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Brexiteers : more aggressive than Remainers ?
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Zeropoint1
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by starry_rune:
“Wake up you bunch of *****

This situation has been created specifically to point attention at immigrants instead of the government and banks, and to create a sense of divide. Remain or brexit things would be much the same. Periods of wealth and periods of poor. All this has done is take attention away from the governement to stop us collectively bargaining with them to share out the billions and billions and billions a bit more fairly.

Strength in unity.”

Hmm, why was the YouTube link deleted?

Could it be because it didn't say the Roschilds were completely evil with all the money?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GWKeqDiPNts
Doctor_Wibble
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by starry_rune:
“Wake up you bunch of *****

This situation has been created specifically to point attention at immigrants instead of the government and banks, and to create a sense of divide. [...].”

First and foremost, shove the attitude.

Secondly, this is the whole point of brexit, by completely destroying the economy (see the politics forum, we are told this repeatedly in no uncertain terms) we will as a direct consequence be destroying the banks, and financial institutions, and the assets of the wealthy elite, and once that's done we can re-join the egalitarian utopia of the EU where we can all enjoy the same privileged existence as our glorious soon to be on sabbatical EU overlords.

Less sarcastically (sorry)
Originally Posted by molliepops:
“... Once out it will become very evident how weak many of our politicians are and how many are working for themselves rather than us. They will have no where to hide.”

That's certainly an interesting idea - there's no question that a fair few just act as policy conduits, and there's plenty of 'EU regulations' (summarised turn of phrase) that have been unnecessarily re-written or adjusted by people who are supposed to act in the country's interest, and there's a load that got rubber-stamped without anyone bothering to check the consequences...

And half the trouble with the UK/EU relationship is that we've never been particularly good at being a member of the EU, never mind them having to put up with us.
anne_666
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by Justin Aerial:
“"Originally Posted by Bless You
The most vitriol and aggression I've witnessed throughout this entire process so far has come from people who voted to remain! I've been completely flummoxed by it."




I`ve thought more about this question and answer, and I think there`s even more to it. I think part of it is intense frustration at the how this all came about :

If Ed Miliband hadn`t won the Labour leadership all those yeas ago, and his brother had, it`s pretty certain that the Tories wouldn`t have got an overall majority = no referendum. Let`s remember that Labour leadership vote was on a knife edge.....

If the Lib Dems hadn`t supported tuition fees it`s arguable they`d have lost fewer seats and thus the Tories wouldn`t have got an overall majority = no referendum.

If Corbyn hadn`t won the Labour leadership it`s arguable that the referendum result would have been different. I think everyone agrees his campaigning, he was the leader of the opposition remember, was half hearted at best. Let`s remember that he only made it onto the final list of candidates because some MPs (who didn`t even support him) thought "there should be a debate". I`ll bet they kick themselves every day, probably more than once.....

This ones more debatable, but possible ! If Boris "I want to be Tory leader" Johnson hadn`t been a regular on HIGNFY he may never have even become London Mayor, never mind a leading campaigner for Leave. Portillo is the best example of what good TV coverage does for a politicians popularity, he used to be one of the most unpopular politicians around, now look at him !.

Let`s remember, the result was close. I really feel this was a one off, but, and this is even more frustrating, unlike a General Election there`s probably no chance for a reversal. In fact, even more galling, and ironic, not to say illogical, "Leave" trumpet from every rooftop that another referendum under any circumstances would be undemocratic....”

How about if the UK hadn't voted to remain in the Common Market in 1975? How far back would you like to go in not dealing with reality? No-one's forgotten the result was close and Brexit won, simple.
Reality, there was never going to be a chance of reversal just as there wasn't in 1975.

If dealing with reality isn't your thing, your "intense frustration" is hardly surprising.
RobinOfLoxley
09-12-2016
Well I think I agree with Sisters and Brothers here (although there's no need for expletives or pejoratives *****, whatever that was)

Brexit is likely to succeed, and that's fine, if it really is the will of the people.

But we should really have gone in hard to the EU over last years and forced reform.
Zeropoint1
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by RobinOfLoxley:
“Well I think I agree with Sisters and Brothers here (although there's no need for expletives or pejoratives *****, whatever that was)

Brexit is likely to succeed, and that's fine, if it really is the will of the people.

But we should really have gone in hard to the EU over last years and forced reform.”

The EU have made it quite clear they have no intention of reforming. Certainly the main vested interest of the French has seen to that.

