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Old 09-12-2016, 23:11
peteques
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Hi all,
What is the best way to keep a TV prog these days pls? Back in the day you could use VCR! 3 / 4 years ago I bought a Panasonic DVD recorder which allowed you to record onto hard drive then archive onto DVD if you wished. Although I still have this - its unreliable and cannot receive HD channels.

I've never had a discrete PVR - is this the way to go - can you save onto USB and keep a prog?

My TV lets you plug a USB stick in to record to. I've never done this, but I've been told more often than not, it will only play back on the TV that it was recorded from.

So basically, my question is - can I record a prog from a HD channel that I could keep and play back on multiple Tvs / devices?
Thx Pete
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Old 10-12-2016, 02:14
emptybox
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If you bought a TV tuner for your PC then there are several programs that will allow you to record HD progs, and you can then view the files on a whole range of devices (some conversion may be necessary).

But as you say, if you use a set top box PVR then it's quite difficult to take HD material off that to play elsewhere, as it's often encrypted to protect copyright..
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Old 10-12-2016, 08:58
Nigel Goodwin
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So basically, my question is - can I record a prog from a HD channel that I could keep and play back on multiple Tvs / devices?
It's called 'piracy' - stealing programming is frowned upon, hence it's been made more difficult.
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Old 10-12-2016, 09:28
Tassium
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In the UK, people are allowed to record TV programmes for their own use.

Piracy is re-selling.
-----------
On the subject, it's not possible to do it reliably. PVRs are so flaky.

It does not deter the pirates however, only the honest public who wish to save a programme to watch later.
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Old 10-12-2016, 11:11
tealady
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Pvrs are flakey?

Well, initially perhaps, but not now.
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Old 10-12-2016, 11:49
skinj
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In the UK, people are allowed to record TV programmes for their own use.

Piracy is re-selling.
-----------
On the subject, it's not possible to do it reliably. PVRs are so flaky.

It does not deter the pirates however, only the honest public who wish to save a programme to watch later.
They are allowed to record to watch later, not to record and keep afaik.
Section 8, penultimate clause.
https://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/c..._copyright_law
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Old 10-12-2016, 12:40
Nigel Goodwin
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In the UK, people are allowed to record TV programmes for their own use.

Piracy is re-selling.
No to both of those claims!.
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Old 10-12-2016, 13:12
barbeler
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My Humax HDR 2000T allows me to transfer recording to my PC's hard drive via FTP (Filezilla in my case). I can also transfer video in .avi format from my PC to the Humax – mp3 music files as well.
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Old 10-12-2016, 13:14
Maccadanny
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No to both of those claims!.
What are pvr's for then?
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Old 10-12-2016, 13:44
skinj
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What are pvr's for then?
Watching a program at a more convenient time generally called "time-shifting", not keeping for ever.
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Old 10-12-2016, 14:37
mindset
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Hi all,
What is the best way to keep a TV prog these days pls? Back in the day you could use VCR! 3 / 4 years ago I bought a Panasonic DVD recorder which allowed you to record onto hard drive then archive onto DVD if you wished. Although I still have this - its unreliable and cannot receive HD channels.

I've never had a discrete PVR - is this the way to go - can you save onto USB and keep a prog?

My TV lets you plug a USB stick in to record to. I've never done this, but I've been told more often than not, it will only play back on the TV that it was recorded from.

So basically, my question is - can I record a prog from a HD channel that I could keep and play back on multiple Tvs / devices?
Thx Pete
Go for the Panasonic DMR-BWT850. It ain't cheap, but you can transfer your TV shows to blu ray. Go on, be a 'pirate' LOL
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Old 10-12-2016, 15:07
emptybox
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Watching a program at a more convenient time generally called "time-shifting", not keeping for ever.
The whole point of recording to the hard drive in a PVR is that you can keep the programme for as long as you like (or as long as the disk survives).

Perhaps you are getting a PVR mixed up with a Youview (or Freesat Freetime) box?

And to Nigel.
I presume you refuse to own a PVR on principle then, if you regard it a "piracy"?
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Old 10-12-2016, 15:32
skinj
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The whole point of recording to the hard drive in a PVR is that you can keep the programme for as long as you like (or as long as the disk survives).

Perhaps you are getting a PVR mixed up with a Youview (or Freesat Freetime) box?

And to Nigel.
I presume you refuse to own a PVR on principle then, if you regard it a "piracy"?
I work in the industry selling these things & have done for 20ys.
I know what a PVR is.
The whole point of a PVR is that you can record something when you're not around and watch it later on. if you want, most PVRs let your store the recording for as long as you want but that is not the whole point of them. Most don't let you copy the recording off of the unit either. The big benefit of PVRs for the consumer is the capability to record multiple stations at the same time and amount of shows that be recorded to the unit. Most PVRs now are unlikely to ever be filled up as people delete once they have watched eah show they recorded.

