The very fact that plenty of people seem to believe that we can turn our backs on the EU and still get a deal that comes even close to that of being a full member is laughable,

The number one priority of the other 26 nations is the preservation of the union, I mean the name of the organisation should be the only clue needed to establish this as fact, "the European Union" their priority will most certainly NOT be to 'go easy' on those 'special people' from those islands to their west, otherwise many of the other member countries will think "Hello, I'll have some of that 'cake and eat it' stuff too"

Snot exactly brain science is it?

Then we have the "we can get a Norway type deal" stuff, really? perhaps those who think the UK will be telling 26 other countries what deal we will let them give us would be good enough to tell us when Norway ever signed a treaty to be full members and then 40 years later turned around and said "you know what? I don't want to be a full member anymore but, ....we will have this, some of that,..... a smidgen of that, but you can shove that up your Alps"

Oh and Germany sells all of it's cars here you know? Oh yeah cause them Germans they aren't like "us Brits" you know?
Nah, see, if it was the other way around and Germany bought our cars but had just walked away from the club we had helped build and spent nigh on 50 years investing time money and effort into,
saying "thanks but no thanks we don't need you and your laws ordering us around anymore, we want our country back cause we want to be great again and we don't want any of you living here either"
Then I'm sure WE would just say "oh dear fair enough just so long as you keep buying our cars we will bend over and let you have your own way, we will give in to you on everything but please PLEASE don't stop buying our cars because without the sales to one country we will all starve to death"

I mean come ON imagine the headlines in the right wing press if it was France or Germany leaving and behaving in the same way that May and her brexiteers are!!

It do make I laugh.

You should have been on Cameron's 'Remain' campaign team.

How can anyone argue with that ^^?

Of course he will. He would be a fool not to.

He's not going to get triple cake, and he wants cake and to be able to eat it.

He will then have to negotiate , and accept less cake.

He's not going to go in and ask for crumbs, only to be offered smaller crumbs. Nor is he not going to have to ask for immigration control - everyone but the Corbynite hard left, the Liberals, the SNP, and the Greens, knows thats now essential.

It strikes me that if the UK wants to "control immigration" and "regain sovereignty" by quitting the EU, it's going to come at an economic cost and perhaps even mean having to take a big financial hit, just as it would for any other EU state attempting to do the same. If people are aware of this and think it's worth the price, that's absolutely fine. Davis is fooling nobody though in claiming that the UK can leave the EU and still thrive as if nothing has even happened.

And, politically, May needs to prove she has asked for everything the reluctant Brexiters, and resigned Remainers want, - before real world negotiating reduces that to something less.

And when she gets something less, she will be able to blame the Europeans, accurately, for not looking after their own best economic interests.

Anti What's best for Britain and yet more right wing media paranoia - at least you're consistent

Sounds like you want Europe to get more out of these negotiations than us.

How can you blame Europe for us voting to leave EU. Their best economic interests are not giving us a deal outside of EU better than we had in the EU. I'm amazed anything thinks it is.

So..

The ECB's bought around €1.5tn in bonds.
UK owns 13.5% of the ECB.

Do Junker and Draghi have enough to buy us out? If so, that buys us a lot of cake.. If not, well, what compromises in say, financial services might the EU allow in order to satisfy their debt?

Simple really. Cameron went to the EU to try and negotiate a deal to head off the referendum vote. The EU offered a lousy deal and that they wouldn't reform, or negotiate anything better.

And the rest is history..

Consistent in as much as I don't believe that us Brits are better than everyone else you mean? and that I believe SOME of us seem to think we should get special treatment? oh yeah, I have felt that way for years, I am not "anti what's best best for Britain" at all, I just don't expect the rest of the world to treat us as though we are special.

OH that's a hard one, should the one nation that has decided to leave, get more "out of" Europe than the TWENTY SIX nations who haven't decided to leave?

At least you are consistent,

Shock, horror!

Person enters a negotiation wanting the best possible outcome.

