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Old 09-12-2016, 22:39
Ash_M1
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A detailed and well-reasoned argument to which I have no counter argument. Congratulations.
Given that you are incorrect in your utterings, there is no argument.
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Old 09-12-2016, 22:42
chameleon212
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I'm sorry, but Britain First is racist. It has been discussed to death and only racists say it isn't racist. If you disagree, may I suggest you read the last sentence again. Saying something is racist that is racist is not preventing discussion, it is stating a fact.
I am not denying people have died in the name of far right causes in this country. I am saying that Islamic extremism has been responsible for FAR more deaths.

Are the black, Sikh and gay members of Britain First all racists then?

And why would a racist organisation accept Muslims in their ranks as long as they are willing to fight against their own religions extremist elements.

Movements like Britain First can only be taken over by the far right if we let them.

If you simply dismiss anti-extremist groups as racist then that is what they will become as only racists will want to join them.

If normal people accepted the offer to fight extremism despite creed or colour then the far right elements would be displaced and Britain First could become a credible opposition to Islamic extremists.

Attitudes like yours simply empower the far right who remain the only group of people actively fighting extremism.

This could all change if people would be willing to give UKIP a chance and elect a political party who will fight extremism with a moderate approach.

The alternative is we continue fighting it out on the streets.
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Old 09-12-2016, 22:43
chameleon212
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Given that you are incorrect in your utterings, there is no argument.
Given that you have failed to demonstrate why I am incorrect, you have no argument yourself.

EDIT.

Just realised you are replying on that posters behalf, it's difficult when you all say exactly the same thing...
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Old 09-12-2016, 22:51
BanglaRoad
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I am not denying people have died in the name of far right causes in this country. I am saying that Islamic extremism has been responsible for FAR more deaths.

Are the black, Sikh and gay members of Britain First all racists then?

And why would a racist organisation accept Muslims in their ranks as long as they are willing to fight against their own religions extremist elements.

Movements like Britain First can only be taken over by the far right if we let them.

If you simply dismiss anti-extremist groups as racist then that is what they will become as only racists will want to join them.

If normal people accepted the offer to fight extremism despite creed or colour then the far right elements would be displaced and Britain First could become a credible opposition to Islamic extremists.

Attitudes like yours simply empower the far right who remain the only group of people actively fighting extremism.

This could all change if people would be willing to give UKIP a chance and elect a political party who will fight extremism with a moderate approach.

The alternative is we continue fighting it out on the streets.
BF aren't actively fighting extremism.
They are actively harassing and intimidating innocent British people who have done nothing wrong.
It is a group of cowardly ignorant bullies
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Old 09-12-2016, 22:51
Penny Crayon
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I am not denying people have died in the name of far right causes in this country. I am saying that Islamic extremism has been responsible for FAR more deaths.

Are the black, Sikh and gay members of Britain First all racists then?

And why would a racist organisation accept Muslims in their ranks as long as they are willing to fight against their own religions extremist elements.

Movements like Britain First can only be taken over by the far right if we let them.

If you simply dismiss anti-extremist groups as racist then that is what they will become as only racists will want to join them.

If normal people accepted the offer to fight extremism despite creed or colour then the far right elements would be displaced and Britain First could become a credible opposition to Islamic extremists.

Attitudes like yours simply empower the far right who remain the only group of people actively fighting extremism.

This could all change if people would be willing to give UKIP a chance and elect a political party who will fight extremism with a moderate approach.

The alternative is we continue fighting it out on the streets.
But they are the far right aren't they
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Old 09-12-2016, 22:54
Ash_M1
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Given that you have failed to demonstrate why I am incorrect, you have no argument yourself.

EDIT.

Just realised you are replying on that posters behalf, it's difficult when you all say exactly the same thing...
I have explained at every turn why you are wrong. You are wrong in all that you say re: The BBC and you are wrong to try to paint the Britain First as a mainstream cuddly group with a worthy mission.

Britain First are extremists. They are racists. Call them out for what they are. There is your challenge. Let's see if you do. If you don't, my suspicions are confirmed.

No-one in this country should have any truck with these right-wing groups. They are bad for Britain.
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Old 09-12-2016, 22:57
chameleon212
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But they are the far right aren't they
There are far right elements within the movement, that doesn't make the movement as a whole far right.

They wish to combat Islamic extremism, that has always been their goal and there are still some members of the organisation who are true to that goal. We can either join them or leave it to the far right to take over and turn it into one of their own movements.

Even better we can elect a realist party like UKIP and fight extremism properly instead of on the streets.
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Old 09-12-2016, 22:59
chameleon212
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I have explained at every turn why you are wrong. You are wrong in all that you say re: The BBC and you are wrong to try to paint the Britain First as a mainstream cuddly group with a worthy mission.

