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Two brothers who tortured boys in South Yorkshire granted indefinite anonymity
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benjamini
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by tiacat:
“It centered on not being able to put adequate services into place prior to the children being accommodated. Reading between the lines its about not being able to accommodate the children earlier. However social services as an entity did not cause these children to attack the children.”

Indeed, we love to scape goat and social services are sitting ducks. I'm sure there were indeed failings and there will always be in these situation, social services do a bloody thankless job. But it's the parents who turn out these deeply damaged feral children with no boundaries, no life skill, often brought up in chaotic poverty stricken violent homes who are ultimately responsible. SS are merely a sticking plaster on a whole hideous sub culture few of us want to recognise or know about.
tiacat
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by benjamini:
“Indeed, we love to scape goat and social services are sitting ducks. I'm sure there were indeed failings and there will always be in these situation, social services do a bloody thankless job. But it's the parents who turn out these deeply damaged feral children with no boundaries, no life skill, often brought up in chaotic poverty stricken violent homes who are ultimately responsible. SS are merely a sticking plaster on a whole hideous sub culture few of us want to recognise or know about.”

Exactly and when you read the serious case review, its clear that they may have struggled at an earlier point to make the case for a care order. A risk assessment done by the youth offending team stated that one of the boys was a 'low - medium' risk of offending during their work, these cases where there are attempts to work the case are not fail safe. It might be that had they got an order and removed the children earlier, it might not have happened but it would have to have been much earlier and the difficulty with removal isnt really understood by the general public. They think you can go in and grab children and take them into care.
Once there, you cant lock children up either (without a different order which are very difficult to get) and one of the problems was these children kep running away from care.
Mark_Jones9
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by benjamini:
“Indeed, we love to scape goat and social services are sitting ducks. I'm sure there were indeed failings and there will always be in these situation, social services do a bloody thankless job. But it's the parents who turn out these deeply damaged feral children with no boundaries, no life skill, often brought up in chaotic poverty stricken violent homes who are ultimately responsible. SS are merely a sticking plaster on a whole hideous sub culture few of us want to recognise or know about.”

Social services were rightly blamed by the findings of several reports into this case. Reports that found a litany of failures by social services to do their job over a period of many years in this case and in general found Doncaster social services to be shambolic, incompetent, negligent, etc. The reports rightly blame social services for the completely predictable outcome of their utter failure to do their job.
benjamini
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by Mark_Jones9:
“Social services were rightly blamed by the findings of several reports into this case. Reports that found a litany of failures by social services to do their job over a period of many years in this case and in general found Doncaster social services to be shambolic, incompetent, negligent, etc. The reports rightly blame social services for the completely predictable outcome of their utter failure to do their job.”

So you have problem with the parents ?

I will concede that Doncaster council is and has been shit for a while.
Mark_Jones9
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by benjamini:
“So you have problem with the parents ?”

How does the behaviour of the parents mitigate the abysmal failure of social services in the case?

Social services child services in Doncaster were found to be so bad it triggered a recommendation for central government intervention. That led to the entire social services child services department being closed down and replaced and the local authority being relieved of its job of overseeing social services child services.
seacam
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by tiacat:
“How do you work that one out (bib)? How long do you think it takes a care system to try to overcome the previous developmental issues that these children had from their history?”

Because like you Tia I am dead set against kids being taken into care except where circumstances dictate the necessity.

My remark wasn't generalising in this case, I had in mind Doncaster SSs and the two involved.

There was no working out to be done, Doncaster admitted to failings and caught lying.

These two should have been taken into protective care much earlier.

There is no guarantee this or any other incident may not have happened, ( and it had and not for the 1st time prior to the attack with these two ), but SSs failed again and there were clear warning signs as to their disturbing behaviour.

To be more specific in answering your question, I am not convinced any care system can overcome serious development issues as with these two,---it is as another FM has written,-- can only attempt a damage limit exercise.

