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Why there should be a second referendum before March |
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#101 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Parliment Sq waving a banner
Posts: 3,289
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Which, ironically, is exactly what would have been suggested if remain had won in the first place.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36306681 You may not like people continuing to make their case but let's not deny that it would have been the same if things had been reversed. Arguably more so, because there would be calls for a repeat of the same referendum with people eagerly checking for signs of shifts in opinion from the polls. Unless remain won with 65%+ of the vote it is very likely that things would not be considered "decided". Just like after the Scottish indy ref. Incidentally I am not calling for a new referendum in any form. I am just clarifying the reality of this situation. Post-truth indeed! But hey not 6 months after. |
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#102 |
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 216
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How sadly predictable.
The usual mob making all sorts of ridiculous claims. They can say whatever they like but they do NOT know the preferences of 17 million leave voters. I don't expect such insight or sophistication, but any rational person can see it. Polling evidence shows an absolutely overwhelming majority want to remain in the single market. Perhaps they're wrong. Perhaps they're not. 90% is somewhat outside the margin of error, even in these times. What on earth are they scared of? If the public mood is as they say, it would be a walk in the park. The truth is that they do know, and are terrified their vision of Brexit would be shown as the minority interest it is. A referendum on the final deal is no good. If the public rejects it, then what is the alternative? A50 is irrevocable. We can't say "sorry - we didn't realise you'd be so hardball - can we forget all about it please?". Anyone who pretends there is a cut and dried consensus is a blatant liar. Nobody - not they or I know what the real feeling of the country is. The only way to prove it is to ask it. |
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#103 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,887
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There should be the following options:
1) Remain in single market, contributions to be made, FOM maintained. 2) Leave the single market, and if no compromise can be achieved, on WTO terms. 3) Leave it totally to the Government's discretion 4) Let's call the whole thing off. “What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the single market.” In fact, he said it over and over again. We don't need a referendum on this as it was clearly stated what the implication of a Brexit vote was. Frankly, I'd argue that it's more valid to suggest a second referendum in the event of a soft Brexit than a full Brexit as that would be something different to voter expectations of leaving the EU and leaving the single market. |
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#104 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,311
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e Quote:
Verily, we are standing before a new dawn. A golden era heralded in by an internet entity named after a bit of aeroplane posting in a minor politics forum. I prostrate myself in awe and wonderment! Hail the brave new world!
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#105 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,650
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Quote:
e
Fame at last! And for you - a Damascene conversion on the road to chaos. You will not regret it! |
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#106 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Destination: Hard Brexit
Posts: 6,364
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The referendum on 23rd June has created more questions than answers. There was a fog of misinformation. The hairshirt gang claim it's a mandate for a highly damaging hard Brexit - and May seems to collude. The remainers are aghast at the prospect, and claim it is no such mandate.
The real truth is that nobody knows. Nobody knows what the majority would choose if it's between single market/FOM or hard Brexit. This is such a colossal issue it will be outrageous if either route is followed without further consultation. The consequences of either route should be spelled out - there would be another fog of misinformation no doubt, but the electorate is a bit more savvy after the 5 months of utter chaos. There should be the following options: 1) Remain in single market, contributions to be made, FOM maintained. 2) Leave the single market, and if no compromise can be achieved, on WTO terms. 3) Leave it totally to the Government's discretion 4) Let's call the whole thing off. It should be STV - voters can list in order of preference. If no option makes over 50%, second choices are redistributed until one does. Absolutely the most democratic way of doing it. The result would be binding. After the conclusion there would be no doubt whatsoever what the majority (of those who vote) want, and they would proceed with genuine public support. If we blindly storm ahead, it will ensure the country remains bitterly divided, with blame being thrown from side to side for the foreseeable future. This proposal would avoid that. I for one, would totally accept the result - even if it were the opposite of what I want. If you truly believe in democracy, then this is the only way to healing this open sore. |
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#107 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,246
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No to a 2nd referendum it was nasty, diverse and the quality of debate poor. The public have decided the binary choice, now it up to parliament to fill in the details.