Britain First are extremists. They are racists. Call them out for what they are. There is your challenge. Let's see if you do. If you don't, my suspicions are confirmed.

No-one in this country should have any truck with these right-wing groups. They are bad for Britain.
Never portrayed Britain First as such. I have acknowledged there are far right elements in the group and that they are not the best way to combat extremism. I say again, UKIP are the best solution against extremism as they would dispose of it in a civilised manner.

You can keep throwing out the same tired labels, they are losing their meaning and nobody will take you seriously anymore.

There are racists within Britain First, there I've said it again.

Attitudes like yours are the reason organisations with legitimate goals get overtaken by racists.

Unless you believe combating extremism is not a legitimate goal...
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Old 09-12-2016, 22:59
Penny Crayon
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There are far right elements within the movement, that doesn't make the movement as a whole far right.

They wish to combat Islamic extremism, that has always been their goal and there are still some members of the organisation who are true to that goal. We can either join them or leave it to the far right to take over and turn it into one of their own movements.

Even better we can elect a realist party like UKIP and fight extremism properly instead of on the streets.
Oh ........i see - there's just far right elements. Why does all their recruiting/leaflets/info etc. seemed designed to appeal to the far right? Are they after increasing this 'element' or something?
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Old 09-12-2016, 23:02
Penny Crayon
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Never portrayed Britain First as such. I have acknowledged there are far right elements in the group and that they are not the best way to combat extremism. I say again, UKIP are the best solution against extremism as they would dispose of it in a civilised manner.

You can keep throwing out the same tired labels, they are losing their meaning and nobody will take you seriously anymore.

There are racists within Britain First, there I've said it again.

Attitudes like yours are the reason organisations with legitimate goals get overtaken by racists.

Unless you believe combating extremism is not a legitimate goal...
What attitudes would they be? Reasonable, fair minded and anti racist?

Sorry - you really are making very little sense to me.
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Old 09-12-2016, 23:03
Ash_M1
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There are far right elements within the movement, that doesn't make the movement as a whole far right.

They wish to combat Islamic extremism, that has always been their goal and there are still some members of the organisation who are true to that goal. We can either join them or leave it to the far right to take over and turn it into one of their own movements.

Even better we can elect a realist party like UKIP and fight extremism properly instead of on the streets.
They are a far-right extremist outfit. Call them out for what they are. It is laughable to think that a group like them is attempting to fight extremism when their attitudes and activities has the opposite affect. They incite hate and intolerance. BF simply pour petrol onto the fire in a deeply irresponsible way.

UKIP aren't the answer either. Another party which peddles division and hate. All these far-right groups need to be defeated.
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Old 09-12-2016, 23:03
chameleon212
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Oh ........i see - there's just far right elements. Why does all their recruiting/leaflets/info etc. seemed designed to appeal to the far right? Are they after increasing this 'element' or something?
They are designed to recruit people who want to fight extremism on the streets rather than people who want to elect politicians to combat it on their behalf via legislation and foreign policy.

I do not agree with the former approach but at the moment it is the only proactive fight against extremism that exists.

This is why it is crucial people take UKIP seriously. They will tackle extremism the proper way.
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Old 09-12-2016, 23:06
Penny Crayon
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They are designed to recruit people who want to fight extremism on the streets rather than people who want to elect politicians to combat it on their behalf via legislation and foreign policy.

I do not agree with the former approach but at the moment it is the only proactive fight against extremism that exists.

This is why it is crucial people take UKIP seriously. They will tackle extremism the proper way.
What is 'the proper way'?
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Old 09-12-2016, 23:06
chameleon212
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They are a far-right extremist outfit. Call them out for what they are. It is laughable to think that a group like them is attempting to fight extremism when their attitudes and activities has the opposite affect. They incite hate and intolerance. BF simply pour petrol onto the fire in a deeply irresponsible way.

UKIP aren't the answer either. Another party which peddles division and hate. All these far-right groups need to be defeated.
And what solution have Labour or the Conservatives offered?

Of course there is division. It's us vs the extremists. That division existed long before UKIP and the hate has originated from the types of Islamic extremist who wish to slaughter our indigenous population.

To say UKIP is causing division is short sighted, they are responding to it by calling a spade a spade.

Denying the hate and division that already exists is the domain of establishment parties and people are sick of it.
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Old 09-12-2016, 23:08
BanglaRoad
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And what solution have Labour or the Conservatives offered?

