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MPs have voted in favour of the Government's timetable to trigger Article 50 by March


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Old 07-12-2016, 20:24
allaorta
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It has been partly caused by there being virtually zero clarification on what people were voting for last June. People voted for Leave without having a clue whether this meant the UK would end up inside or outside the Single Market / EEA etc.
Leave the EU means we're outside the EU Single Market. How many more times FGS?
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:27
wizzywick
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Oh yes they will. There is no way they are going to let UK government lie to its public that they haven't accepted FOM by calling it something else.. What matters to EU is their population and what they think. The last thing they want is for UK to be seen to have a deal that is as good as their population have.
You really do think the EU is some kind of sacred cow don't you?

The proposals: (hypothetically);

The EU says we can have have membership of the single market, but we have to accept Freedom of movement for a £4 billion fee.

The UK realises that trade and business is vital to the economy and reluctantly agrees to FOM but agrees with EU negotiators to rename it in order to appease other country's who also share concerns about it. That way, EU nations realise Britain has been forced into accepting that they don't want but the ordinary joe public across the EU believe some kind of compromise on FOM has been made for everyone across the EU.

Why would the EU care what it is called if it surmounts to the same thing?
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:27
swingaleg
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Britain was here before the people were! It's all about the economy stupid!
But the 65 million people don't all have the same economic interests

the 'best Brexit' for small business isn't the same as the 'best Brexit' for the City of London or for big businesses that export a lot to the EU

that's before we even get to non-business interests

there are several possible Brexit outcomes.......none of them will be 'best' for everyone. Some will be happy, some won't...........
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:28
wizzywick
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But the 65 million people don't all have the same economic interests

the 'best Brexit' for small business isn't the same as the 'best Brexit' for the City of London or for big businesses that export a lot to the EU

that's before we even get to non-business interests

there are several possible Brexit outcomes.......none of them will be 'best' for everyone. Some will be happy, some won't...........
Welcome to democracy!
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:31
luckylegs
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Leave the EU means we're outside the EU Single Market. How many more times FGS?
Yes it does not sure why people don't get this.

Especially the Remainers because David Cameron used it in his Remain campaign if you vote Leave it means we will leave the Single Market!

Did they not believe their own campaigners!
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:32
Aurora13
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You really do think the EU is some kind of sacred cow don't you?

The proposals: (hypothetically);

The EU says we can have have membership of the single market, but we have to accept Freedom of movement for a £4 billion fee.

The UK realises that trade and business is vital to the economy and reluctantly agrees to FOM but agrees with EU negotiators to rename it in order to appease other country's who also share concerns about it. That way, EU nations realise Britain has been forced into accepting that they don't want but the ordinary joe public across the EU believe some kind of compromise on FOM has been made for everyone across the EU.

Why would the EU care what it is called if it surmounts to the same thing?
EU is not sacred to me but I do know it is sacred to those who are doing the negotiating. They are not going to do a deal that allow the UK to lie to the public including the remaining citizens of EU. Why do you want our government to lie anyway?
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:34
swingaleg
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Welcome to democracy!
so.......you agree that some will be happy and some won't

how can there be a 'best for Britain' when we democratically don't agree on what the 'best' is

it'll be the best for some people but not for others

we/they/the country can't agree on what is 'best'.........there is no 'best' that is 'best' for everyone !
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:37
swingaleg
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Yes it does not sure why people don't get this.

Especially the Remainers because David Cameron used it in his Remain campaign if you vote Leave it means we will leave the Single Market!

Did they not believe their own campaigners!
So why doesn't Mrs May just spell it out?

If she just says 'we're leaving the single market' then all the guff about negotiations disappears because there's nothing to negotiate..........do you think the EU will negotiate to try and get us to stay in once we've said we're leaving ?
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:38
Rich Tea.
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Was never really in doubt. Why the government bothered to appeal the court decision is beyond me.

Anyway have certain posters booked their flights/ferries out of the country yet?
Which is why I am a bit confused at this vote tonight. The BBC is reporting it as "MP's vote to respect the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end of March, meaning the UK will leave the EU by early 2019", which is what I would expect.

So why hasn't this vote tonight made the High Court case irrelevant now if MP's have overwhelmingly accepted Article 50 should be enacted by 31st March 2017?
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:39
Aurora13
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Yes it does not sure why people don't get this.

Especially the Remainers because David Cameron used it in his Remain campaign if you vote Leave it means we will leave the Single Market!