The desperation on this forum to find fault is truly laughable. What a pathetic non story and what a risible effort from another whinging Remainer.

Europe will get more, they hold all the negotiating cards - as was pointed out in the referendum campaign.

Our main card is their economic self interest, but they may well put their EU political interests above that, and find ways amongst themselves to cut their economic losses. They also stand to gain more from a brain, jobs and investment drain from here, the tougher they make the consequences. There's also a host of political issues between them,, and within EU states, that will produce national stances that are not in our , or Europe's, best interests - but will be backed by a veto.

Our second position is as Europe's back up security guarantor - an issue which the east europeans are keen on, But that card's looking tatty, as our armed forces are regarded globally as abit of a joke - too small, too poorly equipped, and too focused on small wars to deter any major threat to Europe. And we can't offer them more of what we don't have. Geography also means we need them , more than they need us - you can't defend the country if you only know whats coming when its nearly here.

Article in Brexit supporting Telegraph the other day basically saying the likes of Davis are on a wing and a prayer that EU will behave in a way that they the Brexiteers said the EU were incapable of behaving.

Hmm....

As for security the message from MI6 guy who came put of the shadows. Don't you dare involve us in any Brexit negotiations. National security is above all else. We have our links across the world and they are there to stay. Security is not a bargaining tool.

But that's why we voted 'Leave'. As networkbabe pointed out, the problem is conflicting political and economic desires. Politically, the EUrocrats want to punish us. Practically, the people who pay them and fund their campaigns would probably quite like to continue trading with us.

My bet is that EU industry lobbyists have worn the knocker out on Merkel's door.

No one wants to "punish" us rather they have pointed out the obvious, namely, that if you tear up your club membership card and refuse to pay the club fees, you are not going to get the benefits of club membership including the use of its facilities.

Anyone believing otherwise is basically arguing that we, as non club members, should actually have a better deal than we do as club members, since they assume we'll basically be able to continue to enjoy all club benefits and facilities due to the others deciding to give us cost-free club membership. The other member states, however, aren't going to be stupid enough to agree that a non-club member gets a better deal than a club member.

They may well have but Merkel is a "from first principle" person and definitely isn't stupid enough to give us a deal that is the same or better, than we currently have, as a non-EU member than we get as an EU member.

Why, after all, should a non-member get the same or better deal than a member?

Yeah but .... yeah but..... it's all about the BMW's.

It seems strange to me how people who appear to have voted for remain describe the situation we have now but with controls on immigration as a 'better deal'.

This is the point I have been trying to make since long before the referendum, lots of people have this idea that "they need us more than we need them" so they will allow us to still get all (or very close to all) of the benefits of membership while no longer being a member or paying the full membership dues,
This is what I meant by this "we are British and therefore we are entitled to be treated differently to everyone else" attitude that many seem to have, and that some seem to think is "anti-British" to even dare to mention it.

I am certain that the 26 other nations will not only not give us a 'better' deal than they themselves have, but that they will make damned sure it's not even close to the advantages of membership,
it would be an act of self harm for them to do otherwise, obviously they will need to show that there are NO advantages to be had from leaving, anything else would risk the complete unravelling of the EU, so the fact that Germany sells us lots of cars is very unlikely to see them offering us anything close to a 'good deal' they will rate the unity of the union much higher than the sale of some cars.

Indeed. Many Brexiters seemed to be convinced that the sovereignty of the other 27 member states rests, not with their respective Parliaments or Peoples, but instead, entirely with the German car industry.

That's why Brexit Britain will negotiate entirely with Mercedes and BMW, rather than the Governments of France, Italy or even Germany!

You can guarantee that if anybody can foul up the negotiations, Davis can, and will.

It actually stems from the propaganda spouted by the Mail and Express etc claiming that Merkel is a dictator who is in charge of the EU. People are so used to reading this garbage that they think it's actually correct and that the deal that the UK gets from the EU after Brexit will be decided by Merkel alone.