The tabloid obsession with demonsing 'elites' and 'Experts' is worrying. The media - owned by rich and powerful people intent on staying that way - are trying to undermine and intimidate sources of dissent and criticism. It's got shades of Mao's Cultural Revolution.
Is the Labour Party finished as a force in British politics?
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Originally Posted by hoppyuppy:
“You are a laugh lecturing about intellect.
Your views on international affairs when you deliberately misspell laissez-faire and kowtow in a previous post are total classics.
”
“You are a laugh lecturing about intellect.
Your views on international affairs when you deliberately misspell laissez-faire and kowtow in a previous post are total classics.
”
Jeaneous.
Am I getting lectured about spelling by a Kipper by any chance?
Have anything whatsoever to say about the issues?
Originally Posted by trevgo:
“Jeaneous.
Am I getting lectured about spelling by a Kipper by any chance?
Have anything whatsoever to say about the issues?”
“Jeaneous.
Am I getting lectured about spelling by a Kipper by any chance?
Have anything whatsoever to say about the issues?”
I was joking and I don't vote, ever. Are you ever right?
Originally Posted by chameleon212:
“They are history. UKIP has shown itself to be the true voice of the working classes and is the real opposition to the Tory party.
If we had proportional representation instead of the ridiculous FPTP system UKIP would have far more influence in Parliament.”
“They are history. UKIP has shown itself to be the true voice of the working classes and is the real opposition to the Tory party.
If we had proportional representation instead of the ridiculous FPTP system UKIP would have far more influence in Parliament.”
Does anyone seriously believe that UKIP are 'the true voice of the working classes'?
When you strip away UKIP's populist rhetoric, I can't believe that voters in post industrial working class areas would really be too enamoured by politicians that favour the destruction of the NHS and Thatcherite economic policies.
Unfortunately, the kippers have been rather good at dressing up their anti working class views to appear as something entirely different.
Originally Posted by Lyricalis:
“That's an odd argument. You're saying that the Tories aren't finished because they've had declining support in the past and then recovered, and then you claim Labour and the Lib Dems are broken in pieces, and yet they've also declined and grown again in the past.
The reason I think the Tories are in real trouble is because I think they'ill have to change far more than the other parties will have to in order to introduce policies that will stem the decline in the living standards of a growing percentage of the UK population. They'll need another person as transformative as Thatcher was to survive in the long term (also true of the other parties to some extent), and you can't predict if or when someone like that will arrive, and which party it'll happen to.”
“That's an odd argument. You're saying that the Tories aren't finished because they've had declining support in the past and then recovered, and then you claim Labour and the Lib Dems are broken in pieces, and yet they've also declined and grown again in the past.
The reason I think the Tories are in real trouble is because I think they'ill have to change far more than the other parties will have to in order to introduce policies that will stem the decline in the living standards of a growing percentage of the UK population. They'll need another person as transformative as Thatcher was to survive in the long term (also true of the other parties to some extent), and you can't predict if or when someone like that will arrive, and which party it'll happen to.”
The Tories are "the natural party of government" and I'd give them a far better chance of survival and transformation than Labour.
Originally Posted by Tassium:
“It's strange that in an economy such as this that Labour are not miles ahead everywhere in England/Wales.
And it is Jeremy Corbyn who is the cause of this. Not his ideology but simply him.
The party leader needs to be the logo of the brand.”
“It's strange that in an economy such as this that Labour are not miles ahead everywhere in England/Wales.
And it is Jeremy Corbyn who is the cause of this. Not his ideology but simply him.
The party leader needs to be the logo of the brand.”
Way too simplistic just to blame Corbyn. Voters all over the western world are rejecting the kind of faux 'social democracy' espoused by Blair, Clinton, the EU etc so not too sure how much voter traction there is for Labour to revert back to those days either.
As much as I like him, Corbyn is part of the problem though and a Labour Party led by someone with similar views to Corbyn but a better commutator free from his political baggage would fare better in the polls. Although exactly how much better is open to debate.
Originally Posted by The Backbencher:
“Does anyone seriously believe that UKIP are 'the true voice of the working classes'?
When you strip away UKIP's populist rhetoric, I can't believe that voters in post industrial working class areas would really be too enamoured by politicians that favour the destruction of the NHS and Thatcherite economic policies.
Unfortunately, the kippers have been rather good at dressing up their anti working class views to appear as something entirely different.”