How many millions are wasted relocating buildings every month just to keep the French happy?

They have no intention of touching the CAP, apart from when they said they would look at it if Blair gave up part of Britain's rebate. Which they changed their minds about as soon as possible!
vintage_girl
09-12-2016
I don't think it's that easy to generalise. Among my friends and colleagues most voted Reman but there were a few who voted Leave and I can't say they're particularly aggressive or racist types (either that or they just hide it really well). I find most of the aggression to be online. On one discussion, which wasn't even about the referendum, I got told by a hardcore Brexiteer that I shouldn't be in the UK and that I'm a foreigner so I don't belong here (I've lived in the UK most of my life and am a British citizen). On the other hand some of my friends called Leavers all sorts of names in Facebook statuses so....yeah it's been quite unpleasant recently.
Justin Aerial
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by Ben_Copland:
“The remainers were just throwing garbage out there, I found more sense in the reasons to leave, they didn't seem like a bunch of kids, making things up, almost desperately.”

Funnily enough I thought that about the Leave campaign, only they were making even more up weren`t they ? Which, in fact, they still are doing.
Justin Aerial
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by vintage_girl:
“I don't think it's that easy to generalise. Among my friends and colleagues most voted Reman but there were a few who voted Leave and I can't say they're particularly aggressive or racist types (either that or they just hide it really well). I find most of the aggression to be online. On one discussion, which wasn't even about the referendum, I got told by a hardcore Brexiteer that I shouldn't be in the UK and that I'm a foreigner so I don't belong here (I've lived in the UK most of my life and am a British citizen). On the other hand some of my friends called Leavers all sorts of names in Facebook statuses so....yeah it's been quite unpleasant recently.”

Oh I agree with you, many people say things Online they`d never say face to face. Or I hope that`s true, because if it isn`t they must be very unpleasant people, and I`ve never met anyone like that.
I never said all, or even most Leavers were aggressive, just a higher percentage. As I said on the opener, if the situation was reversed would the equivalent of Gina Miller be going into court with bodyguards ? I doubt it. And would any of the Remain campaign leaders be saying if the Remain vote is overturned (even by another referendum) "there`ll be riots on the streets ?" I think not.
Justin Aerial
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by anne_666:
“How about if the UK hadn't voted to remain in the Common Market in 1975? How far back would you like to go in not dealing with reality? No-one's forgotten the result was close and Brexit won, simple.
Reality, there was never going to be a chance of reversal just as there wasn't in 1975.

If dealing with reality isn't your thing, your "intense frustration" is hardly surprising.”

Not sure what you mean. The fact I realise it`s reality (and so many factors conspired to make it so) is why I`m so frustrated.

Incidentally, two comments from some of Leave voters I`ve spoken to :

I voted Leave "because I wanted an extra £350 million a week into the NHS". And I`m not joking here, though to be fair he`s a young man who would be the first to admit he has limited interest in, or knowledge of, politics.

I voted Leave because "things couldn`t be any worse". Two points here, things could indeed be much worse, and even if they couldn`t, what has that provably got to do with the EU ?

But the classic was given to me by a work colleague who lives up near Barnsley, in an ex coal mining area. One Leave voter told him she voted to leave "because we hate Maggie Thatcher". When quizzed that Thatcher`s dead anyway, she replied "if the Tories wanted us to stay in, we`d vote to leave". This is incredible / irrational / illogical and just plain wrong on so many levels I don`t even know where to begin.

And that`s why referendums, particularly on complex issues, are a bad idea.
vintage_girl
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by Justin Aerial:
“Oh I agree with you, many people say things Online they`d never say face to face. Or I hope that`s true, because if it isn`t they must be very unpleasant people, and I`ve never met anyone like that.
I never said all, or even most Leavers were aggressive, just a higher percentage. As I said on the opener, if the situation was reversed would the equivalent of Gina Miller be going into court with bodyguards ? I doubt it. And would any of the Remain campaign leaders be saying if the Remain vote is overturned (even by another referendum) "there`ll be riots on the streets ?" I think not.”

