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Leaked memo confirms David Davis will go into talks with 'have our cake and eat it'


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Old 10-12-2016, 15:59
SULLA
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OH that's a hard one, should the one nation that has decided to leave, get more "out of" Europe than the TWENTY SIX nations who haven't decided to leave?

At least you are consistent,
How would our willingness to trade with the EU be getting more out of it than them ????
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Old 10-12-2016, 16:01
Aurora13
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You can guarantee that if anybody can foul up the negotiations, Davis can, and will.
He really isn't very bright.
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Old 10-12-2016, 16:23
Kiteview
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How would our willingness to trade with the EU be getting more out of it than them ????
Were it a case that we were prepared to adopt an "arms length" relationship and confine ourselves to trading with the EU as though we were, let's say, Chile, then no one could have grounds for complaint about our request.

The reports though would seem to indicate that the government, or at least Mr Davis, is operating on the basis that we can have our cake and eat it. And as posters here have pointed out the other member states aren't going to give us all the benefits of club membership (which cover more than just trade btw) if we are not members of the club and/or paying our club membership fees (and I include EEA membership in that since it too embraces the four freedoms of which FoM is one).
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Old 10-12-2016, 16:25
OLD HIPPY GUY
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How would our willingness to trade with the EU be getting more out of it than them ????
Perhaps you could ask the person who posted the comment I was replying to?

Sounds like you want Europe to get more out of these negotiations than us.
I repeat why should one country, the country leaving the union, get more out of the EU than the countries who are not leaving?
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Old 10-12-2016, 16:54
hoppyuppy
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Perhaps you could ask the person who posted the comment I was replying to?


I repeat why should one country, the country leaving the union, get more out of the EU than the countries who are not leaving?
I imagine you would rather sand-paper the nose off your face, than see May get anything like a reasonable deal.

Are you having ostrich for Christmas dinner this year?
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:15
SULLA
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Perhaps you could ask the person who posted the comment I was replying to?
I was asking you. Do you have an answer ?
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:30
OLD HIPPY GUY
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I imagine you would rather sand-paper the nose off your face, than see May get anything like a reasonable deal.

Are you having ostrich for Christmas dinner this year?
So you DO think we should get special treatment?

I have not said any such thing about not wanting May to get a reasonable deal,

my entire point is that so many people clearly believe that the EU MUST give us a great deal,
I am simply pointing out that they will almost certainly avoid at all costs giving us any sort of deal which might look as though we are having our cake and eating it (thread title relevance) because if they do then it will encourage even more member states to leave and demand the same 'great deal', it's not rocket surgery.

But as ever, it appears that simply pointing out human nature and the fact that many here quite obviously DO buy into the propaganda that 'us Brits' should be treated better than any other country for no other reason than the fact we are British.

My position is one of being 'fair minded and reasonable' and not one of thinking that we are somehow more important than others, which, as ever, leads to me being told that I am "anti British" which, ironically enough, only proves my point.
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:31
allaorta
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Perhaps you could ask the person who posted the comment I was replying to?


I repeat why should one country, the country leaving the union, get more out of the EU than the countries who are not leaving?
Its importance to EU exports and as a recipient of part of its population.
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:33
hoppyuppy
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So you DO think we should get special treatment?

I have not said any such thing about not wanting May to get a reasonable deal,

my entire point is that so many people clearly believe that the EU MUST give us a great deal,
I am simply pointing out that they will almost certainly avoid at all costs giving us any sort of deal which might look as though we are having our cake and eating it (thread title relevance) because if they do then it will encourage even more member states to leave and demand the same 'great deal', it's not rocket surgery.

But as ever, it appears that simply pointing out human nature and the fact that many here quite obviously DO buy into the propaganda that 'us Brits' should be treated better than any other country for no other reason than the fact we are British.

My position is one of being 'fair minded and reasonable' and not one of thinking that we are somehow more important than others, which, as ever, leads to me being told that I am "anti British" which, ironically enough, only proves my point.
Only read that line and that is wrong, I will get back to you shortly.

I said reasonable and meant reasonable. How hard is that?

YOU are 'special'.
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:36
Mr Oleo Strut
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He really isn't very bright.
Pugnacious and confrontational. Not a man to be handling tricky negotiations.
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:40
OLD HIPPY GUY
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I was asking you. Do you have an answer ?
My answer, in the context of the post I was answering, was perfectly clear,

He implied that someone thought that Europe would get more out of these negotiations than us, and that it was in some way wrong to think that.
Sounds like you want Europe to get more out of these negotiations than us.
I simply pointed out that we are one nation, they are many nations, and that to expect them to give us a better deal than the one we had, or one even close to it, or better than or close to the ones that the other members have is totally unrealistic,

yet STILL some people seem to think it's perfectly right to expect such things..... because they believe we are special.
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:42
OLD HIPPY GUY
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Only read that line and that is wrong, I will get back to you shortly.

I said reasonable and meant reasonable. How hard is that?

YOU are 'special'.
What is the point in asking a question and then admitting that you didn't read the full answer but having a 'dig' anyway?

don't want an answer, don't ask a question,
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:43
Thiswillbefun
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Maybe if less of our supposed great politicians such as Farron talked down our chances we may do better?
lol.