I would prefer that Parliament makes the final decision in 2019 or 2020 whenever it is on the final deal. If it a crap deal for Britain I hope that MP's will tell May to try again and renegotiate. |
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#108 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,622
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No to a 2nd referendum it was nasty, diverse and the quality of debate poor. The public have decided the binary choice, now it up to parliament to fill in the details.
I would prefer that Parliament makes the final decision in 2019 or 2020 whenever it is on the final deal. If it a crap deal for Britain I hope that MP's will tell May to try again and renegotiate. |
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#109 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 20,693
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There should be another referendum when the deal is on the table, not before.
48% didn't want to leave in the first place so it's likely they'd reject whatever was on the table. It would be nigh on impossible for the 52% to be in full agreement with whatever was offered (the old "you can't please all of the people all of the time" scenario) so some of those would also reject it Let's say for the sake of argument we had one and the deal was rejected. Then what happens? |
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#110 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 20,693
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Quote:
No to a 2nd referendum it was nasty, diverse and the quality of debate poor. The public have decided the binary choice, now it up to parliament to fill in the details.
I would prefer that Parliament makes the final decision in 2019 or 2020 whenever it is on the final deal. If it a crap deal for Britain I hope that MP's will tell May to try again and renegotiate. |
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#111 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,246
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Presumably A50 would have run its course by then so what happens in the interim while they are trying to thrash out another deal?
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#112 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,045
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I really do not understand you want a referendum when its the EUs decision...
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#113 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: 🇬🇧
Posts: 54,239
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Ask for an extension and remain part of the EU until a deal is reached. Negotiate and compromise.
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#114 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,246
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An extension can only be granted if all other EU nations agree to it,which is by no means a certainty.
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#115 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 20,693
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Ask for an extension and remain part of the EU until a deal is reached. Negotiate and compromise.
I can't see all 27 members agreeing to grant us an extension to something that comes with a use by date by design. It kinda makes a mockery of having the thing in the first place if that were to happen. |
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#116 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Obviously a sensible extension, not a year, If the deal is not favourable to them as well I would hope that they would grant it. Anyway hypothetical scenario.
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#117 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,246
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And what if they didn't grant an extension??
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#118 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 34,224
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Quote:
The referendum on 23rd June has created more questions than answers. There was a fog of misinformation. The hairshirt gang claim it's a mandate for a highly damaging hard Brexit - and May seems to collude. The remainers are aghast at the prospect, and claim it is no such mandate.
The real truth is that nobody knows. Nobody knows what the majority would choose if it's between single market/FOM or hard Brexit. This is such a colossal issue it will be outrageous if either route is followed without further consultation. The consequences of either route should be spelled out - there would be another fog of misinformation no doubt, but the electorate is a bit more savvy after the 5 months of utter chaos. There should be the following options: 1) Remain in single market, contributions to be made, FOM maintained. 2) Leave the single market, and if no compromise can be achieved, on WTO terms. 3) Leave it totally to the Government's discretion 4) Let's call the whole thing off. It should be STV - voters can list in order of preference. If no option makes over 50%, second choices are redistributed until one does. Absolutely the most democratic way of doing it. The result would be binding. After the conclusion there would be no doubt whatsoever what the majority (of those who vote) want, and they would proceed with genuine public support. If we blindly storm ahead, it will ensure the country remains bitterly divided, with blame being thrown from side to side for the foreseeable future. This proposal would avoid that. I for one, would totally accept the result - even if it were the opposite of what I want. If you truly believe in democracy, then this is the only way to healing this open sore. Its totally impractical, as you can't have a referendum with 4 choices - none would have a majority. Staying would have the biggest vote. So you would be aiming to be in and out, or one of them - pending on which referendum you fancied.. And you would still have no idea which option most people wanted, of the ones that would emerge in negotiation. Its the sort of thing, the Liberals may well suggest. You can't have a set requirement to negotiate - because the opponent in the negotiation will just demand more, and more, for what you have to get. Its a suicidal negotiating strategy. You can't set a requirement for government to get - because you then have nowhere to go - when the Europeans say non. The negotiation would then end, and you would need another referendum where to go next. Meanwhile, the economy would be trashed. |
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#119 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 328
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Thankfully most in fact id say 99% of all those who voted to remain are not so utterly obsessed with trying to change the result, a few wingers on here and the useless voids like Farron are fast becoming Violet Elizabeth Bott clones..