Well the thing is even though it's online it's still a real person behind a screen. They might not say it face to face but they're still thinking it. In a way, the Internet has allowed us to see what people are really thinking, which isn't always nice. Most of the abuse towards Gina Miller was online too, but that doesn't make it any better. A threat is still a threat. I agree that on the whole, Brexiteers appear to be very aggressive but I'm inclined to think it's just a very vocal minority. Most of the Leavers I know voted and then went about their lives as normal. I think the referendum has brought the few weirdos and extremists out of the woodwork.
MAW
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by vintage_girl:
“Well the thing is even though it's online it's still a real person behind a screen. They might not say it face to face but they're still thinking it. In a way, the Internet has allowed us to see what people are really thinking, which isn't always nice. Most of the abuse towards Gina Miller was online too, but that doesn't make it any better. A threat is still a threat. I agree that on the whole, Brexiteers appear to be very aggressive but I'm inclined to think it's just a very vocal minority. Most of the Leavers I know voted and then went about their lives as normal. I think the referendum has brought the few weirdos and extremists out of the woodwork.”

It's probably the same weirdos and extremists who are semi permanently like that on the net these days. The average troll seems to like to appear anti establishment, as it's more edgy. This is the surprising thing about the abuse from remainers. They are, after all, the rational, liberal mainstream, aren't they? Yet a very vocal minority of them is up to pretty much the same antics as brexiteers, though arguably not in such large numbers.
contrarian
09-12-2016
I loved how Nigel Farage schooled the panel and audience on QT last night, he really has been the politician of this decade and no mistake
Hieronymous
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by Justin Aerial:
“I don't know anyone who has said that about people who voted leave. What some might have pointed out, and I didn`t think it`s a matter for debate, I thought it was accepted statistical fact, is that on average those who voted remain were better educated. Are you saying that`s incorrect ?”

Of course not. Nor am I saying that it is correct as there is simply no way of knowing. So I don't know where your "accepted statistical fact" comes from.
gamez-fan
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by starry_rune:
“Wake up you bunch of *****

This situation has been created specifically to point attention at immigrants instead of the government and banks, and to create a sense of divide. Remain or brexit things would be much the same. Periods of wealth and periods of poor. All this has done is take attention away from the governement to stop us collectively bargaining with them to share out the billions and billions and billions a bit more fairly.

Strength in unity.”

Do you think i need you to tell me the obvious..?? divide and rule is the oldest trick in the book, and yet you others like you that make posts like this more than likely just played their game and voted in both the general election and the EU referendum.

If as you say you'd like to see a situation were the collective power of the people is in the ascendance
rather the situation we have always had where only the rich and powerfull have all the stroke then the
answer is and always has been simple the people do not vote thereby creating a constitutional crisis follow
that by calling a general strike and then and only then we may see some of the changes you so desire.

But it will never happen as people dont have the time for true democracy so we delegate that to politicians
and law makers otherwise the alternative is referendums we all have to vote in everytime a new law or policy
has to be passed.
anne_666
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by Justin Aerial:
“Not sure what you mean. The fact I realise it`s reality (and so many factors conspired to make it so) is why I`m so frustrated.

Incidentally, two comments from some of Leave voters I`ve spoken to :

I voted Leave "because I wanted an extra £350 million a week into the NHS". And I`m not joking here, though to be fair he`s a young man who would be the first to admit he has limited interest in, or knowledge of, politics.

I voted Leave because "things couldn`t be any worse". Two points here, things could indeed be much worse, and even if they couldn`t, what has that provably got to do with the EU ?

But the classic was given to me by a work colleague who lives up near Barnsley, in an ex coal mining area. One Leave voter told him she voted to leave "because we hate Maggie Thatcher". When quizzed that Thatcher`s dead anyway, she replied "if the Tories wanted us to stay in, we`d vote to leave". This is incredible / irrational / illogical and just plain wrong on so many levels I don`t even know where to begin.

And that`s why referendums, particularly on complex issues, are a bad idea.”

I'm not convinced this is the real basis for your argument.
Do you feel the same about the 48 EU referendums held across Europe to date?
Did you feel the same about the remain vote in 1975 which was in response to public dissent about joining the Common Market without a referendum?
As the EU developed the UK was denied the promised referendum on what is a very different institution to the Common Market.

I'm also not convinced that you would be using this argument if remain had won.
Only quoting ill informed comments from leave voters and the campaign, not both sides, indicates a struggle with your acceptance of the democratic process and a need for an assumption of losing remain voter false superiority.
It might be a temporary salve while you catastrophise the future and dwell on meaningless what ifs, but can't change anything about the necessary democratic process or the vote result.
Justin Aerial
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by Hieronymous:
“Of course not. Nor am I saying that it is correct as there is simply no way of knowing. So I don't know where your "accepted statistical fact" comes from.”

