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:56
NorthernNinny
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Ah, but when we vote the other way, I will demand another referendum unti we vote back the first way.
Me too.
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Old 07-12-2016, 15:58
Jayceef1
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Ah, but when we vote the other way, I will demand another referendum unti we vote back the first way.
Ahhh but that's not the "right" answer. Once they get the "right" answer there will be no further referenda.
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:00
nomad2king
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For it to be anything but a nonsensical vote, only those who voted Leave should be able to vote. There is no way that could work. The reason is that if in the 2nd vote somebody voted "No", what did they vote for? Not to Leave whatever the proposal, or Not to Leave under the specified proposal.
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:04
NorthernNinny
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Ahhh but that's not the "right" answer. Once they get the "right" answer there will be no further referenda.
Then all the uneducated/bigots/traitors like me can go and crawl back under our rocks never to squeak again.
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:16
Aurora13
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For it to be anything but a nonsensical vote, only those who voted Leave should be able to vote. There is no way that could work. The reason is that if in the 2nd vote somebody voted "No", what did they vote for? Not to Leave whatever the proposal, or Not to Leave under the specified proposal.
That will be clarified by a court case in ECJ over next two years. If they say article 50 can be untriggered then it will be accept the exit deal or stay in EU.

In event it comes to that decision it won't be another referendum it will be a GE. You will have:

Stay in EU - SNP / Lib Dems

Accept the negotiated deal - Tories

Reject deal and fall out of EU - UKIP

Labour it's going to depend on the deal negotiated.
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:21
batdude_uk1
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Then all the uneducated/bigots/traitors like me can go and crawl back under our rocks never to squeak again.
Any room for me as well under your rock, or do I have to get my own?
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:21
bass55
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The "second referendum" thing is only put forward by people who want to reverse the outcome of the first one. It's the ultra-Remainers last hope that we'll cave in and vote to stay after all. It's standard EU operating procedure: hold a vote as many times as it takes to get the result that you want. The whole thing is so transparent and really nobody is falling for it.
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:32
Resonance
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We are not leaving the single market. We are never going to have a referendum on that question. It is a complete non-starter as the economic fallout would be beyond devastating.
Thanks aurichie. I was worried we'd be staying in the single market. I now feel extremely reassured
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Old 07-12-2016, 17:05
trevgo
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How sadly predictable.

The usual mob making all sorts of ridiculous claims. They can say whatever they like but they do NOT know the preferences of 17 million leave voters. I don't expect such insight or sophistication, but any rational person can see it. Polling evidence shows an absolutely overwhelming majority want to remain in the single market. Perhaps they're wrong. Perhaps they're not. 90% is somewhat outside the margin of error, even in these times.

What on earth are they scared of? If the public mood is as they say, it would be a walk in the park. The truth is that they do know, and are terrified their vision of Brexit would be shown as the minority interest it is.

A referendum on the final deal is no good. If the public rejects it, then what is the alternative? A50 is irrevocable. We can't say "sorry - we didn't realise you'd be so hardball - can we forget all about it please?".

Anyone who pretends there is a cut and dried consensus is a blatant liar. Nobody - not they or I know what the real feeling of the country is. The only way to prove it is to ask it.
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Old 07-12-2016, 17:09
MargMck
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What's starting to get on my nerves is the tiny minority of my 48% who are trying to speak for the rest of us; we want this, we want that, the 48% should be heard on this, should be heard on that. They don't speak for me, they didn't ask my opinion they just boldly proclaim what my 48% want, just like they proclaimed what the 52% wanted and why they wanted it.
You're right of course. It's fascinating that they can pompously claim to be the all-knowing Billy Big Bullocks of THE 48%, make demands and announce what is now acceptable to all those who back in June considered the choices and then came down on the side of Remain. Their personal wish lists, presented as representing people like you, count for nowt.
And, as you say, we also had to listen to their pronouncements on those of us who voted in the opposite direction. If I know very well that many other Brexit voters prioritised sovereignty (my issue) lower down the list when choosing to Leave, why is it that some Remainers think they speak for all who voted Remain, especially those who now accept the result with good grace?
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Old 07-12-2016, 17:17
Thor_Noggsson
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How sadly predictable.

The usual mob making all sorts of ridiculous claims. They can say whatever they like but they do NOT know the preferences of 17 million leave voters. I don't expect such insight or sophistication, but any rational person can see it. Polling evidence shows an absolutely overwhelming majority want to remain in the single market. Perhaps they're wrong. Perhaps they're not. 90% is somewhat outside the margin of error, even in these times.

What on earth are they scared of? If the public mood is as they say, it would be a walk in the park. The truth is that they do know, and are terrified their vision of Brexit would be shown as the minority interest it is.

A referendum on the final deal is no good. If the public rejects it, then what is the alternative? A50 is irrevocable. We can't say "sorry - we didn't realise you'd be so hardball - can we forget all about it please?".

Anyone who pretends there is a cut and dried consensus is a blatant liar. Nobody - not they or I know what the real feeling of the country is. The only way to prove it is to ask it.
Trev, the powers that be will not trust us with another referendum because, from their point of view, we got it wrong in June.