Did they not believe their own campaigners!
Don't Leave voters accept the campaign fought? I give you Daniel Hannan on the night after the vote. He says very clearly that he had spent the last 4 months going around the country campaigning about remaining in common market.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCghi2rVaWY
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:40
Aurora13
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Which is why I am a bit confused at this vote tonight. The BBC is reporting it as "MP's vote to respect the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end of March, meaning the UK will leave the EU by early 2019", which is what I would expect.

So why hasn't this vote tonight made the High Court case irrelevant now if MP's have overwhelmingly accepted Article 50 should be enacted by 31st March 2017?
It's a motion not an act of Parliament.
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:43
Video Nasty
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Which is why I am a bit confused at this vote tonight. The BBC is reporting it as "MP's vote to respect the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end of March, meaning the UK will leave the EU by early 2019", which is what I would expect.

So why hasn't this vote tonight made the High Court case irrelevant now if MP's have overwhelmingly accepted Article 50 should be enacted by 31st March 2017?
As another poster said it could be stalling but it's pretty pointless now since May has pretty much tied herself to the invoking A50 by the end of March.

I honestly don't think she has a clue.
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:43
Steve_Holmes
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so.......you agree that some will be happy and some won't

how can there be a 'best for Britain' when we democratically don't agree on what the 'best' is

it'll be the best for some people but not for others

we/they/the country can't agree on what is 'best'.........there is no 'best' that is 'best' for everyone !
Irrelevant - What we can, and have produced via democratic action, is established that the will of the majority of voters wish the UK to leave the EU.
The claim that 30% or so of the electorate didn't vote, so the result cannot be considered to be a democratic majority, is nonsense.
The electorate in total, always has the opportunity to vote - and just as it is in a General Election, those that choose not to vote can ONLY be considered as 'abstainers' - and therefore not particularly bothered over the outcome.
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:43
luckylegs
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Which is why I am a bit confused at this vote tonight. The BBC is reporting it as "MP's vote to respect the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end of March, meaning the UK will leave the EU by early 2019", which is what I would expect.

So why hasn't this vote tonight made the High Court case irrelevant now if MP's have overwhelmingly accepted Article 50 should be enacted by 31st March 2017?
It has made it irrelevant to A50 and Leaving the EU and bloody waste of money but it has opened a can of worms - a can of worms that I expect by this time next year that whoever brought the court case will regret. But it was never going to stop us Leaving the EU anyway.
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:44
MargMck
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so.......you agree that some will be happy and some won't

how can there be a 'best for Britain' when we democratically don't agree on what the 'best' is

it'll be the best for some people but not for others

we/they/the country can't agree on what is 'best'.........there is no 'best' that is 'best' for everyone !
Actually there is.
Every now again all the grown ups get asked what do you want, we have to choose a) or b)? A choice is made and that's what happens.
What is best for everyone is that, regardless of any result, we abide by democratic results. So we have democratically agreed on what the 'best' is... just as we did in 1975 when I voted No but lost the vote and just as we did when the Tories got an overall majority. Neither are results I liked, but results they are.
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:47
swingaleg
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Irrelevant - What we can, and have produced via democratic action, is established that the will of the majority of voters wish the UK to leave the EU.
The claim that 30% or so of the electorate didn't vote, so the result cannot be considered to be a democratic majority, is nonsense.
The electorate in total, always has the opportunity to vote - and just as it is in a General Election, those that choose not to vote can ONLY be considered as 'abstainers' - and therefore not particularly bothered over the outcome.
that's not what wizzy and I were discussing though

we were debating the concept of there being an outcome that was 'Best For Britain'......
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:47
Steve_Holmes
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Which is why I am a bit confused at this vote tonight. The BBC is reporting it as "MP's vote to respect the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end of March, meaning the UK will leave the EU by early 2019", which is what I would expect.