“Does anyone seriously believe that UKIP are 'the true voice of the working classes'?
When you strip away UKIP's populist rhetoric, I can't believe that voters in post industrial working class areas would really be too enamoured by politicians that favour the destruction of the NHS and Thatcherite economic policies.
Unfortunately, the kippers have been rather good at dressing up their anti working class views to appear as something entirely different.”
Obviously some millions do. You are entitled to disagree with them.
Originally Posted by Tassium:
“It's strange that in an economy such as this that Labour are not miles ahead everywhere in England/Wales.
And it is Jeremy Corbyn who is the cause of this. Not his ideology but simply him.
The party leader needs to be the logo of the brand.”
“It's strange that in an economy such as this that Labour are not miles ahead everywhere in England/Wales.
And it is Jeremy Corbyn who is the cause of this. Not his ideology but simply him.
The party leader needs to be the logo of the brand.”
Labour was doing okay before the Chicken Coup - starting to achieve parity in the polls, holding by-elections comfortably. Then came the disastrous attempt to unseat Corbyn, the leadership election and the current stalemate where too many significant figures are sulking on the back benches. I think that had more of an impact - and the elevation of Theresa May rubbed salt in the wounds.
Let's see how things are in six months.
Originally Posted by Radlestort:
“Labour was doing okay before the Chicken Coup - starting to achieve parity in the polls, holding by-elections comfortably. Then came the disastrous attempt to unseat Corbyn, the leadership election and the current stalemate where too many significant figures are sulking on the back benches. I think that had more of an impact - and the elevation of Theresa May rubbed salt in the wounds.
Let's see how things are in six months.”
“Labour was doing okay before the Chicken Coup - starting to achieve parity in the polls, holding by-elections comfortably. Then came the disastrous attempt to unseat Corbyn, the leadership election and the current stalemate where too many significant figures are sulking on the back benches. I think that had more of an impact - and the elevation of Theresa May rubbed salt in the wounds.
Let's see how things are in six months.”
All really fair points.
As much as I think the media and 'the establishment' have done everything in their power to tarnish Corbyn in the eyes of voters, the PLP's decision to stage a coup in the immediate aftermath of Brexit with the Tories in chaos was an absolute disgrace.
They are finished unless they can stop the petty in-fighting and backbiting.
It is not just Corbyn that is seen as unelectable.
And they should just tell that scumbag Blair to **** off.
It is not just Corbyn that is seen as unelectable.
And they should just tell that scumbag Blair to **** off.
The Labour Party finished? Probably not, politics is a strange, dirty and volatile world. At the moment, despite their spin, lies, selfishness and cruelty, the Tory party is on top of the Westminster manure heap. But that will change in a trice when the Brexit horrors begin to settle on the shoulders of those who voted for them. Corbyn, if he is still leader, is being vindicated daily but faces continuing relentless character assassination by the rabid right-wing press. That cannot continue, and as the illusions of the rosy, cosy post-Brexit world crumble and the harsh realities are exposed people will turn back to Labour as their only salvation. In the meantime hovering over the feast is the ominous prospect as Boris J as the next Tory leader and PM. Arghhhh!!
Originally Posted by LostFool:
“Interesting piece in today's "Islington" Guardian about Carwyn Jones saying how Labour policy on immigration is "too London-centric and risks driving Labour supporters into the arms of Ukip"
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...first-minister”
“Interesting piece in today's "Islington" Guardian about Carwyn Jones saying how Labour policy on immigration is "too London-centric and risks driving Labour supporters into the arms of Ukip"
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...first-minister”
The problem for Labour is that immigrants are much more likely to vote Labour (reportedly 68% voted Labour at the last election and just 16% Conservative) . Closing the door to immigrants would cut off the supply of new labour voters. Indeed, the cynical might even think that was why Blair opened the floodgates of mass immigration in the first place.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38274634
Corbyn event gets disrupted by Peter Tatchell and his cronies
Obviously a conspiracy by the right wing mainstream med...... oh wait, maybe not.
Corbyn event gets disrupted by Peter Tatchell and his cronies
Obviously a conspiracy by the right wing mainstream med...... oh wait, maybe not.
Originally Posted by trevgo:
“It's a tragedy for our democracy, as currently it's a one party state. The electoral system is at the root of it all.”
“It's a tragedy for our democracy, as currently it's a one party state. The electoral system is at the root of it all.”