Of course there is division. It's us vs the extremists. That division existed long before UKIP and the hate has originated from the types of Islamic extremist who wish to slaughter our indigenous population.

To say UKIP is causing division is short sighted, they are responding to it by calling a spade a spade.

Denying the hate and division that already exists is the domain of establishment parties and people are sick of it.
You are doing a fair job of denying the hate that spews out of BF.
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Old 09-12-2016, 23:09
Ash_M1
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Never portrayed Britain First as such. I have acknowledged there are far right elements in the group and that they are not the best way to combat extremism. I say again, UKIP are the best solution against extremism as they would dispose of it in a civilised manner.

You can keep throwing out the same tired labels, they are losing their meaning and nobody will take you seriously anymore.

There are racists within Britain First, there I've said it again.

Attitudes like yours are the reason organisations with legitimate goals get overtaken by racists.

Unless you believe combating extremism is not a legitimate goal...
Your whole tone (on several occasions) led me to the conclusion I drew. You have repeatedly attempted to say that BF are not an extremist group when they blatantly are. Ookip are a dreadful outfit too. Look at that racist poster Farrage pushed on the day Jo Cox was murdered. Appalling.

I am not casual when it comes to matters of racism. I call it out wherever I see it. I won't tolerate it. Thank goodness the majority of the UK populous is of the same mindset. It is down to people like me to stamp out those who hold unacceptable views.

Why am I still feeding you? I just can't let the nonsense you peddle go unchallenged.
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Old 09-12-2016, 23:12
chameleon212
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What is 'the proper way'?
Draft policies that specifically tackle the cause of hatred and division.

Do away with faith schools that teach Muslim children they are different from the rest of us.

Tackle known extremist hate preachers in universities and mosques. They are filmed spreading hate and vitriol all the time yet nobody does anything about it.

If somebody is caught preaching division in the name of Islam, ban them from universities. Shut down the mosques that facilitate this or at least remove their charitable status to show them we have zero tolerance for extremist behaviour.

Restrict immigration from primarily Islamic countries and refuse to take in large quantities of refugees without proper screening. Women and children should always take priority over young, fighting age males who seem to be the only types we are letting in.

Do away with Sharia courts in the UK. They may not be legally binding YET but it is the first step to legitimising this barbaric, undemocratic legal system.

These are a few things I would suggest to a political party who are serious about tackling extremism.

I can't imagine Labour or the Conservatives doing anything of the sort and this is why groups like Britain First will try to fix the problem themselves.
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Old 09-12-2016, 23:16
human nature
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There are far right elements within the movement, that doesn't make the movement as a whole far right.

They wish to combat Islamic extremism, that has always been their goal and there are still some members of the organisation who are true to that goal. We can either join them or leave it to the far right to take over and turn it into one of their own movements.

Even better we can elect a realist party like UKIP and fight extremism properly instead of on the streets.
What many of your posts clearly demonstrate is that you have very strongly held political views and you feel anyone who disagrees with those views is wrong.

This explains why you believe the BBC is biased. You see something on the BBC that you don't agree with and you automatically conclude that the BBC must therefore be biased against your point of view.

The BBC tries to represent a broad range of views in its programmes - which is why it is regularly criticised by people on all sides of the debate. You are no different.
The reality is that it's you that is biased.
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Old 09-12-2016, 23:16
Ash_M1
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And what solution have Labour or the Conservatives offered?

Of course there is division. It's us vs the extremists. That division existed long before UKIP and the hate has originated from the types of Islamic extremist who wish to slaughter our indigenous population.

To say UKIP is causing division is short sighted, they are responding to it by calling a spade a spade.

Denying the hate and division that already exists is the domain of establishment parties and people are sick of it.
This govt, the coalition and the Labour govt have done lots to tackle extremism. One thing is to not allow extremist views to go unchallenged!!!!

The far-right (incl. Ookip) are part of the problem. The sooner they are defeated, the better.
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Old 09-12-2016, 23:23
Ash_M1
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Draft policies that specifically tackle the cause of hatred and division.
aka - Ookip/BF?

Do away with faith schools that teach Muslim children they are different from the rest of us.
You reveal your prejudice. You should be opposed to all faith schools not just muslim schools!

Tackle known extremist hate preachers in universities and mosques. They are filmed spreading hate and vitriol all the time yet nobody does anything about it.
I agree. Let's start with BF, EDL, BNP and Ookip?

If somebody is caught preaching division in the name of Islam, ban them from universities. Shut down the mosques that facilitate this or at least remove their charitable status to show them we have zero tolerance for extremist behaviour.

Restrict immigration from primarily Islamic countries and refuse to take in large quantities of refugees without proper screening. Women and children should always take priority over young, fighting age males who seem to be the only types we are letting in.

