DS Forums

 
 

MPs have voted in favour of the Government's timetable to trigger Article 50 by March


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-12-2016, 22:39
outof thepark
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,622
If that's the case why aren't people making demands of the EU itself to tell us what its plans are?
Are the EU going to release a plan for us to look at and scrutinise?
Of course they aren't. They made it clear that their plans will be kept secret from us, even though technically we're still a part of the EU at the moment.

It's quite incredible that so many people trust the EU more than our own government when it comes to what is in the best interests of the UK. I'm not joking, it really is incredible.
Not that we should just trust anything our government say. Not at all, we should be holding them to account whatever government it is. But with the EU it feels like an almost blind trust where people have some kind of faith in them that they're nothing but good.
i thought the EU has made it quite clear, and recently as well what they expect or want.
The problem I see here is a lot of people don't trust either side,
outof thepark is offline   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 07-12-2016, 22:39
Aurora13
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,592
Whilst you are 100% correct in regard to what we were repeatedly told Brexit meant with regard to membership of the single market, it's also the case that people went to the polling booths with promises of the EU playing ball and agreeing wholeheartedly to whatever free trade deal we might propose in the event of a leave vote. It was usually backed up by using the German automotive sector as the logical assumption/example.

Challenging that assumption was dismissed as scare mongering

So it's not about what we were told we were walking away from. It's what we were promised we could walk towards where there is legitimate criticism.
Interesting article in Telegraph today. Basically on the military maxim - the enemy has a vote.

In essence that most of the persuasive advocates of Brexit identified the EU's irrational inability to do sensible and self-interested things on economic reform, trade and democracy and considered it a good reason for Britain to leave.

Yet some of these same advocates are now left hoping that the EU will approach Brexit in a spirit of enlightened self-interest that they (rightly) observe has been wholly lacking from its conduct in recent years. Some Brexiteers are betting on the EU doing something in Brexit negotiations that its failure to do previously made the case for Brexit.
Aurora13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 22:40
wizzywick
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 27,888
Meanwhile farm produce is rotting away in fields as the flow of migrant pickers has been stemmed.

I hope brexiters are happy.

https://www.ft.com/content/7ceb876c-...e-a1acd97f622d
Well that's the farmers fault for limiting themselves to just recruiting foreign workers. My nephew would love to do it. He applied but was told "You wouldn't like it mate. Sorry!"
wizzywick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 22:42
MARTYM8
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 40,289
Which is why I am a bit confused at this vote tonight. The BBC is reporting it as "MP's vote to respect the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end of March, meaning the UK will leave the EU by early 2019", which is what I would expect.

So why hasn't this vote tonight made the High Court case irrelevant now if MP's have overwhelmingly accepted Article 50 should be enacted by 31st March 2017?
They didn't enact a law but just voted on a motion about a timetable.

Why on earth Mrs May doesn't just bring forward the bill now is beyond me - on the basis it will be enacted by 31 March providing her cunning plan is published before hand.

Unless of course the Supreme Court case is just a ruse to show her as the woman of the people standing up for voters against wicked judges, hedge fund managers, other establishment figures and Tim Farron!
MARTYM8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 22:44
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,741
Article 50 hasn't been rewritten. It speaks of there being a two year time limit for a country to leave the EU not that it should actually take two years : if both sides agreed on three months, that would fine.
I remember the Remain campaign telling us that the process would take at least two years but could take many more years before we have completely left.
Alrightmate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 22:46
MargMck
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 17,637
I would like to think that this would be Corbyn's aim, but it will probably be wishful thinking on my part.
The truth is that Corbyn has to do something or he's toast. He can't really go full on pro-EU because other people like Farron have taken on that role. That ship has sailed a long time ago. Throughout the last year with the EU referendum saga Corbyn has always been late to react and has been playing catchup ever since all this started.
If he has any sense he will continue with this path of Labour officially supporting "democracy" and that Brexit WILL happen as a result. Craftily aligning himself with currently popular May on just this one specific issue could actually win back run away Labour voters as the purpose of UKIP is negated. Afterwards he could take the credit for the "good bits" and blame the Tories, actually in charge of the negotiations, for the less palatable parts.
In return for backing FOM restrictions he could rattle on about taking the lead in reuniting a cohesive Britain after Brexit and press the Tories on housing, rents and min wage etc.
But, yes, he normally gets it wrong.
MargMck is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 22:46
Aurora13
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,592
I remember the Remain campaign telling us that the process would take at least two years but could take many more years before we have completely left.
Article 50 is about the divorce. That has to be finalised in two years. Then you move to the future friendship which will take longer.
Aurora13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 22:47
Tuscan Sun
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 237
If that's the case why aren't people making demands of the EU itself to tell us what its plans are?
Are the EU going to release a plan for us to look at and scrutinise?
Of course they aren't. They made it clear that their plans will be kept secret from us, even though technically we're still a part of the EU at the moment.