I can't see the connection between the voting system and the current state of the Labour Party.
c
It's an electoral either/or/flip/flop between the two main parties. Always has been. The Tories were dumped after Thatcher and Major, and then Blair and Brown went the same say. The same will happen to May. The problem is that in the meantime Brexit will have done it's terrible damage to the nation, which will wake up naked, cold, poor, isolated and despised.
Originally Posted by mungobrush:
“I can't see the connection between the voting system and the current state of the Labour Party.”
“I can't see the connection between the voting system and the current state of the Labour Party.”
It's an electoral either/or/flip/flop between the two main parties. Always has been. The Tories were dumped after Thatcher and Major, and then Blair and Brown went the same say. The same will happen to May. The problem is that in the meantime Brexit will have done it's terrible damage to the nation, which will wake up naked, cold, poor, isolated and despised.
Originally Posted by Mr Oleo Strut:
“c
It's an electoral either/or/flip/flop between the two main parties. Always has been. The Tories were dumped after Thatcher and Major, and then Blair and Brown went the same say. The same will happen to May. The problem is that in the meantime Brexit will have done it's terrible damage to the nation, which will wake up naked, cold, poor, isolated and despised.”
“c
It's an electoral either/or/flip/flop between the two main parties. Always has been. The Tories were dumped after Thatcher and Major, and then Blair and Brown went the same say. The same will happen to May. The problem is that in the meantime Brexit will have done it's terrible damage to the nation, which will wake up naked, cold, poor, isolated and despised.”
Try not to worry too much about Brexit, you don't want people to think you're a bit of a drama queen 😀 naked, cold, poor, isolated and despised indeed. Thanks for laughs though.
Originally Posted by onecitizen:
“Try not to worry too much about Brexit, you don't want people to think you're a bit of a drama queen 😀 naked, cold, poor, isolated and despised indeed. Thanks for laughs though.”
“Try not to worry too much about Brexit, you don't want people to think you're a bit of a drama queen 😀 naked, cold, poor, isolated and despised indeed. Thanks for laughs though.”
Is that the cackle of demented laughter from the madhouse? I do hope not!
Originally Posted by Boo Radley75:
“No, of course not. They are the second largest party in the UK today.”
“No, of course not. They are the second largest party in the UK today.”
Correction, they are the largest left of centre party in Europe today, they have more members than all the other UK political parties combined (you won't see or hear that repeated often on the BBC, SKY news or any other Tory/anti Corbyn mouth piece)
check this graphic out for just one example of the media at work.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/cc955...sm=12&fit=max&
For those who don't like opening links, it reads,
1995, Blair's first local elections, 46% of Labour councillors won, "Landslide victory for Blair
2006, Cameron's first local elections, 41% of Tory councillors won, "best Tory result for years"
2016 Corbyn's first local elections, 47% of Labour councillors won, "disaster for Corbyn"
Originally Posted by paulschapman:
“No more so than 1983 when Labour published the longest suicide note in history under Michael Foot.”
“No more so than 1983 when Labour published the longest suicide note in history under Michael Foot.”
Correct.
Originally Posted by Aristaeus:
“This was the same manifesto which saw them jump 5 percentage points in the polls immediately after it's release?
And Foot was consistantly ahead in the polls up until the Falklands war, which gave the Tories a 15-20% boost in the polls.”
“This was the same manifesto which saw them jump 5 percentage points in the polls immediately after it's release?
And Foot was consistantly ahead in the polls up until the Falklands war, which gave the Tories a 15-20% boost in the polls.”
They should have gone for Dennis Healey. He would have done far better
Originally Posted by Tassium:
“Labour might easily end up forming a coalition with the LibDems at the next general election.
Not a strong government, but neither was the last coalition.”
“Labour might easily end up forming a coalition with the LibDems at the next general election.
Not a strong government, but neither was the last coalition.”
With less than 200 seats ??????
Originally Posted by Aristaeus:
“Highly unlikely. Under the Tory's boundary changes, Labour would have to beat the Tories by many percentage points in an election just to get a hung parliament.”
“Highly unlikely. Under the Tory's boundary changes, Labour would have to beat the Tories by many percentage points in an election just to get a hung parliament.”
They are not Tory Boundary changes.
Originally Posted by Aristaeus:
“They had started to improve, but Labour and Foot were still consistently in the lead in the vast majority of polls, bar one or two. You just have to look at the graph at the top of your link to see the effect the Falklands had on the polls.”