Do away with Sharia courts in the UK. They may not be legally binding YET but it is the first step to legitimising this barbaric, undemocratic legal system.

These are a few things I would suggest to a political party who are serious about tackling extremism.

I can't imagine Labour or the Conservatives doing anything of the sort and this is why groups like Britain First will try to fix the problem themselves.
You appear to oppose some extremism but not all. I am opposed to all...including Kip and Britain First! That is the difference between you and me. I don't discriminate. I'm not selective re: extremism.
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Old 09-12-2016, 23:30
chameleon212
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aka - Ookip/BF?



You reveal your prejudice. You should be opposed to all faith schools not just muslim schools!



I agree. Let's start with BF, EDL, BNP and Ookip?



You appear to oppose some extremism but not all. I am opposed to all...including Kip and Britain First! That is the difference between you and me. I don't discriminate. I'm not selective re: extremism.
Comparing Catholic schools and Islamic faith schools is a disingenuous analogy. A lot of parents simply adopt Catholicism as a means to get their children a decent education. Religion is not necessarily a motivating factor.

I would rather reform education to make Catholic schools redundant. Get rid of public schools, they are divisive and elitist. Focus on improving state education so parents don't have to resort faking Catholicism or spending fortunes on tuition fees to get their children a decent education.

Islamic faith schools on the other hand are 100% about faith. The division they create is far more dangerous than Catholic schools and tackling them is a bigger priority.

And seeing as Britain First, the EDL, BNP and "Ookip" are all banned from speaking at most universities it's not them we need to start with.

But to compare UKIP (or even the BNP) with Islamic extremists who openly call for the murder of non-believers is ridiculous.

You are making false conflations and people can see this. It does not help your cause.
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Old 09-12-2016, 23:31
Ash_M1
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What many of your posts clearly demonstrate is that you have very strongly held political views and you feel anyone who disagrees with those views is wrong.

This explains why you believe the BBC is biased. You see something on the BBC that you don't agree with and you automatically conclude that the BBC must therefore be biased against your point of view.

The BBC tries to represent a broad range of views in its programmes - which is why it is regularly criticised by people on all sides of the debate. You are no different.
The reality is that it's you that is biased.
Well said mate...as ever.
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Old 09-12-2016, 23:36
Ash_M1
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Comparing Catholic schools and Islamic faith schools is a disingenuous analogy. A lot of parents simply adopt Catholicism as a means to get their children a decent education. Religion is not necessarily a motivating factor.

I would rather reform education to make Catholic schools redundant. Get rid of public schools, they are divisive and elitist. Focus on improving state education so parents don't have to resort faking Catholicism or spending fortunes on tuition fees to get their children a decent education.

Islamic faith schools on the other hand are 100% about faith. The division they create is far more dangerous than Catholic schools and tackling them is a bigger priority.

And seeing as Britain First, the EDL, BNP and "Ookip" are all banned from speaking at most universities it's not them we need to start with.

But to compare UKIP (or even the BNP) with Islamic extremists who openly call for the murder of non-believers is ridiculous.

You are making false conflations and people can see this. It does not help your cause.
You can't be selective re: faith schools. You can't say they are fine for some religions but not for others. That is discrimination. As it happens, I am opposed to ALL faith schools. I think they go against inclusion.

And that is right. It is irresponsible to allow them to spread their hate, division and bile.
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Old 09-12-2016, 23:57
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Never portrayed Britain First as such. I have acknowledged there are far right elements in the group and that they are not the best way to combat extremism. I say again, UKIP are the best solution against extremism as they would dispose of it in a civilised manner.

You can keep throwing out the same tired labels, they are losing their meaning and nobody will take you seriously anymore.

There are racists within Britain First, there I've said it again.

Attitudes like yours are the reason organisations with legitimate goals get overtaken by racists.

Unless you believe combating extremism is not a legitimate goal...
Well if the leaders are racists, that shows a racist organisation
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Old 10-12-2016, 00:30
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What a bizarre yet interesting thread. I've still not yet fathomed out where OP is coming from with all these different points he/she makes:
- BBC are so left wing that OP watches RT instead
- BBC are the mouthpiece of the govt. That's a right wing authoritarian govt.
- Question Time is so left wing. Even though one if its producers shares Britain First posts and 3 of the 5 panelists last night, as many nights, were very right wing (Farage, Mensch and Woolaston).
- But perhaps the big clue i initially missed. Apparently its left wing bias to state absolute facts like saying Britain First is a far right extremist party. Anyone who thinks Biritain First is centre ground is going to view everything else in this country as left wing
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