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Greg Lake Dies |
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#51 |
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maybe...... or maybe punks in general really didnt like prog! id suggest not!
![]() ![]() By the time the Punk ethos spread around the country to cities like Manchester and Birmingham in '77 and '78 Punk in its original form had already evolved and splintered. It was the likes of the NME that forwarded the argument that Punk "killed" Prog, which wasn't true at the time and something lazy music journalists still re-cycle today. I think it was from that Punks "hated" Prog because, whilst Prog was commercially successful, it was never "mainstream" or radio friendly. So I wonder at the time how many Punks even knew what Prog was because they would have never heard much of it on the radio or, TOGWT aside, seen it on the TV. |
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#52 |
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But punks as people weren't the same as punk as music. Lydon in particular was influenced by a wide range of alternative musicians from Captain Beefheart to Can and Neu to Third Ear Band (as well as the others cited above). You can tell from PIL, the Damned, even the Clash that musically punk came from a diverse set of influences. Look at Siouxsie and the Banshees - their drummer, Budgie, could hold his own playing very complex drum parts.
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#53 |
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No mention of his death on BBC or ITV 10 o'clock news. I know ELP were a very contentious band and represented the worst excesses of prog-rock to many (something I would agree with), but to not even mention in a line the death of the frontman of a British band that sold 48 million albums worldwide - not to mention released the already mentioned popular Christmas hit - was fairly extraordinary.
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But then in the context of the time, would any self-respecting Punk publically admit a deep-rooted love of the likes of Magma, Foxtrot-era Genesis, or Yes, no matter how much they loved them?
I would suggest not. I think some prog artists thought that aligning with classical music, particularly the idea of virtuoso performance and symphonic form was an 'artistic' direction, adding artistic credibility to rock music but this was spurious. Punk re-emphasised the glory of the 3/4-minute single/song and how paradigmatic that was to rock music. And I dumped Prog Rock then. On the other hand, The Floyd were good and were genuinely progressive with their music but were they really a prog rock band? If all Prog could have been like 'I Believe in Father Christmas', how much better would it all have been? |
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#54 |
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That was the point I was trying to make. Those punks in bands were very much influenced, and liked, what went before them and within that context many did like Prog.
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#55 |
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Off the top of my head John Lydon was a Van Der Graaf Generator and early Pink Floyd fan, Peter hook liked Hawkwind and Deep Purple, I could trawl back through my Prog Magazines and find plenty of other examples...
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#56 |
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The PM programme on Radio 4 did a great feature on Greg.
I don't know. I was a Yes fan, I liked early Genesis (still do), never really liked much ELP but when I heard The Pistols, Siouxsie, Joy Division, The Clash, I realised how artistically limited most Prog Rock actually was. I think some prog artists thought that aligning with classical music, particularly the idea of virtuoso performance and symphonic form was an 'artistic' direction, adding artistic credibility to rock music but this was spurious. Punk re-emphasised the glory of the 3/4-minute single/song and how paradigmatic that was to rock music. And I dumped Prog Rock then. On the other hand, The Floyd were good and were genuinely progressive with their music but were they really a prog rock band? If all Prog could have been like 'I Believe in Father Christmas', how much better would it all have been? But then I would also say the same about punk! ![]() Siouxsie & The Banshees and Joy Division were brilliant, but then were either of them truly "Punk"? They were certainly inspired by The Pistols, but that is about all. In saying that, though, I did see ELPs final gig, @ High Voltage in 2010 and I could certainly appreciate their musicianship!! |
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#57 |
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It was the likes of the NME that forwarded the argument that Punk "killed" Prog, which wasn't true at the time and something lazy music journalists still re-cycle today. I think it was from that Punks "hated" Prog because, whilst Prog was commercially successful, it was never "mainstream" or radio friendly. So I wonder at the time how many Punks even knew what Prog was because they would have never heard much of it on the radio or, TOGWT aside, seen it on the TV.
What is wrongly claimed is that British punk was influenced by The Ramones and The Stooges. People were aware of them because of US-based writers in both MM and NME, but they had only a tiny following in this country. I was a long-time follower of prog-rock, starting with King Crimson, then moving on through Yes, Genesis and Pink Floyd (stopping at Animals), plus more hippie, left-field stuff such as Steve Hillage, Amon Duul II, Wishbone Ash and even daft stuff such as early Queen. Then, on a return visit to my old college, I was sitting out on the lawn and suddenly heard something blaring out of a window which I could only think sounded like the best thing The Who had ever done. It turned out to be God Save The Queen by the Sex Pistols and my whole life changed within a space of three minutes. Shortly after that, Rick Wakemen committed hara kiri with a pompous letter about punk which Melody Maker featured in full (and which he later regretted). Melody Maker continued to champion prog-rock and went into a nose dive. NME firmly championed punk and enjoyed a massive increase in sales. My public LP collection was suddenly full of Buzzcocks, Generation X and Siouxsie & The Banshees, while my suddenly shameful oldies were either hidden away in a cupboard or flogged at car boot sales. The only ones I kept were The Yes Album and Fragile and Relayer (the latter for being so utterly over-the-top and bonkers), Foxtrot and In The Court Of The Crimson King, although that was mainly for Schiziod Man and the gatefold sleeve. |
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#58 |
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You could hardly be more wrong. Prog rock was the mainstream at that time – you couldn't escape it. Even John Lydon was a fan of Van der Graaf Generator. Listen to Nadir's Big Chance by Peter Hammill and think where you might have heard that regurgitated at a later date.