It's quite incredible that so many people trust the EU more than our own government when it comes to what is in the best interests of the UK. I'm not joking, it really is incredible.
Not that we should just trust anything our government say. Not at all, we should be holding them to account whatever government it is.

But with the EU it feels like an almost blind trust where people have some kind of faith in them that they're nothing but good.

Yes, an interesting condition - something like Stockholm Syndrome maybe?
Tuscan Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 22:47
allaorta
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
That is a fundamental misunderstanding about what is actually happening in the Supreme Court right now.

This is case is ultimately not about Brexit (despite the totally misleading espoo in the Sun, Mail, Express and Telegraph). It is about how the government is proceeding about things (and it could have been any subject, not just Brexit) and whether the government is exceeding its constitutional powers as defined by law and precedent.
No it's about what appears to be comparatively few people who have taken issue based on, in most cases, a dislike of the referendum result. Ask yourself what would have happened had the litigious ones not raised the issue, would using RP have come into question?
allaorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 22:50
allaorta
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
Well it most likely will be passed I agree, however Mrs May will have to more transparent about what her plans are, which overall must be a healthy thing. Personally I don't see the objection on these forums to not wanting that. Secrecy is not good for both sides of the arguement whichever way people voted.
In which case you might like to ask the EU to reveal all.
allaorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 22:51
Aurora13
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,592
They didn't enact a law but just voted on a motion about a timetable.

Why on earth Mrs May doesn't just bring forward the bill now is beyond me - on the basis it will be enacted by 31 March providing her cunning plan is published before hand.

Unless of course the Supreme Court case is just a ruse to show her as the woman of the people standing up for voters against wicked judges, hedge fund managers, other establishment figures and Tim Farron!
At long last you get it. Many us have been saying this for months. She is stalling and playing the british public using the right wing press. Hilary Benn said today in Parliament stop with the divisive behaviour / language. Government are causing divides and unrest purely because they haven't got their plan together.

Rather than admit they couldn't present a bill to Parliament they have pursued this case to Supreme Court. Labour have said for weeks that they would support a bill if it was presented to Parliament. Today it's taken Labour to put forward a motion.
Aurora13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 22:55
MargMck
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 17,637
Yes, an interesting condition - something like Stockholm Syndrome maybe?
Yes.
It's like all those people who kept sticking their hands up in FIFA votes for Sepp Blatter as more and more scams and bungs were revealed - but instead blamed the investigative journalists.
MargMck is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 22:57
welwynrose
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Welwyn Garden City
Posts: 29,549
Meanwhile farm produce is rotting away in fields as the flow of migrant pickers has been stemmed.

I hope brexiters are happy.

https://www.ft.com/content/7ceb876c-...e-a1acd97f622d
1) why link to a subscription only service
2) Maybe if the farmers paid better wages some U.K. unemployed would be willing to do the job
welwynrose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 23:02
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,741
In which case you might like to ask the EU to reveal all.
Especially those who see themselves as being a citizen of the EU.
Those who possess more loyalty to the EU than they do to the British government.
They're not even asking. I doubt that it has even occurred to them that what the EU are speaking about and planning behind closed doors is no less important than what our own government are working out.

Perhaps to those people they feel that they don't need to know. That whatever the EU are up to behind closed doors must surely be good stuff.
Our own government are pressurised to reveal their inner workings behind the scenes, but the EU aren't held to those same standards.
In fact why have they never been interested in what the EU have been planning and strategising for all these years we've been in the EU when important decisions have been made?
We all ask questions of our own governments, and rightly so, but when it comes to the EU people just let them get on with it with hardly any scrutiny placed on them. And in the mind of the ardent EU supporter no questions are ever asked of them at all.
In this country, whatever our government is, whoever is in power, we all ask questions of them and take them to task all the time. But when it comes to the EU they are for the most part barely on our radar.
Alrightmate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 23:09
outof thepark
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,622
In which case you might like to ask the EU to reveal all.
I thought they already had.
I really don't get this, as someone who I have understood from your posts, want the UK out of the EU lock, stock and barrel, you would not want anything less because that would be what you want to achieve.
Unless you are more worried that the politicians UK and EU are going to come to some agreement, beyound the eyes of the electorate, where you are not going to get what you want but the public will be sold as an "agreement" which is "best for Britian"
outof thepark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 23:25
outof thepark
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,622
No it's about what appears to be comparatively few people who have taken issue based on, in most cases, a dislike of the referendum result. Ask yourself what would have happened had the litigious ones not raised the issue, would using RP have come into question?
Err, but it did because some people raised the issue, or is what you are trying to say is..
It would not have been a problem, because the public are stupid and don't understand what it means.
outof thepark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 23:37
Staunchy
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 9,779
Meanwhile farm produce is rotting away in fields as the flow of migrant pickers has been stemmed.