As someone who voted to remain I get a lot of abuse from the usual suspects for my decision but strangely enough none of them have been Brexit supporters, a few facts the OP and his alter ego Aurichie need to get into his mind are There is no second referendum. We lost so stop making it now about how you are going to be affected, give a damn for everyone else for a change. The sovereign elected Parliament has taken on the Labour amendment so the process is going to happen. Constantly winding up Brexit supporters on here is getting the debate nowhere. And while I'm still here Trevor care to give the thread a opinion on the rumours that some of the threats to Millar were actually done by obsessed remainers in order to channel sympathy for the Remain cause. |
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#120 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 34,224
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Quote:
If there was a second vote (I don't think there should be)... then I agree with the first three options, but there must not EVER be a "Remain" option on future questions asked. We voted leave and leave we must.
The last referendum was on accepting the newly renegotiated relationship - logically there should be one on the new relationship. The Leave prospectus was a tissue of lies - people ought to make a judgement on the actuality, As what we end up with will be worse for most people, than the status quo now - voters logically ought to be able to vote for the best option. its ridiculous to have the country's foreign policy forever based, decisively, on the views of a lot of 70 and 80 year olds , who will soon be dead . its inevitable that the issue will be revisited , as the Leave majority literally dies off. But The referendum is practically impossible when voters will want the new deal, and more, and less, of something, or the pre June 24 situation. And its politically impossible to have large numbers of angry Leave voters rattling around the political system, denying any government a majority, and drifting more and more to the fascist right. The second referendum will come when the older generation of leave voters has gone and Leave is a proven disaster. That will take time. And the deal then will be worse than the June 23 one. |
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#121 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 34,224
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Quote:
David Cameron made the following statement during the referendum campaign:
“What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the single market.” In fact, he said it over and over again. We don't need a referendum on this as it was clearly stated what the implication of a Brexit vote was. Frankly, I'd argue that it's more valid to suggest a second referendum in the event of a soft Brexit than a full Brexit as that would be something different to voter expectations of leaving the EU and leaving the single market. I agree Leave voters should have believed Cameron then, not now, , but they didn't. Boris is where he is now, precisely to come along and explain that, when he said we could have our cake and eat it, he was wrong Or he will avoid apologizing - by blaming the foreigners for being unexpectedly silly and not acting in their own economic interests. May isn't going to take the blame for Leave's lies turning out to be lies, or Leave voters who couldn't follow what was actually on offer, expecting something they won't get. Davis and Johnson are going to have a lot of explaining to do - why we get what we get, and why its wonderful and what they promised, even if some voters don't think it is. Nor is May going to be responsible for a bad deal - that may follow automatically from meeting the Leave voter's demand for immigration controls .The Europeans control what we get - not her. The government is going to have to blame the foreigners for what follows from immigration control , and Leave voters are going to have to have it explained to them , repeatedly , that its their insistence on immigration control, that will be making them even poorer. |
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#122 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,071
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Ask for an extension and remain part of the EU until a deal is reached. Negotiate and compromise.
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#123 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Devon
Posts: 47,995
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Or in other words trevgo in desperate bid to overturn the first referendum and remain in the EU by splitting the leave vote.
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#124 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: London
Posts: 9,406
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Quote:
Its totally impractical, as you can't have a referendum with 4 choices - none would have a majority. Staying would have the biggest vote.
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#125 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 25,437
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Quote:
Its totally impractical, as you can't have a referendum with 4 choices - none would have a majority.
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