The BBC on election night. I`ve heard it since more than once, I`m sure you could find it using Google if you disbelieve me and the BBC.
Justin Aerial
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by Justin Aerial

Incidentally, two comments from some of Leave voters I`ve spoken to :

I voted Leave "because I wanted an extra £350 million a week into the NHS". And I`m not joking here, though to be fair he`s a young man who would be the first to admit he has limited interest in, or knowledge of, politics.

I voted Leave because "things couldn`t be any worse". Two points here, things could indeed be much worse, and even if they couldn`t, what has that provably got to do with the EU ?

But the classic was given to me by a work colleague who lives up near Barnsley, in an ex coal mining area. One Leave voter told him she voted to leave "because we hate Maggie Thatcher". When quizzed that Thatcher`s dead anyway, she replied "if the Tories wanted us to stay in, we`d vote to leave". This is incredible / irrational / illogical and just plain wrong on so many levels I don`t even know where to begin.

Originally Posted by anne_666:
“I'm not convinced this is the real basis for your argument.
Do you feel the same about the 48 EU referendums held across Europe to date?
Did you feel the same about the remain vote in 1975 which was in response to public dissent about joining the Common Market without a referendum?
As the EU developed the UK was denied the promised referendum on what is a very different institution to the Common Market.

I'm also not convinced that you would be using this argument if remain had won.
Only quoting ill informed comments from leave voters and the campaign, not both sides, indicates a struggle with your acceptance of the democratic process and a need for an assumption of losing remain voter false superiority.
It might be a temporary salve while you catastrophise the future and dwell on meaningless what ifs, but can't change anything about the necessary democratic process or the vote result.”

I`m only telling you what they said to me. I thought it was an accepted fact that a significant number of Leave voters were using it a tool to kick the establishment / the government. I`d have thought it certain that more than 4% did so, a very significant percentage in a 52/48 vote. The great tragedy is they have decided to make this point in a referendum not a General Election. The latter being something which can be changed 5 years down the line. It really is a perfect storm.
Doctor_Wibble
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by Justin Aerial:
“Incidentally, two comments from some of Leave voters I`ve spoken to :

I voted Leave "because I wanted an extra £350 million a week into the NHS". And I`m not joking here, though to be fair he`s a young man who would be the first to admit he has limited interest in, or knowledge of, politics.”

I think you were lucky to speak to one of the half-dozen people in the entire country who voted brexit for just that reason. It only seems like there were more because the channels just repeated the interviews from different angles and used filters to add different hats and stuff.

Quote:
“[from second leave voter] I voted Leave because "things couldn`t be any worse". Two points here, things could indeed be much worse, and even if they couldn`t, what has that provably got to do with the EU ?”

But the 'much worse' was being predicted by people associated with those they felt had some responsibility for their current predicament, and what they wanted was an actual change rather than e.g. in an election where you just change the captain, the ship stays the same.

The fact that many did just want to kick the establishment has me thinking that the EU was almost an irrelevance in the whole 'vote for anything other than same old same old' thing.
Zeropoint1
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by Justin Aerial:
“Originally Posted by Justin Aerial

Incidentally, two comments from some of Leave voters I`ve spoken to :

I voted Leave "because I wanted an extra £350 million a week into the NHS". And I`m not joking here, though to be fair he`s a young man who would be the first to admit he has limited interest in, or knowledge of, politics.

I voted Leave because "things couldn`t be any worse". Two points here, things could indeed be much worse, and even if they couldn`t, what has that provably got to do with the EU ?

But the classic was given to me by a work colleague who lives up near Barnsley, in an ex coal mining area. One Leave voter told him she voted to leave "because we hate Maggie Thatcher". When quizzed that Thatcher`s dead anyway, she replied "if the Tories wanted us to stay in, we`d vote to leave". This is incredible / irrational / illogical and just plain wrong on so many levels I don`t even know where to begin.



I`m only telling you what they said to me. I thought it was an accepted fact that a significant number of Leave voters were using it a tool to kick the establishment / the government. I`d have thought it certain that more than 4% did so, a very significant percentage in a 52/48 vote. The great tragedy is they have decided to make this point in a referendum not a General Election. The latter being something which can be changed 5 years down the line. It really is a perfect storm.”

That's very convient that you should decide a figure of 4% or more. Why not 10% or 15%?