The Youview boxes, Freesat Freetime boxes & Freeview Play boxes are ALL PVRs, as is a Sky+ or Tivo box.
The broadcasters now have much more control of the boxes/recording than they used too. ITV for example generally have a block on the HD films they broadcast so you can't copy them to Blu-Ray in HD on the Panasonic Blu-Ray recorders. this is done to appease the copyright holders and ITVs bank balance. The BBC can do exactly the same if they choose but at the moment do allow a single copy in HD to be made to disc.
Sky only lets you keep certain downloaded content on your sky box for a certain period of time in accordance with the agreements they made with the copyright holders
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Old 10-12-2016, 15:42
skinj
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Go for the Panasonic DMR-BWT850. It ain't cheap, but you can transfer your TV shows to blu ray. Go on, be a 'pirate' LOL
Just be aware that some of the HD content is blocked from being copied in HD to disc due to copyright restrictions imposed by the content owners. Other stuff is only copyable once.
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Old 10-12-2016, 15:49
emptybox
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I work in the industry selling these things & have done for 20ys.
I know what a PVR is.
The whole point of a PVR is that you can record something when you're not around and watch it later on. if you want, most PVRs let your store the recording for as long as you want but that is not the whole point of them. Most don't let you copy the recording off of the unit either. The big benefit of PVRs for the consumer is the capability to record multiple stations at the same time and amount of shows that be recorded to the unit. Most PVRs now are unlikely to ever be filled up as people delete once they have watched eah show they recorded.

The Youview, Freesat Freetime box & Freeview Play boxes are ALL PVRs, as is a Sky+ or Tivo box.
The broadcasters now have much more control of the boxes/recording than they used too. ITV for example generally have a block on the HD films they broadcast so you can't copy them to Blu-Ray in HD on the Panasonic Blu-Ray recorders. this is done to appease the copyright holders and ITVs bank balance. The BBC can do exactly the same if they choose but at the moment do allow a single copy in HD to be made to disc.
Sky only lets you keep certain downloaded content on your sky box for a certain period of time in accordance with the agreements they made with the copyright holders
Actually the basic BT Youview box supplied on the starter package is not a PVR.
BT TV packages and deals
It has the capacity to pause and rewind live TV, but not to record anything else.
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Old 10-12-2016, 15:58
skinj
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Actually the basic BT Youview box supplied on the starter package is not a PVR.
BT TV packages and deals
It has the capacity to pause and rewind live TV, but not to record anything else.
And?
Pedantic reply to be honest. One box isn't a PVR but the other PVR are PVRs. Brilliant!
BTW Freesat also do a non PVR box that is not a PVR and Freeview do non PVR boxes that are not PVRs. Go figure.

You asked If I was confusing the two things. I stated that they are one and the same. Which when able to record multiple stations to HDD they are.
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Old 10-12-2016, 16:17
emptybox
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And?
Pedantic reply to be honest. One box isn't a PVR but the other PVR are PVRs. Brilliant!
BTW Freesat also do a non PVR box that is not a PVR and Freeview do non PVR boxes that are not PVRs. Go figure.

You asked If I was confusing the two things. I stated that they are one and the same. Which when able to record multiple stations to HDD they are.
How do you mean "And?"
You empasised that they were "ALL" PVRs, and I was pointing out that at least one wasn't. So not much point in you putting all in capital letters.

When PVRs came out, the idea was that you could record whole series to watch in one go, and to keep for as long as you like.
That's why you get 500 GB and higher capacity disks in them. There'd be no need if you were just supposed to record something to watch later and then delete.

I can see that in the early days of HD broadcasting they were paranoid about people taking HD recordings and sharing them, as that might cut into Blu-ray sales. But as we move into a 4K era, I would have thought their attitude to 1080P recordings might relax?

Anyway, I don't see any difference in recording something as a file that can then be watched on multiple devices, from the likes of the Sky Q system, where the idea is that you can watch your recordings on multiple TVs and devices?
Unless that's piracy as well?
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Old 10-12-2016, 16:20
chrisjr
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The whole point of recording to the hard drive in a PVR is that you can keep the programme for as long as you like (or as long as the disk survives).
The gov.uk website would beg to differ with you on that.

Time-shifting A recording of a broadcast can be made in domestic premises for private and domestic use to enable it to be viewed or listened to at a more convenient time.
The making of a recording of a broadcast for purposes other than to time-shift a programme for you or your family is likely to be illegal.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright
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Old 10-12-2016, 16:26
emptybox
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The gov.uk website would beg to differ with you on that.


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright
Depends on how you define "time-shifting" I suppose?
Time could be eternal.

Personally I don't see the difference in watching something back on one device, or watching it on multiple devices, as long as it's not done to share or sell.
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Old 10-12-2016, 16:38
skinj
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When PVRs came out, the idea was that you could record whole series to watch in one go, and to keep for as long as you like.
Wrong. the idea was that the box would record each episode without you having to remember each week to set it. A by-product was that if you had enough space you could wait until the end of the series and watch them all together.