But these two could have been, should have been removed from their destructive, violent environment and had SSs done their job there is a good chance two other boys would have escaped an horrific attack.
tim59
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by Mark_Jones9:
“Social services were rightly blamed by the findings of several reports into this case. Reports that found a litany of failures by social services to do their job over a period of many years in this case and in general found Doncaster social services to be shambolic, incompetent, negligent, etc. The reports rightly blame social services for the completely predictable outcome of their utter failure to do their job.”

As with alot of social service all over the country, a shortage of staff and increasing work load, then mistakes accidents and failing are going to happen. How do you run a department a service safely when you are so understaffed like Birmingham https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...voBEFkiI-9iB8A. Birmingham City Council is to raise the price paid for agency social workers by almost £9 per hour in a bid to fill 161 vacancies in the crisis-hit child protection service.

Despite growing demand for child protection in the city, council bosses have struggled to fill frontline vacancies at current pay levels and say they have no option but to increase the hourly rate - in part to keep pace with pay offered by neighbouring local authorities.

A standard social worker with more than two years' experience will now cost £33.41 per hour, up from £24.54.
seacam
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by tim59:
“As with alot of social service all over the country, a shortage of staff and increasing work load, then mistakes accidents and failing are going to happen. How do you run a department a service safely when you are so understaffed like Birmingham https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...voBEFkiI-9iB8A”

Nope, these failing can not be excused as mistakes or lack of funding, in this case SS workers did not do their jobs.

Two boys ended up, rightly so with convictions, there should have been others.
benjamini
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by Mark_Jones9:
“How does the behaviour of the parents mitigate the abysmal failure of social services in the case?

Social services child services in Doncaster were found to be so bad it triggered a recommendation for central government intervention. That led to the entire social services child services department being closed down and replaced and the local authority being relieved of its job of overseeing social services child services.”

Im not arguing that social services were at fault, indeed they were. But this is not some weird isolated case, every single day there are horrific cases happen , every single day violent children are. Dealt with ...or not. Every single day social services make incredibly difficult decisions about how best to deal with mind bogglingly difficult situations.
Doncaster council happened , righty , to be getting a severe kicking at the time of this case. The publicity engendered warranted the court action. But it's not that rare or unusual for kids to behave in this way. It's not usual for it to be reported so widely.
seacam
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by benjamini:
“Im not arguing that social services were at fault, indeed they were. But this is not some weird isolated case, every single day there are horrific cases happen , every single day violent children are. Dealt with ...or not. Every single day social services make incredibly difficult decisions about how best to deal with mind bogglingly difficult situations.
Doncaster council happened , righty , to be getting a severe kicking at the time of this case. The publicity engendered warranted the court action. But it's not that rare or unusual for kids to behave in this way. It's not usual for it to be reported so widely.”

Yes it is, their age and the depravity and depth these two sank to.
sorcha_healy27
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by seacam:
“What do you mean fixed?

Like you, many of us remember the case and the horrific attack perpetrated on the victims.

But these two need to be protected from the public.

They have not been rehabilitated into normal citizens, they have and remain behaviour wise, problematic.

But they have a right to a 2nd chance.

But the two victims, the boys, they still suffer and all we can hope for is they receive as much support for however long they need it and their parents too.

It should be remembered these young attackers were under SSs care and were let down by them to, they tried to lie their way out of the growing public condemnation at the time.

As horrific, on the day of the attack both were supposed to me at a meeting with SSs to explain another violent attack they were involved in a few days earlier.”

Bib. That's debatable.
benjamini
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by tim59:
“As with alot of social service all over the country, a shortage of staff and increasing work load, then mistakes accidents and failing are going to happen. How do you run a department a service safely when you are so understaffed like Birmingham https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...voBEFkiI-9iB8A. Birmingham City Council is to raise the price paid for agency social workers by almost £9 per hour in a bid to fill 161 vacancies in the crisis-hit child protection service.