The four members of Pink Floyd could walk down any high street and virtually no one would have known who they were, something that couldn't be said for members of The Osmonds, Bay City Rollers, Gilbert O'Sullivan, David Essex, etc. |
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#59 |
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However it wasn't something you would hear regularly on the likes of Radio 1 or TOTP, quite the opposite. It was very much the prerogative of The Old Grey Whistle Test.
The four members of Pink Floyd could walk down any high street and virtually no one would have known who they were, something that couldn't be said for members of The Osmonds, Bay City Rollers, Gilbert O'Sullivan, David Essex, etc. Many of the artists you mention probably could have walked down the streets unnoticed if they had been wearing normal clothes. They would obviously have stood out in glltter boots with 2-inch platform soles. |
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#60 |
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I think you are mixing prog rock up with glam rock?
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#61 |
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Listening to RadMac last week and they played Fleetwood Mac's Tusk and saying that it was rumoured (sic get it?
) that it was Lindsey Buckingham's attempt at making a punk record! ![]() The Ledge sounded nothing like any track on Rumours. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuQFnVKrHuY |
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#62 |
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But punks as people weren't the same as punk as music. Lydon in particular was influenced by a wide range of alternative musicians from Captain Beefheart to Can and Neu to Third Ear Band (as well as the others cited above). You can tell from PIL, the Damned, even the Clash that musically punk came from a diverse set of influences. Look at Siouxsie and the Banshees - their drummer, Budgie, could hold his own playing very complex drum parts.
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But that is an un-quantifiable argument because punk was really a reaction against the state of the country with mass unemployment, etc, and was, really, a London-based phenomenon.
By the time the Punk ethos spread around the country to cities like Manchester and Birmingham in '77 and '78 Punk in its original form had already evolved and splintered. It was the likes of the NME that forwarded the argument that Punk "killed" Prog, which wasn't true at the time and something lazy music journalists still re-cycle today. I think it was from that Punks "hated" Prog because, whilst Prog was commercially successful, it was never "mainstream" or radio friendly. So I wonder at the time how many Punks even knew what Prog was because they would have never heard much of it on the radio or, TOGWT aside, seen it on the TV. i accept its unquantifiable, hence i made it clear that im speaking from my own experience and was not speaking for the whole country. but i do see punk as a generational shift, the sort that occurred every few years or so in british pop music. there was one when the beat boom came in, mods and rockers. there was one in the early 70's when a new generation embraced glam, and this went on until the turn of the century. each time a new trend emerged, it came from a new generation of young music fans. and these more often then not did this whilst rejecting the previous trend. i knew prog fans, i knew punk fans, these styles were so opposite i didnt know anyone who claimed to like both... prog fans i knew certainly hated punk, and vice versa... i have no reason to suppose this wasnt a general feeling on a wider scale. |
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#63 |
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Are you saying that there is still a hatred of Prog after all this time?
I know a lot of celebrities have "come out" as prog fans in recent years (Al Murray, Jeremy Clarkson, Gavin Esler, Matthew Wright, David Baddiel, Guy Garvey etc.). But it remains the case that people like Jools Holland won't touch it with a barge pole and give it any exposure (unless it's the "icons" who've kind of transcended the genre like David Gilmour and Peter Gabriel). |
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#64 |
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The PM programme on Radio 4 did a great feature on Greg.
I still think no mention whatever on the 10 o'oclock bulletins was quite odd. But maybe a decision was made that ELP have no lasting legacy to music despite their huge album sales? Quote:
On the other hand, The Floyd were good and were genuinely progressive with their music but were they really a prog rock band?
![]() It's also worth remembering that Floyd went BADLY out of fashion for a while. I remember Weller slagging off what Floyd became in the '70s and saying he went right off them (even though he was a big fan of Barrett). I also once remember reading a comment attributed to Fish where he was waxing lyrical about what a brilliant album "The Final Cut" was and how pissed off he was that it had been largely ignored because "it was so unhip to like anything by the Floyd". |
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#65 |
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Pink Floyd are almost beyond pigeonholing into genres. I would say Atom Heart Mother was a progressive rock album, but is it possible to be progressive without being prog?
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#66 |
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Pink Floyd are almost beyond pigeonholing into genres. I would say Atom Heart Mother was a progressive rock album, but is it possible to be progressive without being prog?
Early Floyd (Barrett era) is psychedelic pop/rock. Meddle onwards is prog. That's why people like Weller went off them and why Lydon wore a "I Hate Pink Floyd" t-shirt for effect. |
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#67 |
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Personally, I think people who try to make out Pink Floyd weren't prog are just trying to be cool by finding a way to explain why they feel justified to own and enjoy Pink Floyd's records while distancing themselves from the likes of Yes and ELP in case their street cred is under threat.
Early Floyd (Barrett era) is psychedelic pop/rock. Meddle onwards is prog. That's why people like Weller went off them and why Lydon wore a "I Hate Pink Floyd" t-shirt for effect. |
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#68 |
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Personally, I think people who try to make out Pink Floyd weren't prog are just trying to be cool by finding a way to explain why they feel justified to own and enjoy Pink Floyd's records while distancing themselves from the likes of Yes and ELP in case their street cred is under threat.
Early Floyd (Barrett era) is psychedelic pop/rock. Meddle onwards is prog. That's why people like Weller went off them and why Lydon wore a "I Hate Pink Floyd" t-shirt for effect. loved the 60's material - hated the 70's material.... but hey ho, just personal taste. |
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#69 |
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Though Lydon's a fan of Peter Hammill, the main man of the very prog Van der Graaf Generator
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#70 |
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pink floyd to me are like stevie wonder
loved the 60's material - hated the 70's material.... but hey ho, just personal taste.
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) that it was Lindsey Buckingham's attempt at making a punk record!