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Respecting the 48 per cent


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Old 17-12-2016, 00:43
andykn
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Who believed that World War 3 would break out,
Ask Boris, WWIII was his invention.

that we'd be £4300 worse off (not just "poorer" but specifically £4300 poorer),
If we exit the EU on WTO terms we might yet be.
or that we'd be able to control the numbers of incoming migrants from the EU by staying in?

Laughable.
That last one is as we don't control the number of migrants from outside the EU as well, net they're greater than from the EU.
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Old 17-12-2016, 00:45
andykn
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d

It was a slogan, not a particularly sophisticated one but one of many used despite the way Remainers fixate on it. but it reminded people that a huge amount of money goes to the EU etc etc. the official Leave campaign may have made mistakes -who doesn't in a political campaign, have you never seen one before? They're politicians! But obviously they made more impact in total than Remain which was deliberately trying to scare the life out of every section of the general public with it's OTT doom and damnation.
If they'd just been less obviously out to terrify people, so much so it got laughable, and relied on being remotely positive about their beloved EU they may well have won.
The figure wasn't a mistake, it was a lie.
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Old 17-12-2016, 01:18
gizza_gazza
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What, researched Prof Niall's position?

Anyway, he might change his mind again tomorrow.
I certainly never accused you of that. If you'd bothered to do any research you would have come across this quote from him: "Issue was not GDP but future migration."
In the meantime you can ignore what's happening and happily fiddle with your various trade agreement scenarios whilst Rome burns before your own eyes. People like you are so fixated on the position of the UK in the current EU that you are blind to voters across the continent clamouring for a change to the EU.
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Old 17-12-2016, 02:17
Mr Oleo Strut
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The figure wasn't a mistake, it was a lie.
Absolutely spot on. It was a clear lie and I have no intention of basing my future on it. You can do as you wish.
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Old 17-12-2016, 10:02
andykn
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I certainly never accused you of that. If you'd bothered to do any research you would have come across this quote from him: "Issue was not GDP but future migration."
In the meantime you can ignore what's happening and happily fiddle with your various trade agreement scenarios whilst Rome burns before your own eyes. People like you are so fixated on the position of the UK in the current EU that you are blind to voters across the continent clamouring for a change to the EU.
But I've addressed the migration situation. Pretty much every day I have to point out that, despite the promise 6 years ago that May would get non EU migration down to "tens of thousands", net non EU migration is higher than EU.

That's the "part of the equation" leavers ignore.
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Old 17-12-2016, 10:14
Blairdennon
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But I've addressed the migration situation. Pretty much every day I have to point out that, despite the promise 6 years ago that May would get non EU migration down to "tens of thousands", net non EU migration is higher than EU.

That's the "part of the equation" leavers ignore.
It is not ignoring it it is observing it. The first step is leave the EU to place our borders fully in our control, then elect a government that will fully control those borders. That is the democratic process. Many have observed the Tories but also have observed Labour. Labour dramatically increased non EU immigration, the Tories have been unable/unwilling to reduce it.
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Old 17-12-2016, 10:22
andykn
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It is not ignoring it it is observing it. The first step is leave the EU to place our borders fully in our control, then elect a government that will fully control those borders. That is the democratic process. Many have observed the Tories but also have observed Labour. Labour dramatically increased non EU immigration, the Tories have been unable/unwilling to reduce it.
No, the first step is to show that enough people care about immigration before you damage our economy in the hope that it might get reduced against the evidence. Indeed, had the Tories made good on their promise immigration might have been low enough to not need to leave the EU to reduce it any further.

Labour got voted back in twice after increasing non EU immigration, people didn't care then.
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Old 17-12-2016, 10:32
LostFool
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It is not ignoring it it is observing it. The first step is leave the EU to place our borders fully in our control, then elect a government that will fully control those borders. That is the democratic process. Many have observed the Tories but also have observed Labour. Labour dramatically increased non EU immigration, the Tories have been unable/unwilling to reduce it.
Has anyone from Team Leave explained what "fully controlling our borders" actually means? Do you want a hard border with the Republic or Ireland, compulsory visas and background checks for holiday makers, day trippers and business travellers?

Currently over a billion people have the right to visit the UK without visa. How are you going to "control" them? Are we really under threat from Japanese people on holiday?
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Old 17-12-2016, 10:52
Mark_Jones9
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Has anyone from Team Leave explained what "fully controlling our borders" actually means? Do you want a hard border with the Republic or Ireland, compulsory visas and background checks for holiday makers, day trippers and business travellers?

Currently over a billion people have the right to visit the UK without visa. How are you going to "control" them? Are we really under threat from Japanese people on holiday?
Fully control our borders primarily means not having to adhere to EU freedom of movement and residence of people policy. It can also mean the UK government having full authority to decide all policy on its own border control, immigration, asylum, deportation policies, without having to adhere to the policies and rulings of other organizations like the EU, ECHR, or even the UN convention on refugees.