Maybe if people vote for the worst possible deal, they shouldn't be surprised when they get what they voted for, then start blaming others.
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:43
OLD HIPPY GUY
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Its importance to EU exports and as a recipient of part of its population.
Ask any member state and they would almost all say exactly that about themselves.
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:47
koantemplation
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yet STILL some people seem to think it's perfectly right to expect such things..... because they believe we are special.
We (the UK) are special. Too many people seem to talk us down nowadays.

We are an Island unlike European Countries. We helped fight to save most of the European countries from Germany not just once but twice.

For the Europeans to sulk and punish us for daring to leave their corrupt EU, and EU that allowed thousands of illegal immigrants into their area knowing that we would also have to let them in.

They don't have to give us good terms of trade, but it hurts them as much as us for them to not to.

And in the end that is all it is about for them. Trade, not people's quality of life.
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:47
hoppyuppy
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What is the point in asking a question and then admitting that you didn't read the full answer but having a 'dig' anyway?

don't want an answer, don't ask a question,
It was an update on how far I had got.

You would rather see more misery in the country than the tories escaping from this bollocks with any dignity intact. That is my opinion.
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:50
Doctor_Wibble
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So is there a sniff of who leaked the memo, was it the government or the corporation or one of the peons thereof? The differing perspective will rather colour the flavour of the notes.
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Old 10-12-2016, 18:13
OLD HIPPY GUY
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It was an update on how far I had got.

You would rather see more misery in the country than the tories escaping from this bollocks with any dignity intact. That is my opinion.
It's not really simply an opinion when you are telling someone what you think they think, some would say it's rude or even offensive, I would say something else but I don't think it would be wise.
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Old 10-12-2016, 18:17
hoppyuppy
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It's not really simply an opinion when you are telling someone what you think they think, some would say it's rude or even offensive, I would say something else but I don't think it would be wise.
You can say anything, I wouldn't be offended. I see you didn't deny I was reflecting your view.
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Old 10-12-2016, 18:21
DinkyDoobie
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Well the one thing we can take away from all of this Brexit malarkey is that pretty much everyone thinks being in the EU as it is - is a bad deal or at least not the best deal and if the only reason to stick with the deal we have is the likelihood of getting a worse deal then i think you should question who you're in business with.
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Old 10-12-2016, 18:28
Rooks
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I simply pointed out that we are one nation, they are many nations, and that to expect them to give us a better deal than the one we had, or one even close to it, or better than or close to the ones that the other members have is totally unrealistic,
It depends on what you consider to be a better deal. Personally, if we have a decent trading agreement with the EU without being involved in their political project then I'd consider that a better deal than we currently have. I don't expect a tariff-free trading agreement with the EU so in that sense it would be a worse arrangement but we'd have significant more trading freedom which would, in my opinion, result in a better overall deal than we have now.
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Old 10-12-2016, 18:28
Eurostar
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Well the one thing we can take away from all of this Brexit malarkey is that pretty much everyone thinks being in the EU as it is - is a bad deal or at least not the best deal and if the only reason to stick with the deal we have is the likelihood of getting a worse deal then i think you should question who you're in business with.
The UK has the exact same deal that the other member states have ie. full access to the 28 nation Single Market without any restrictions whatsoever. If Britain has a 'bad deal', then everyone has a bad deal.
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Old 10-12-2016, 18:35
Eurostar
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It depends on what you consider to be a better deal. Personally, if we have a decent trading agreement with the EU without being involved in their political project then I'd consider that a better deal than we currently have. I don't expect a tariff-free trading agreement with the EU so in that sense it would be a worse arrangement but we'd have significant more trading freedom which would, in my opinion, result in a better overall deal than we have now.
Having a trading only relationship and nothing else with EU states would be incompatible with EU membership as it exists in 2016 for any European country and in fact would be incompatible with membership of the Single Market. If a European country wants to be outside the EU and outside the Single Market, that's absolutely fine but it means having to make do with a very basic trade deal and one that would be inferior to what would be on offer with membership of the Single Market.
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Old 10-12-2016, 18:41
SULLA
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My answer, in the context of the post I was answering, was perfectly clear,

He implied that someone thought that Europe would get more out of these negotiations than us, and that it was in some way wrong to think that.


I simply pointed out that we are one nation, they are many nations, and that to expect them to give us a better deal than the one we had, or one even close to it, or better than or close to the ones that the other members have is totally unrealistic,

yet STILL some people seem to think it's perfectly right to expect such things..... because they believe we are special.
We are not asking for a better deal. We just want to trade freely with them. Is restricted movement a better deal ? If it was, the whole of the EU would want it.
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Old 10-12-2016, 18:43
Rooks
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Having a trading only relationship and nothing else with EU states would be incompatible with EU membership as it exists in 2016 for any European country and in fact would be incompatible with membership of the Single Market. If a European country wants to be outside the EU and outside the Single Market, that's absolutely fine but it means having to make do with a very basic trade deal and one that would be inferior to what would be on offer with membership of the Single Market.
Did I mention Single Market membership? I don't expect the UK to be in the Single Market after Brexit, nor would I want it for the exact reasons you mention (and other reasons). I'd expect a trading agreement with the EU and nothing more, probably in the form of a Free Trade agreement as that benefits us and them.
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