So why hasn't this vote tonight made the High Court case irrelevant now if MP's have overwhelmingly accepted Article 50 should be enacted by 31st March 2017?
Because the Government wish to emphasise the usual 'practise' of the Executive being able to use the Royal Prerogative on Treaty issues - and leaving the EU is a Treaty issue.
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:55
Rich Tea.
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Actually there is.
Every now again all the grown ups get asked what do you want, we have to choose a) or b)? A choice is made and that's what happens.
What is best for everyone is that, regardless of any result, we abide by democratic results. So we have democratically agreed on what the 'best' is... just as we did in 1975 when I voted No but lost the vote and just as we did when the Tories got an overall majority. Neither are results I liked, but results they are.
When you voted "no" in the 1975 referendum into staying in the common market as it was then called, where were those who then said the rights of the minority who wanted out such as yourself should be heard eh? Because in the intervening years the steamroller went merrily ahead into the EEC, then EC and then EU and by the grace of God we stayed out of the single currency despite huge pressure. Somehow a vote to stay in a common market ended up seen as the green light for virtual full integration into a United State Of Europe endgame, of which it was no such thing and nothing that anyone had ever voted for back then or been allowed to vote on in the years that followed.
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Old 07-12-2016, 20:59
swingaleg
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Actually there is.
Every now again all the grown ups get asked what do you want, we have to choose a) or b)? A choice is made and that's what happens.
What is best for everyone is that, regardless of any result, we abide by democratic results. So we have democratically agreed on what the 'best' is... just as we did in 1975 when I voted No but lost the vote and just as we did when the Tories got an overall majority. Neither are results I liked, but results they are.
yes, I see that point

but it's diverting from the original point about 'Britain' having a best outcome

whatever the outcome might be will be the best for some but not the best for others because we all have different interests........'Britain' as such doesn't have an interest outside of the people who live here and who have a multitude of 'best' outcomes
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Old 07-12-2016, 21:04
swingaleg
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Which is why I am a bit confused at this vote tonight. The BBC is reporting it as "MP's vote to respect the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end of March, meaning the UK will leave the EU by early 2019", which is what I would expect.

So why hasn't this vote tonight made the High Court case irrelevant now if MP's have overwhelmingly accepted Article 50 should be enacted by 31st March 2017?
well I suppose that tonight's vote has made the Government's case in Court that Parliament shouldn't vote on triggering Article 50 look rather stupid.

But the Court case is about more than that........it's also hearing submissions from the devolved assemblies and has to clarify the Law relating to use of royal prerogative which will provide a precedent for the future
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Old 07-12-2016, 21:10
KIIS102
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Good News but the Supreme Court might still give the middle finger to the public still unfortunately. There's also no point tying the Governments hands by forcing them to stay in the Single Market (or anything else).

If the EU knew the Government absolutely had to agree to something, they could basically say "you have to accept X,Y,Z and pay us £X a year and allow X,Y,Z in order to stay in that" and we couldn't say no. I'm all for Labour suggesting things we should go for but not locking a position in.
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Old 07-12-2016, 21:11
Rich Tea.
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well I suppose that tonight's vote has made the Government's case in Court that Parliament shouldn't vote on triggering Article 50 look rather stupid.

But the Court case is about more than that........it's also hearing submissions from the devolved assemblies and has to clarify the Law relating to use of royal prerogative which will provide a precedent for the future
Devolved corners of the UK are surely irrelevant in respect of the Royal Prerogative, which covers the UK as one single entity, with HM The Queen as Head Of State. There are no opt outs on that.
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Old 07-12-2016, 21:12
Steve_Holmes
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that's not what wizzy and I were discussing though

we were debating the concept of there being an outcome that was 'Best For Britain'......
Indeed - but you did write -how can there be a 'best for Britain' when we democratically don't agree on what the 'best' is, and the referendum patently DID democratically vote for what the electorate consider is 'Best for Britain'.
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Old 07-12-2016, 21:20
TelevisionUser
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Good News but the Supreme Court might still give the middle finger to the public still unfortunately. There's also no point tying the Governments hands by forcing them to stay in the Single Market (or anything else).

If the EU knew the Government absolutely had to agree to something, they could basically say "you have to accept X,Y,Z and pay us £X a year and allow X,Y,Z in order to stay in that" and we couldn't say no. I'm all for Labour suggesting things we should go for but not locking a position in.
That is a fundamental misunderstanding about what is actually happening in the Supreme Court right now.

This is case is ultimately not about Brexit (despite the totally misleading espoo in the Sun, Mail, Express and Telegraph). It is about how the government is proceeding about things (and it could have been any subject, not just Brexit) and whether the government is exceeding its constitutional powers as defined by law and precedent.
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Old 07-12-2016, 21:25
Rich Tea.
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That is a fundamental misunderstanding about what is actually happening in the Supreme Court right now.

This is case is ultimately not about Brexit (despite the totally misleading espoo in the Sun, Mail, Express and Telegraph). It is about how the government is proceeding about things (and it could have been any subject, not just Brexit) and whether the government is exceeding its constitutional powers as defined by law and precedent.
When was the last time the Government used the Royal Prerogative or stated its intent ahead of time to use it.....and where was Gina Miller then exactly?
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