People who see mass uncontrolled immigration from other EU nations as a problem or mass immigration of Muslims or mass immigration of non-Whites as a problem, hope the government would then be able and willing to respond to their concerns.

As to your particular questions outside the EU a customs border would exist between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Freedom of movement of people with the Republic of Ireland would however remain. Tourists and business visitors from other EU nations would go back to pre Maastricht treaty which in most cases means visa free travel to the UK.
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Old 17-12-2016, 12:53
LostFool
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As to your particular questions outside the EU a customs border would exist between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Freedom of movement of people with the Republic of Ireland would however remain. Tourists and business visitors from other EU nations would go back to pre Maastricht treaty which in most cases means visa free travel to the UK.
So, in other words, we wouldn't have "full control" of our borders.
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Old 17-12-2016, 14:23
Mr Oleo Strut
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Almost six months on and Remainers can hold their heads high. The shambles that is Brexit is unraveling daily before our eyes and will continue to do so. The ignorance, stupidity, bigotry and lies that resulted in the referendum decision will haunt our nation forever, unless the nonsense of Brexit is stopped.
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Old 17-12-2016, 14:30
John146
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Almost six months on and Remainers can hold their heads high. The shambles that is Brexit is unraveling daily before our eyes and will continue to do so. The ignorance, stupidity, bigotry and lies that resulted in the referendum decision will haunt our nation forever, unless the nonsense of Brexit is stopped.




I wouldn't hold your breath waiting, Theresa repeated in Brussels that we are leaving the EU

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...n-crisis-EU-27
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Old 17-12-2016, 14:34
burneside
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Almost six months on and Remainers can hold their heads high. The shambles that is Brexit is unraveling daily before our eyes and will continue to do so. The ignorance, stupidity, bigotry and lies that resulted in the referendum decision will haunt our nation forever, unless the nonsense of Brexit is stopped.
We are in a period of phoney-war at the moment, you will need to wait until February/March next year when Brexit will really kick-off.
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Old 17-12-2016, 16:18
andykn
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We are in a period of phoney-war at the moment, you will need to wait until February/March next year when Brexit will really kick-off.
Fallen pound, growth propped up by halved interest rates and billions of taxpayer money pumped into private firms, growth still down, inflation up - not very phoney.
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Old 17-12-2016, 16:21
Happ Hazzard
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The 48% have shown no respect whatsoever to the 52%, either before or after the referendum. The country has been run for the benefit of a minority for far too long now, same as in the US, which is why we have Trump, and why we have Brexit.
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Old 17-12-2016, 17:36
Penny Crayon
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The 48% have shown no respect whatsoever to the 52%, either before or after the referendum. The country has been run for the benefit of a minority for far too long now, same as in the US, which is why we have Trump, and why we have Brexit.
You really have been brainwashed haven't you? What a complete load of crap. You have simply had some incompetent 'elites' blathering on about 'other elites' and swapped from those who manage/tighrope running a country to idiots who have hit on the idea of blaming everything on immigrants - there is no plan - we are heading off the edge of a cliff whilst 'grubby little opportunists' like Farage and Trump jump on an opportunity make their mark on history.

http://www.economist.com/news/books-...ecome-obsessed

elite financiers tanked the global economy, elite economists failed to foresee it and political elites failed to respond effectively enough. Those elites in the crosshairs had to find other elites to blame, and they did so. Elite scientists and Hollywood liberals whining about climate change cost coalminers their jobs. Elite London journalists noshing on sushi ignore the problems that hard-working northern Brits suffer as a result of immigration. Cultural elites police what can be said about minorities. And so on.

But the rush to blame elites has nearly everyone in the crosshairs: Sketch Engine, a digital tool for lexicographers, finds among the common modifiers for elite not just obvious ones like “ruling”, “wealthy”, “monied”, but also “secular”, “cultural”, “educated”, “metropolitan” and “bureaucratic”. Elites are no longer “the choice part or flower” of a group, but merely anyone in a position of influence someone else thinks they do not deserve.
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Old 17-12-2016, 18:01
Happ Hazzard
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Even if that is true, do you think that things could have been done differently in the past so that a large proportion of the country weren't so peed off with the EU and the "elites"? Globalisation and the EU have benefitted some people at the expense of others, and the others outnumber the beneficiaries. Which is why we have Brexit.
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Old 17-12-2016, 18:36
andykn
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Even if that is true, do you think that things could have been done differently in the past so that a large proportion of the country weren't so peed off with the EU and the "elites"? Globalisation and the EU have benefitted some people at the expense of others, and the others outnumber the beneficiaries. Which is why we have Brexit.
Who has lost out because of globalisation and the EU?
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Old 17-12-2016, 18:54
LostFool
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Even if that is true, do you think that things could have been done differently in the past so that a large proportion of the country weren't so peed off with the EU and the "elites"? Globalisation and the EU have benefitted some people at the expense of others, and the others outnumber the beneficiaries. Which is why we have Brexit.
The "elites" will always benefit regardless of the situation they are in as they have the money, skills or connections That's why they are the elites. If you think that the down-trodden will suddenly start to thrive outside or the UK and the "elites" will be brought down a peg or two then you are going to be very disappointed.
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Old 17-12-2016, 22:17
gizza_gazza
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But I've addressed the migration situation. Pretty much every day I have to point out that, despite the promise 6 years ago that May would get non EU migration down to "tens of thousands", net non EU migration is higher than EU.

