Southern Rail is heavily funded by the Government and southern continue with the industrial action. Transport Minister Chris Graying insists there will be no job cut which is potentially wrong. Southern have 100 British share holders and owned by Govia which is a French company. This dispute will erupt next week with both the drivers and conductors on strike and no trains running. Buses should replace trains, but if the government won't subsides them during the strikes- it has to come out of southerns coffers there won't be any ordered. This dispute is over no conductors on trains. On health and safety grounds l would expect they can't have only driver operated trains.
A driver has cameras on these new trains but can't always see right back of the carriages. So what's next for southern? The high court don't want to know.

http://www.southernrailway.com/mobil...e-alterations/

The dispute is between Southern Rail and its employees and their unions. Nothing to do with the government.

My sympathies are with the people who use the service and pay a fortune for tickets and are facing the sack because of the unreliability of it. Some employers wont even consider employing people who travel on Southern Rail.

Grayling doesn't want to get rid of Southern as it will make it much more likely that a LABOUR mayor will end up controlling the trains in London

It has everything to do with the government. The DFT are dictating the terms, insisting on DOO and supporting the no compromise position. Both the Government and Govia are using passengers to break the union's. I don't usually have a lot of time for the union's but in common with many Southern passengers am in no doubt who is pulling the strings here
Someone will get killed, there have already been injuries and still Southern refuse talks

The ball is and has always been in Southern's court.

No idea what that jcomment means Govia have a management contract to run Southern. The DFT requires that they move to DOO but is happy not to impose penalties for the shambolic service we endure each day

Fortunately I live on the other side of London so don't have to use Southern very often but when I have it has been a very frustrating experience, especially between London and Gatwick.

However, the main problem with the line is lack of capacity due to decades of under-investment rather than day to day management. When Thameslink is finally finished (remember when it was called Thameslink 2000?) and the rebuilding of London Bridge station is complete then things should improve but more is needed.

Doyou really understand the issue? It is simply about who operates the door closing procedure. The driver or the guard. The current trains have a driver to drive and a guard to close the doors. The new trains have additional functionality so the driver can close the doors while the guard attends to the needs of the passengers. No one is losing their job, there will still be two employees on the train albeit the guard is renamed. there is no loss in wages. The same system is run on other networks and also in other parts of Southern Rail with no problem. It is not a Health and Safety issue as it is already in operation and has been passed as safe. It is purely the RMT flexing their muscles. They should be ashamed of themselves hoding the passengers and Southern to ransom for no reason.

The DLR has run successfully for many years without drivers at all.

It isn't just infrastructure. They employ 20% less drivers than are needed which is why the work to rule has hit so hard so quickly. There are no penalties for GTR when they under perform, our delay replays are paid by the taxpayer and staff relations are beyond repair

Utter tripe. As if Southen cares a fig about the needs of the passengers. Trains are so overcrowded there would be no opportunity to move around carriages and I am guessing revenue protection would be the sole task.
Most stations are unmanned, many have very large gaps and often very curved tracks. I use these routes every day and have seen the service deteriorate every year since GTR were gifted this , Southern and GTR are wholly responsible and it is their shame

indeed its a political strike designed for some wider inter union or anti-government issue , and to back pressure for nationalisation. Strikes around Christmas have always been popular with the RMT - for the same reasons trains were always cancelled more often for a lack of a driver when the Christmas Party season opened.

Its difficult to see what else it could be - given no jobs or safety issues are involved.

The problem is an obvious one if you travel on trains. The guard always has to move from where he is, doing whatever he is with passengers, from and to a control panel elsewhere, to operate the doors. If he's about to sell a ticket , he has to stop and go back to the nearest monitor and door control panel. If its a stopping service , opening the doors just takes up more of his time. Without opening the doors, the guard also has no excuse to position himself in a quiet carriage, and just stay there opening doors all trip. The driver meanwhile is sitting there with nothing to do as the train is stopped at the station. The CCTV View is the same.

Govia is not French. It's a consortium of GoAhead and Keolis (which is French). It operates many other train franchises, but in the case of Southern, Thameslink and Great Northern (plus the Gatwick Express, which isn't really a TOC just a brand) it's a management contract.

While GTR did have to bid, it doesn't get fare revenue. It also HAS to impose DOO, which is something the Government was doing under BR and now presumably wants to have operating on ALL routes.

If people want a return to BR, well the TSGN 'franchise' is perhaps a good taster.

As for the guard issue, no jobs are going but GTR cannot guarantee the jobs beyond the contract, which ends in 2021 I believe. That is when guards fear redundancies, and with no guarantees there is this stalemate.

The unions are being a bit silly though as I think they've agreed to a lot of things (a lump sum for guards) and can't really believe the safety argument when a Class 387 train on Southern (Gatwick Express) is DOO, a Class 387 on Thameslink is DOO, the trains on Great Northern are all DOO and Southern also uses the same rolling stock from time to time, but with a guard.

The driver can use the onboard cameras, or other equipment when working for one route but not another?