Your best bet is to chill out and go with the flow.
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Old 07-12-2016, 17:21
Jayceef1
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Any room for me as well under your rock, or do I have to get my own?
We're gonna need a bigger rock!!
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Old 07-12-2016, 17:22
jjwales
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You are just adding more words, to what is essentially still the same question as what has already been answered.
No it isn't, because the only options I would want in a new referendum (if we had to have one, which is unlikely) are both Leave options.

It just seems to be people wanting another referendum only because the results didn't go the way that they wished/hoped/expected.
Well, yes, that's hardly surprising!
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Old 07-12-2016, 17:23
jjwales
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We have to keep going until the minority vote becomes the majority vote.
As I've already said, it wouldn't be on the same topic. And there is no question of "keep going".
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Old 07-12-2016, 17:34
luckylegs
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How sadly predictable.

The usual mob making all sorts of ridiculous claims. They can say whatever they like but they do NOT know the preferences of 17 million leave voters. I don't expect such insight or sophistication, but any rational person can see it. Polling evidence shows an absolutely overwhelming majority want to remain in the single market. Perhaps they're wrong. Perhaps they're not. 90% is somewhat outside the margin of error, even in these times.

What on earth are they scared of? If the public mood is as they say, it would be a walk in the park. The truth is that they do know, and are terrified their vision of Brexit would be shown as the minority interest it is.

A referendum on the final deal is no good. If the public rejects it, then what is the alternative? A50 is irrevocable. We can't say "sorry - we didn't realise you'd be so hardball - can we forget all about it please?".

Anyone who pretends there is a cut and dried consensus is a blatant liar. Nobody - not they or I know what the real feeling of the country is. The only way to prove it is to ask it.
I think your claims are more ridiculous and quite frankly childish and a tantrum.
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Old 07-12-2016, 17:36
luckylegs
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We're gonna need a bigger rock!!
We sure are - two of my friends who voted Remain are now leavers they are embarrassed and disgusted at the way the minority of the 48% have conducted themselves since the 23rd June.
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Old 07-12-2016, 17:39
skp20040
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The referendum on 23rd June has created more questions than answers. There was a fog of misinformation. The hairshirt gang claim it's a mandate for a highly damaging hard Brexit - and May seems to collude. The remainers are aghast at the prospect, and claim it is no such mandate.

The real truth is that nobody knows. Nobody knows what the majority would choose if it's between single market/FOM or hard Brexit. This is such a colossal issue it will be outrageous if either route is followed without further consultation. The consequences of either route should be spelled out - there would be another fog of misinformation no doubt, but the electorate is a bit more savvy after the 5 months of utter chaos.

There should be the following options:

1) Remain in single market, contributions to be made, FOM maintained.
2) Leave the single market, and if no compromise can be achieved, on WTO terms.
3) Leave it totally to the Government's discretion
4) Let's call the whole thing off.

It should be STV - voters can list in order of preference. If no option makes over 50%, second choices are redistributed until one does. Absolutely the most democratic way of doing it. The result would be binding. After the conclusion there would be no doubt whatsoever what the majority (of those who vote) want, and they would proceed with genuine public support.

If we blindly storm ahead, it will ensure the country remains bitterly divided, with blame being thrown from side to side for the foreseeable future. This proposal would avoid that. I for one, would totally accept the result - even if it were the opposite of what I want. If you truly believe in democracy, then this is the only way to healing this open sore.
So you would totally accept the vote as long as you get a second vote to try and overturn the result of the first one where you disagree with the democratic result, and you will accept it this time as long as they change the format and put lots of questions in which basically you hope will muddy the waters and change the result.
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Old 07-12-2016, 17:52
bass55
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The likes of Tim Farron, Anna Soubry, and other hardcore Remainers are hoping that they can force the Government to reveal its entire strategy for the negotiations, thereby sabotaging the entire process and ensuring we get a crap deal. Said crap deal will be put to a referendum and we'll end up staying in. This is why any talk of a second referendum "on the terms of Brexit" is a complete sideshow; it's a blatant tactic to reverse the first one and ensure Brexit doesn't happen.
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Old 07-12-2016, 17:54
GibsonSG
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Your 4 questions wouldn't get past any scrutiny. Perhaps try again without questions that a 1st year snowflake at uni might put together to look edgy.
In your opinion! They seem to be reasonable to me.
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Old 07-12-2016, 17:54
The_Bonobo
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Ah, but when we vote the other way, I will demand another referendum unti we vote back the first way.
Which, ironically, is exactly what would have been suggested if remain had won in the first place.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36306681

You may not like people continuing to make their case but let's not deny that it would have been the same if things had been reversed. Arguably more so, because there would be calls for a repeat of the same referendum with people eagerly checking for signs of shifts in opinion from the polls. Unless remain won with 65%+ of the vote it is very likely that things would not be considered "decided". Just like after the Scottish indy ref.

Incidentally I am not calling for a new referendum in any form. I am just clarifying the reality of this situation. Post-truth indeed!
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