Despite growing demand for child protection in the city, council bosses have struggled to fill frontline vacancies at current pay levels and say they have no option but to increase the hourly rate - in part to keep pace with pay offered by neighbouring local authorities.

A standard social worker with more than two years' experience will now cost £33.41 per hour, up from £24.54.”



Completely agree about S services being underfunded and the problems frontline social workers face, however there was somthing fundamentally wrong with Doncaster council and this case and its prominence was as a result of that.
tim59
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by seacam:
“Nope, these failing can not be excused as mistakes or lack of funding, in this case SS workers did not do their jobs.

Two boys ended up, rightly so with convictions, there should have been others.”

Its not about making excuses, it about thing like the number of cases you are expected to be dealing with at one time, and child protection cases are the most demanding. What is a safe case load, if social workers case loads are to high then failing are going to happen.
seacam
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by sorcha_healy27:
“Bib. That's debatable.”

Sure, I understand that, my reason for writing that, my excuse if you like, is they were kids at the time but that reasoning is tenuous, I do not think these two are ready to be released.
benjamini
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by seacam:
“Yes it is, their age and the depravity and depth these two sank to.”

This is one story in the press that has engendered a lot of column inches for various reasons.
Every day there are horrific cases of equal depravity involving children and social services that are not reported. This was more about the shocking position of Doncaster Council really.
seacam
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by tim59:
“Its not about making excuses, it about thing like the number of cases you are expected to be dealing with at one time, and child protection cases are the most demanding. What is a safe case load, if social workers case loads are to high then failing are going to happen.”

I accept and agree with what you are saying but in this case as in some others the failing wasn't under funding, wasn't lack of sleep, wasn't case load, it was about some taking home a wage for a job they were not doing. And because they weren't doing it, others couldn't.
seacam
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by benjamini:
“This is one story in the press that has engendered a lot of column inches for various reasons.
Every day there are horrific cases of equal depravity involving children and social services that are not reported. This was more about the shocking position of Doncaster Council really.”

I understand what you are saying but similar/equal depravity, it would be reported.

These attacks by children on children, I am writing about the nature of this attack is rare, it does happen, still but rare.
Brandy211
09-12-2016
Originally Posted by academia:
“Perhaps a properly severe sentence would satisfy the public. Such a short sentence is ludicrous considering the horrific nature of the crime.”

What is a properly severe sentence though?

They were 10 & 11 years old.
At age 10, a 7 or 9 year sentence is along time.

Would it have been better if they had gone onto an adult prison?
Would they have been rehabilitated then?
dee123
10-12-2016
A terrible story all round. What happened in the two brothers lives to act like this? I hate to think.
Brandy211
10-12-2016
Originally Posted by intoxication:
“That is a very valid point. I also always worry in cases like this whether they are actually rehabilitated and cured. I don't think it can be fixed like peadophilia I think it's ingrained in your DNA from when you're born like if you're straight, bi or gay.”

I disagree that the boys behaviour was ingrained in their DNA.

They apparently grew up in a filthy house with doors covered in grease.They had a mother who had seven boys in the space of nine years, the family were known to social services for 14 years before the offence took place.
Both parents were drug dependents, the father regularly beat their mother. The boys smoked 20 cigarettes a day, drank cider and vodka & were allowed to smoke cannabis their father grew. They were also allowed to watch violent and porn dvds.
The court heard their mother confided "intimate" details with them.
They were free to roam the streets and create the same havoc they saw daily at home.
Their 14 year old brother had been sent to a youth offenders a few months before.
Neighbours said the street were fearful of the family.
The two boys were in foster care at the time of the offence. When confronted by the police, their mother said "The boys are nowt to do with me".

These boys had never known what a normal life is, probably until they were detained.
Not only did they have neglectful, drug addicted, violent, parents but also another 5 brothers who may also have been a bad influence on them.
One of the boys sobbed in court, as their defence read out about their father,s behaviour towards their mother.