I hope brexiters are happy.

https://www.ft.com/content/7ceb876c-...e-a1acd97f622d
How strange, only 6 days ago the news was that there were record numbers of immigrants to the UK from the EU.

As the Guardian put it.
Record level of immigration, at 650,000 people, driven by a historically high inflow of 284,000 EU citizens before referendum
Sounds like the farmers aren't spreading sh*t on their fields any more, they are taking it to the papers.
Staunchy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 23:49
welwynrose
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Welwyn Garden City
Posts: 29,549
How strange, only 6 days ago the news was that there were record numbers of immigrants to the UK from the EU.

As the Guardian put it.


Sounds like the farmers aren't spreading sh*t on their fields any more, they are taking it to the papers.

Maybe they're car washers not vegetable pickers
welwynrose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 23:49
Jayceef1
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kent
Posts: 3,039
Interestingly only 5 Lib Dems voted against. Not sure if the others voted with the government or abstained. Would have expected all 9 to vote against.
Those voting against

Alistair Carmichael

Nick Clegg

Tim Farron

Sarah Olney

Mark Williams
Jayceef1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 23:51
rusty123
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 20,693
Well, so many people told us the EU would play hardball that it made me think "Sod 'em. If they feel like that then best thing is to leave them!" Three days before the vote, we were told by Juncker that out is out and we will be the loser! Obama told us we'd be at the back of the queue. So we were told that it would be tough. We still voted to leave.
I came close to going against my own reasoning and giving the EU the two fingered salute courtesy of what Juncker came out with myself, so I can fully appreciate how that sentiment might have stuck with a few on the day.
Thing is, the EU's initial stance is more likely than not going to be to play hardball with us and why wouldn't it be? They'll be aware of the supreme court cases, the talk of soft or no Brexits with the likes of the SNP threatening another independence referendum, the Lib-Dems in total denial and Labour effectively sitting on the fence with their "we have to appease everybody" approach.
If they think we might blink first why rush to concede on anything even if they'd be prepared to because we're currently doing a fine job as a country at looking like we lack the conviction to stomach a 'hard' Brexit. They might think we'll bottle it and actually stay in particularly as nearly half the electorate voted to do exactly that in the first place.

All we're doing at the moment is weakening our own hand. Perhaps by design if you add party political opportunism and Westminster's overwhelming desire not to be having to do what's been asked of it into the mix.
rusty123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 23:56
MARTYM8
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 40,289
Interestingly only 5 Lib Dems voted against. Not sure if the others voted with the government or abstained. Would have expected all 9 to vote against.
Those voting against

Alistair Carmichael

Nick Clegg

Tim Farron

Sarah Olney

Mark Williams

301 Tories and 150 Labour MPs backed the motion plus the DUP, UUP and UKIP MPs

Against were 51 SNP MPs, 23 Labour, the Green MP, the SDLP and two independents from Ulster.

No idea why the other 4 Lib Dums didn't vote - maybe they don't agree with the Farron line? At least two represent areas that voted leave.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...rticle-9412477
MARTYM8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2016, 00:05
Jayceef1
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kent
Posts: 3,039
301 Tories and 150 Labour MPs backed the motion plus the DUP, UUP and UKIP MPs

Against were 51 SNP MPs, 23 Labour, the Green MP, the SDLP and two independents from Ulster.

No idea why the other 4 Lib Dums didn't vote - maybe they don't agree with the Farron line? At least two represent areas that voted leave.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...rticle-9412477
Not forgetting Ken Clarke voting against!!
Jayceef1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2016, 00:26
Andy2
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vault 101, Cheshire
Posts: 10,184
Anyone see Anna Soubry on the news? I thought she was going to burst into tears, flounce off and slam the door!
Andy2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2016, 00:26
MARTYM8
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 40,289
Not forgetting Ken Clarke voting against!!
So that's seven Lib Dems then including him and Anna Soubry!
MARTYM8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2016, 00:30
rusty123
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 20,693
Not forgetting Ken Clarke voting against!!
I think that falls into the "so obvious it was hardly worth mentioning" category
rusty123 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 23:30.