That's the "part of the equation" leavers ignore.
I just used that as an example of what the "Islamophobe" (your words) Ferguson was actually saying about his changed views on Brexit. He was once an avid Remain supporter but, since the vote, has changed his mind. I don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat this, but I think the big mistake Remainers are making is in believing that the terms of Brexit are going to be conducted within an EU structure which is equivalent to the one we see now. Thusfar there have two votes, one in the UK and the other in Italy where the electorate would have been considered mad to vote against the motion, but they both have, despite the obvious perils. You seem to be absolutely unaware that there is an anti-establishment sentiment amongst voters which isn't even an organised movement (Yet. Please don't mention UKIP. One MP, not Nigel Farage says enough), but the masses will continue to vote against an establishment which they feel isn't serving their best interests. There is an overwhelming feeling of the privileged lining their own coffers at the sufferance of the ordinary person. In the meantime we have votes coming up in 2017 in the Netherlands, France and Germany. I can see at least one, maybe two of those going the same way. And all you seem to want to talk about in the meantime is the everyday minutua.
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Old 17-12-2016, 22:45
andykn
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I just used that as an example of what the "Islamophobe" (your words)
Er, where did I use that word?
Ferguson was actually saying about his changed views on Brexit. He was once an avid Remain supporter
Hmmm, so having tried to lecture me on mot researching properly you've not even read much beyond the headline of your own link; from the second paragraph:

“It is one of the few times in my life that I’ve argued something without wholly believing it,”
but, since the vote, has changed his mind. I don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat this, but I think the big mistake Remainers are making is in believing that the terms of Brexit are going to be conducted within an EU structure which is equivalent to the one we see now. Thusfar there have two votes, one in the UK and the other in Italy where the electorate would have been considered mad to vote against the motion, but they both have, despite the obvious perils. You seem to be absolutely unaware that there is an anti-establishment sentiment amongst voters which isn't even an organised movement (Yet. Please don't mention UKIP. One MP, not Nigel Farage says enough), but the masses will continue to vote against an establishment which they feel isn't serving their best interests.
52-48 doesn't represent "the masses" just slightly more of "the masses" than not.
There is an overwhelming feeling of the privileged lining their own coffers at the sufferance of the ordinary person. In the meantime we have votes coming up in 2017 in the Netherlands, France and Germany. I can see at least one, maybe two of those going the same way. And all you seem to want to talk about in the meantime is the everyday minutua.
The ongoing damage to the economy of the UK for no discernible benefit isn't "minutia" to me.
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Old 17-12-2016, 22:54
Maxatoria
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Er, where did I use that word?

Hmmm, so having tried to lecture me on mot researching properly you've not even read much beyond the headline of your own link; from the second paragraph:

“It is one of the few times in my life that I’ve argued something without wholly believing it,”

52-48 doesn't represent "the masses" just slightly more of "the masses" than not.

The ongoing damage to the economy of the UK for no discernible benefit isn't "minutia" to me.
At what point would you of accepted the referendum? 60/70/90/101%?

52% beats 48% in any way you live to turn the numbers around....theres 100 people and 52% of them fancy a curry and 48% of them fancy a burger and chips guess where the Saturday night crowd are going for the post beer food!
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Old 17-12-2016, 23:04
andykn
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At what point would you of accepted the referendum? 60/70/90/101%?

52% beats 48% in any way you live to turn the numbers around....theres 100 people and 52% of them fancy a curry and 48% of them fancy a burger and chips guess where the Saturday night crowd are going for the post beer food!
But not for ever and ever.
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Old 17-12-2016, 23:12
gizza_gazza
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Er, where did I use that word?

Hmmm, so having tried to lecture me on mot researching properly you've not even read much beyond the headline of your own link; from the second paragraph:

“It is one of the few times in my life that I’ve argued something without wholly believing it,”

52-48 doesn't represent "the masses" just slightly more of "the masses" than not.

The ongoing damage to the economy of the UK for no discernible benefit isn't "minutia" to me.
Oh dear. You're still dodging. How about debating?
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Old 17-12-2016, 23:27
Maxatoria
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But not for ever and ever.
We can always reapply to the EU so nothing shall we say is permanent, we therefore will be using the euro and have no veto's so in theory it could be a win for the EU lovers just that its going to take some time....
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