They weren't born with this behaviour, it was taught.
benjamini
10-12-2016
Originally Posted by Brandy211:
“I disagree that the boys behaviour was ingrained in their DNA.

They apparently grew up in a filthy house with doors covered in grease.They had a mother who had seven boys in the space of nine years, the family were known to social services for 14 years before the offence took place.
Both parents were drug dependents, the father regularly beat their mother. The boys smoked 20 cigarettes a day, drank cider and vodka & were allowed to smoke cannabis their father grew. They were also allowed to watch violent and porn dvds.
Their 14 year old brother had been sent to a youth offenders a few months before.
Neighbours said the street were fearful of the family.
The two boys were in foster care at the time of the offence. When confronted by the police, their mother said "The boys are nowt to do with me".

These boys had never known what a normal life is, probably until they were detained.
Not only did they have neglectful, drug addicted, violent, parents but also another 5 brothers who may also have been a bad influence on them.
One of the boys sobbed in court, as their defence read out about their father,s behaviour towards their mother.

They weren't born with this behaviour, it was taught.”

Well said, but we don't care really as a society , it up to social services ...or the government or someone else, just not me!
Brandy211
10-12-2016
Originally Posted by benjamini:
“Well said, but we don't care really as a society , it up to social services ...or the government or someone else, just not me!”

I agree, but what is the solution?

The public just call for more punishment on the boys who have been punished since the day they were born...

I do think that they should be placed separately, in a borough as far away from their family as possible though. That & that they be around those who are a positive influence, might be their only chance of a second chance.

Who knows what their other brothers have been up too since they were convicted?
The last I read, was that their mother had gone to live in a caravan somewhere
. She and their father, should be made to take some responsibility for what they created, due to their lifestyle and neglect.
Maybe society should vent their anger at them instead? Or at the system that only helped their mother keep her children and closed their eyes to what was happening within the family, maybe even before these two boys were born? Considering the family were known to social services for 14 years BEFORE the offence...
benjamini
10-12-2016
Originally Posted by Brandy211:
“I agree, but what is the solution?

The public just call for more punishment on the boys who have been punished since the day they were born...

I do think that they should be placed separately, in a borough as far away from their family as possible though. That & that they be around those who are a positive influence, might be their only chance of a second chance.

Who knows what their other brothers have been up too since they were convicted?
The last I read, was that their mother had gone to live in a caravan somewhere
. She and their father, should be made to take some responsibility for what they created, due to their lifestyle and neglect.
Maybe society should vent their anger at them instead? Or at the system that only helped their mother keep her children and closed their eyes to what was happening within the family, maybe even before these two boys were born? Considering the family were known to social services for 14 years BEFORE the offence...”

In reality why would anyone of us care or give one damn about them ? These people will not contribute to society , they are the social drain, they leech of the working decent hard workers, they are all that's wrong with society. We have governments of all colours who are reconciled to paying them off. It's the price you pay for the workshy , the shirkers and the needy. Thank god they have no voice.
Once upon a time the nobodies ,,the unwashed , the ill educated had a voice because the working class were needed to oil the wheels of industry and their vote was needed
. The peasants are now. Surplus to requirement so we laugh at them on the Jeremy Kyle show.
CosmopeletonDS
10-12-2016
Their identities will eventually leak and they will be dealt with. Karma. But of course, if the public got the identities of the perpetrators wrong then it would be disastrous. But if they got it right... x.
benjamini
10-12-2016
Originally Posted by CosmopeletonDS:
“Their identities will eventually leak and they will be dealt with. Karma. But of course, if the public got the identities of the perpetrators wrong thwen it would be disastrous. But if they got it right... x.”

Why is it Karma that 11 year olds will face retribution? Today we heard on the news that hundreds of adult men raped little boys , sexually abused little boys and no mention of retribution for them. Why is that ?
I'm not making excuses here, but as always the torch brigade want to flay children while I'm utterly gobsmacked that there is no bloody mention about adult men raping wee boys. No outrage, no anger , no shame. Why is that ?
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