I've seen the same convient figures in the Guardian and Independent comments section. They always announce that the fact is over a million people didn't know what they voted for / changed their mind / regretted their vote.

There's never any statistics or source for these 'facts' perhaps other than from Momentum, The Socialist Worker, 38 degrees or the ever reliable SNP.
anne_666
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by Justin Aerial:
“
I`m only telling you what they said to me. I thought it was an accepted fact that a significant number of Leave voters were using it a tool to kick the establishment / the government. I`d have thought it certain that more than 4% did so, a very significant percentage in a 52/48 vote. The great tragedy is they have decided to make this point in a referendum not a General Election. The latter being something which can be changed 5 years down the line. It really is a perfect storm.”

None of which relates to the points or questions in my post.

Strange, you don't include the EU in your "establishment" claim.
Who are they, insignificant bystanders?
tghe-retford
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by Justin Aerial:
“And that`s why referendums, particularly on complex issues, are a bad idea.”

The arguments I have seen from a few remain voters should be that both direct (referenda) and representative democracy has failed because people voted the wrong way (Brexit and Trump). I'd like to see them present an alternative to democracy to prevent those who disagree with them (ie. "dimwits") from being able to influence a vote.
Zeropoint1
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by anne_666:
“None of which relates to the points or questions in my post.

Strange, you don't include the EU in your "establishment" claim.
Who are they, insignificant bystanders?”

I'll admit a small part of the reason I voted to leave was to give the establishment a kicking and the EU was that establishment.

They made it quite clear that David Cameron would get nothing when he was granted a little time at the end of other conferences that they would offer nothing and anything they did offer could be changed after the referendum. Which obviously they thought 'Remain' would win.
Cornish_Piskie
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by Andrew1954:
“It has been divided for years. People have only just realised. As long as the status quo held sway, the growing undercurrent of discontent on so many levels was easily ignored.

But the fact that over half of the electorate voted against the status quo, despite the massive barrage of establishment propaganda day after day leading up to the referendum, reminds us just how Eurosceptic this country is. I suspect the the number voting Brexit would have been much higher had many voters not been frightened into voting remain by the chorus of gloom and doom from the remain camp.”

It isn't any sort of 'fact' that half the electorate voted to leave. It is true that more than half of those who voted, voted to leave. Subtle difference but if you claim the remain camp indulged in propaganda, then by the very first line of your second paragraph, you're hoist with your own petard.

As for Remain propaganda, all we have to do is point at the Leave claim that the EU was costing Britain £350 million a week, when everybody knew that we were getting a vast amount of that back in rebates, and more besides in subsidies to farming. They then plastered all over their campaign bus that this £350m was the amount that would be pumped back into the NHS, when they knew full well that was a lie.

You can't complain that Remain called Leave voters uneducated morons when they willingly and enthusiastically bought into the £350m a week shtick and clung to it, desperately hoping.... wishing.... PRAYING.... that it might just be true. Dumb is as dumb does.

I said, some posts back, that this issue has divided the country like nothing before it. It's true that there was discontent before the Referendum, but that is so in any democracy. There are always people who are unhappy about something. There is always disillusion when this group or that group don't get their way on any given issue. But those situations are the swings and roundabouts of life. Some things you win and some you lose and if letting gay people get married offends your religious beliefs, or benefit claimants rub you up the wrong way because they fiddle the system while you go out to work and pay your taxes, then that sort of "discontent" is endemic in any democracy anywhere in the world.

Parliamentary democracy isn't perfect, but it's a bloody sight better than a lot of people in the world have got. We lived in a stable, economically sound, fair minded, tolerant and accepting society which I believe is significantly less so today than it was before.
Hieronymous
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by Justin Aerial:
“The BBC on election night. I`ve heard it since more than once, I`m sure you could find it using Google if you disbelieve me and the BBC.”

The BBC on election night??

The BBC knows which side it's bread is buttered but I've little time for those arrogant so and so's.

However I took your advice and Goooooooooogled and found a YouGov. Poll. N.B. Poll!

Quote:
“The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%.”

We all know how discredited polls are after their recent, and not so recent, failures.

It's the comments on the poll that I find significant. Which reminds me:

Link

No-one can really know who was, or was not, better educated unless they knew all umpteen million voters, how they voted, and what their educational background is.

Which makes me wonder as well just how they can know which age group voted which way.. Polls don't exactly have a good track record.
RobinOfLoxley
09-12-2016
Wasn't the Referendum just a large scale Poll?
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