If safety was a concern, drivers would be refusing to take out trains on TL, GN and GatEx (well, for a while on GatEx they did, and that was because of a really pathetic reason - the length of the train being longer than the 10 car trains they replaced and the rule book referring to 10 cars!).

Nobody comes out smelling of roses in this fiasco, but ultimately I doubt DOO would have been forced through if it wasn't for the Government. Govia ran the franchise before, and kept guards.

Another poster above has also given a good insight into the goings on. There's certainly loads more, such as the contracts for drivers and how that various throughout the contract - but there's little desire to change things as it generally suits drivers who can earn good overtime by there being a shortage of drivers.

Not so good for the passenger though, but if nobody wants to change it, how does the passenger do anything? The DfT isn't bothered, and turns a blind eye because it knows that it is responsible for a lot of the problems and Govia will likely be shielded from action to a degree - although I wonder when the breaking point will come. It has been going on for months now.

You clearly have no idea of what is proposed. see networkbabe's post . Your trains are overcrowded because Southern are not able to run a full service because of the union.

As I said DLR have no drivers but passenger assistants. their stations are also unmanned. There have been no major issues in several years of operation.

It IS the unions bullying.

Just one point. No operator can guarantee jobs beyond their contract as they don't know if they will retain said contract until it is up for renewal and they win. You can't tie a new operator to the existing terms.

I know. That's one of the key issues and what the union is so upset about.

GTR offered a lump sum, which I thought they accepted.

I can't quite keep up as the whole thing is a mess. I'm NOT against unions, but the RMT in particular is a joke a lot of the time.

When you are running a train service that is so reliant on drivers doing overtime, i would say you are running a service with not enough drivers. About half of its trains are already being cancelled because of a drivers' overtime ban as well as separate action by the RMT union.

Southend has a shortage of instructors and elsewhere there's a backlog on training drivers for the new Class 700 trains - which is going to cause problems if not resolved soon.

GTR are by no means blame free here, but the problems imposing DOO must play a huge part as it has upset staff, lowered morale and probably put off new people wanting to come work for it.

The Southern owners are so incompetent that even Conservative MPs have been calling for its franchise removal.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/trans...-a3257331.html

If Grayling had any sense or balls he would do this immediately.

The blame lies totally with the management.

Then who does the DfT get to do its dirty work? Would anyone want the contract for a 1.5% return, which could be even less by 2021?

You do realise that the Unions want the overtime. If you employed enough drivers that no overtime was required the Unions would be up in arms saying that they are reducing their members income and that they rely on it to make ends meet. They also use it as a bargaining power by then stopping overtime to cause problems as they are now doing. If you employed enough they would not be able to do it. It causes enough disruption to inconvenience passengers without a full strike which would lose them all pay.

Whilst I understand why unions exist and can be very helpful I find the rail unions to be nothing more than extortionists who strike at the drop of a hat and coordinate various actions to casue the most disruption. So guards will strike on some days and drivers on others an London Underground on others. It's also not helped by having multiple Unions (RMT, ASLEF & TSSA) which enables them to do it.

Drivers do have considerable power given the specialised nature of their work, the time to train, needing to have gain knowledge, sign individual trains etc.

The unions usually get their way, but pay rises and the like often reward drivers at the expense of other workers.

If modern technology ever made it so drivers could train in a matter of months and drive anything, they'd lose most of their power overnight. Of course, can you imagine the fun ahead if anyone wanted to introduce anything to reduce the skill level of a driver?

More and more job descriptions I see have something like "must hold a full UK driving licence" with a exemption for disabled applicants - it's not just Southern Rail, its across the UK where employers want people who can drive even for stationary jobs. Worse still, automation is where those stationary jobs will have a big impact more than jobs where people need to drive to different sites with a greater skill set. And also ironically, automation could sink the job prospects of Southern Rail drivers.

GTR have steadily decreased the quality, frequency and reliability of service since they took over. As someone who has used Southern for over 20 years I know what it was like pre their take over. Under Connex there were more frequent trains and although they were shorter the extra journeys meant this did not matter.
Well before the strikes kicked off this year cancellations, short formed trains and missing out station stops became the norm.
I think it easy to use the excuse that the drivers want the overtime, frankly I don't care if they do. I want enough drivers employed so that rest day working is only needed to cover emergencies and is not the norm. It is unsafe that there is now such a reliance that the railway falls apart when it is withdrawn.
Finally I manage a large team at work, I am held responsible for not only ensuring they do their job but also that they actually want to. Employee relations matter to most organisations, there is no excuse for Southern refusing to continue ACAS discussions despite being urged to by local MPs

Drivers want overtime, so they'll fight to stop losing it. TOCs save money having fewer drivers. So, usually, everyone is happy. Who wants to change things?

The passengers of course, but we don't have the power to change anything bar refusing to travel.

And still the government allow fare increases. I have spent 5 hours travelling on at least one occasion each month during the last year. Incidentally those were all on non strike days
I am taking early retirement next year as a direct result of the worsening service I feel for those who cannot choose not to travel
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