[quote=emptybox;84848057]
That's why you get 500 GB and higher capacity disks in them. There'd be no need if you were just supposed to record something to watch later and then delete.[quote]

HDD Space has got considerably cheeper over the last 15 years. the original Sky+ boxes from memory only had 20hrs of recording space in Standard Def which many people used up over the course of a working week or during a 2-3 week holiday.
Naturally more space has been added as cost have come down but still not with the intention of permanent storage. In theory you could argue that a convenient time to watch a series could be once the whole series has aired

I can see that in the early days of HD broadcasting they were paranoid about people taking HD recordings and sharing them, as that might cut into Blu-ray sales. But as we move into a 4K era, I would have thought their attitude to 1080P recordings might relax?
They still are concerned about piracy but far less so for the average man on the street. most devices don't copy to disc any more. if they do they can be shackled to only do so in HD once or only in SD. The latest SKY HD & SKY Q boxes have no connections to record from except HDMI which is locked down for copyright enforcement anyway.
If people want to set up a business pirating something then they can get far more involved and spend on equipment to allow them to circumvent the issues but that is always going to happen. By stopping Geoff at the pub doing it for a couple of quid a go the copyright holders are kept happier.


Anyway, I don't see any difference in recording something as a file that can then be watched on multiple devices, from the likes of the Sky Q system, where the idea is that you can watch your recordings on multiple TVs and devices?
Unless that's piracy as well?
Well the Copyright holders do. they want to sell you the product to play on your TV , or on your Blu-ray player, or via your tablet/SmartPhone.
the Sky Q system isn't something that is magic and gets around the payment the copyrights holders want, these costs are simply paid for by Sky from the subscription base, which is one reason why the Q subscription is more expensive as is the option to have Sky Go for more than 2 devices on your account..
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Old 10-12-2016, 16:50
Nigel Goodwin
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The whole point of recording to the hard drive in a PVR is that you can keep the programme for as long as you like (or as long as the disk survives).
Not at all, it's for 'short term' time shifting, and many instruction books warn you about trying to use them for archiving (as the HDD or box WILL fail).


And to Nigel.
I presume you refuse to own a PVR on principle then, if you regard it a "piracy"?
Of course I own one, and use it for short term time shifting, as it's intended to be used.
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:42
emptybox
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Well the Copyright holders do. they want to sell you the product to play on your TV , or on your Blu-ray player, or via your tablet/SmartPhone.
the Sky Q system isn't something that is magic and gets around the payment the copyrights holders want, these costs are simply paid for by Sky from the subscription base, which is one reason why the Q subscription is more expensive as is the option to have Sky Go for more than 2 devices on your account..
I concede the point about Sky Q subscriptions. But even viewers watching Freeview have 'paid' for the programmes through their TV Licence or by sitting through endless adverts on the commercial channels.

It's all very well copyright holders having ambitions on what and how they want to sell to consumers. But if the consumers aren't buying it, they're on a hiding to nothing trying to legislate against activities that are regarded by most as perfectly legitimate.
I've always believed they would probably sell more if they relaxed a bit.

Having said that, I'm the sort who only tends to watch something once, whether it be a film or TV prog, or even reading a book. So I've got shelves of DVDs and Blu-rays that I've only watched one time, so a bit of a waste of money.
(the family do sometimes want to watch them, if they come round - piracy? )

The only real exception is classic comedy shows.
I've probably had 30 odd episodes of 'The Big Bang Theory' on my PVR for a few years, and I dip into them if I'm wanting some amusement.
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:58
anthony david
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When we had only four channels it was worth keeping things on VHS as there was often little to watch. Nowadays in a world of lots of channels, endless repeats and catch up services as well as PVRs there is little point in doing so. A while ago I threw out a vast number of VHS tapes, not because of the poor technical quality as they were adequate for an occasional viewing, but because they hadn't been viewed in years and were just a waste of space. A number of DVDs have gone to the charity shop for the same reason.
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Old 10-12-2016, 18:02
skinj
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I concede the point about Sky Q subscriptions. But even viewers watching Freeview have 'paid' for the programmes through their TV Licence or by sitting through endless adverts on the commercial channels.
You have (effectively) paid to watch them as they are broadcast only, with an accepted ability to timeshift on a recorder. That's it. The copyright holder has transferred no other rights to you as the viewer at all.
You can think whatever you want about what is fair but that is the legal situation if applied. Of course you're unlikely to ever have anyone demand to inspect your recorded archive but if they did there could be issues.
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Old 10-12-2016, 18:39
misar
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The debate about what is or is not legal is largely academic for the majority of Freeview (or Freesat) viewers. The licencing conditions for manufacturers to use the logo, EPG, etc means that almost all of the "official" hardware physically prevents you from making and keeping any copies the broadcasters don't want you to have. So if your Freeview PVR etc lets you do it you are safe.
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