“They had started to improve, but Labour and Foot were still consistently in the lead in the vast majority of polls, bar one or two. You just have to look at the graph at the top of your link to see the effect the Falklands had on the polls.”
The Falklands war made the floating voters realise that Foot was not the man to defend this Country.
Originally Posted by OLD HIPPY GUY:
“Correction, they are the largest left of centre party in Europe today, they have more members than all the other UK political parties combined (you won't see or hear that repeated often on the BBC, SKY news or any other Tory/anti Corbyn mouth piece)
check this graphic out for just one example of the media at work.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/cc955...sm=12&fit=max&
For those who don't like opening links, it reads,
1995, Blair's first local elections, 46% of Labour councillors won, "Landslide victory for Blair
2006, Cameron's first local elections, 41% of Tory councillors won, "best Tory result for years"
2016 Corbyn's first local elections, 47% of Labour councillors won, "disaster for Corbyn" ”
“Correction, they are the largest left of centre party in Europe today, they have more members than all the other UK political parties combined (you won't see or hear that repeated often on the BBC, SKY news or any other Tory/anti Corbyn mouth piece)
check this graphic out for just one example of the media at work.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/cc955...sm=12&fit=max&
For those who don't like opening links, it reads,
1995, Blair's first local elections, 46% of Labour councillors won, "Landslide victory for Blair
2006, Cameron's first local elections, 41% of Tory councillors won, "best Tory result for years"
2016 Corbyn's first local elections, 47% of Labour councillors won, "disaster for Corbyn" ”
All true but as much as I'm sympathetic to many of Corbyn's ideas and respect him as a decent man, do you really believe that he's going to be able to deliver a Labour majority at the next GE? Or, indeed, start to significantly turn things around in Scotland and re-engage with traditional Labour voters who've bought into the UKIP rhetoric?
I am not really sure what Corbyn stands for. There are no clear policies and its all about presentation and claiming the narrative.
Originally Posted by Get Den Watts:
“The Tories are "the natural party of government" and I'd give them a far better chance of survival and transformation than Labour.”
“The Tories are "the natural party of government" and I'd give them a far better chance of survival and transformation than Labour.”
Just because someone makes a claim about themselves doesn't make it true.
[quote=pixel_pixel;84849396]I am not really sure what Corbyn stands for. There are no clear policies and its all about presentation and claiming the narrative.[/QUOTE]
really?
I would say the opposite is true.
really?
I would say the opposite is true.
The Labour Party was founded by the Trade Unions to represent their interests.
If Labour is wiped out then it would be a fair bet thet the Unions will very quietly move their support to those who might be able to represent them better.
Anyone know what the relationship between the SNP and the Unions in Scotland is like ?
Might be a big clue.
If Labour is wiped out then it would be a fair bet thet the Unions will very quietly move their support to those who might be able to represent them better.
Anyone know what the relationship between the SNP and the Unions in Scotland is like ?
Might be a big clue.
Originally Posted by OLD HIPPY GUY:
“Correction, they are the largest left of centre party in Europe today, they have more members than all the other UK political parties combined (you won't see or hear that repeated often on the BBC, SKY news or any other Tory/anti Corbyn mouth piece)
check this graphic out for just one example of the media at work.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/cc955...sm=12&fit=max&
For those who don't like opening links, it reads,
1995, Blair's first local elections, 46% of Labour councillors won, "Landslide victory for Blair
2006, Cameron's first local elections, 41% of Tory councillors won, "best Tory result for years"
2016 Corbyn's first local elections, 47% of Labour councillors won, "disaster for Corbyn" ”
“Correction, they are the largest left of centre party in Europe today, they have more members than all the other UK political parties combined (you won't see or hear that repeated often on the BBC, SKY news or any other Tory/anti Corbyn mouth piece)
check this graphic out for just one example of the media at work.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/cc955...sm=12&fit=max&
For those who don't like opening links, it reads,
1995, Blair's first local elections, 46% of Labour councillors won, "Landslide victory for Blair
2006, Cameron's first local elections, 41% of Tory councillors won, "best Tory result for years"
2016 Corbyn's first local elections, 47% of Labour councillors won, "disaster for Corbyn" ”
Yes, that's all very nice, but totally irrelevant in terms of whether Labour will ever form another government in the next 20 or 30 years.
Those who waste their time with polls can save themselves a lot of bother by just saying 'highly unlikely' instead of coming up with bullshit figures. Job done.
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