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BBC FM switchoff date - guessing game.


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Old 10-12-2016, 03:37
swb1964
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Anyone up for a little wee competition to see who gets nearest the correct date?

Just for fun. Shall we try to guess the month and year of the switchoff of the BBCs national FM network?

I'll go for April 2028. Anyone else want to play?
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Old 10-12-2016, 07:03
Resonance
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August 2023

Just s thought will they have a date when it all goes, or will it be staggered like the digital TV switchover?
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Old 10-12-2016, 07:55
gardensleeper
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Let's look at the other BBC analogue services to get a sense of where national FM may fit in:

BBC locals AM - widely reported almost all will go by the end of 2017, barring rural services with poor FM coverage (Eg Cumbria, and Norfolk apparently)

R4 Droitwitch 198 - 'When the valves run out' - date depends on how the equipment fares. I would have thought the beeb would use the end of droitwich LW as an opportunity to turn off the various MW sites for R4 too? Then there's the question of whether to keep Burghead & Redmoss, which cover remote parts of Scotland.

5Live - I'm not aware of any set date yet, but surely this would go before the FM nationals? Their drive away from analogue has been evident for a few years now.

Bearing in mind you can (shockingly) still walk into a showroom and buy a brand new car with an analogue only radio, I'd say we have at least another 5 years.

There's also the question of how long Classic would hang on to FM for (when's their license renewal?)
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Old 10-12-2016, 09:26
swb1964
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Just s thought will they have a date when it all goes, or will it be staggered like the digital TV switchover?
The reason there was a staged switchover for TV was that analogue and DTT signals shared the same waveband and you couldn't turn digital up to full power until analogue was gone.

This doesn't apply for radio so my *guess*, and it is only a guess, is that we will have a single date when the entire BBC FM network is switched off.
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Old 10-12-2016, 09:43
SouthCity
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Just s thought will they have a date when it all goes, or will it be staggered like the digital TV switchover?
I would predict 2023 for national stations, with the announcement being made in early 2018.

2023 is the year that that all three analogue INR licences expire (they have already had two statutory rollovers).. I think it will be done by region, starting with the region with highest DAB ownership (Northern Ireland may be the last).

The BBC's FM network requires major investment if it's still in place during the 2020s.
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Old 10-12-2016, 10:54
lundavra
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The reason there was a staged switchover for TV was that analogue and DTT signals shared the same waveband and you couldn't turn digital up to full power until analogue was gone.

This doesn't apply for radio so my *guess*, and it is only a guess, is that we will have a single date when the entire BBC FM network is switched off.
It is complicated in Scotland and Wales (and presumably Northern Ireland) by the local services relying on expansion of commercial MUXes so having limited coverage until then.

I presume the Band II antenna will be removed.
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Old 10-12-2016, 11:11
catherine91
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I wouldn't be surprised if they were still broadcasting at the end of the 20s. As gardensleeper mentioned, the in-car radios will probably delay things. My 64-reg car has an analogue-only radio, and at the moment I don't want to pay for a DAB radio as I don't spend a lot of time driving. I'm hoping to still have the car in 2025! By 2030 there will still be early-10s cars on the road.
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Old 10-12-2016, 11:25
ndev70
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Just for fun. Shall we try to guess the month and year of the switchoff of the BBCs national FM network?
January 2025

How many areas remain where there's a decent FM signal for BBC Radios 1-4, but no suitable DAB signal to replace it?
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Old 10-12-2016, 11:29
swb1964
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It is complicated in Scotland and Wales (and presumably Northern Ireland) by the local services relying on expansion of commercial MUXes so having limited coverage until then.

Just to stress I'm talking about a date for the switchoff of the BBC *national* networks- ie Radios 1,2,3 and 4 on FM. Local broadcasting might continue indefinitely on FM, or at least for a few more years, and they might even pick up listeners from the handful of people still driving cars with analogue only radios on board....

Anyway, it's just for fun, so let's have some more guesses!
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Old 10-12-2016, 11:41
Shimano
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poor FM coverage (Eg Cumbria, and Norfolk apparently)?)
Wasn't aware that Norfolk had poor FM coverage. Quite the opposite in my experience.
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Old 10-12-2016, 11:46
Mark C
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It is complicated in Scotland and Wales (and presumably Northern Ireland) by the local services relying on expansion of commercial MUXes so having limited coverage until then.
.
And also in parts of England, no local DAB muxes in Cumbria, or Northumberland, and other counties with very incomplete coverage, Dorset, Somerset, Devon, Cornwall, Glos,.....
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Old 10-12-2016, 11:49
Mark C
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The reason there was a staged switchover for TV was that analogue and DTT signals shared the same waveband and you couldn't turn digital up to full power until analogue was gone.
.
That's one reason, the other was all 50 main UHF sites had to be extensively re-engineered for high power DTT, and a lot of that was only possible in the summer. So DSO had to be spread over five years
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Old 10-12-2016, 11:55
tghe-retford
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We had analogue only TV's until a few years before switchover, some current phones don't do 4G - a few budget ones don't even do 3G and other technological advances that people are happy to pay £100's out for every few years but with upgrading radio to DAB and in particular, any transition to DAB+ - no, absolutely not, out of bounds, strictly verboten. It is this resistance to upgrade by car manufacturers and consumers which will keep kicking DAB and any DAB+ transition into the long grass for a long while whilst places such as Norway just gets on with it.

As for FM switchover, I'd be surprised if the FM airwaves were silent by 2030.
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Old 10-12-2016, 11:55
swb1964
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That's one reason, the other was all 50 main UHF sites had to be extensively re-engineered for high power DTT, and a lot of that was only possible in the summer. So DSO had to be spread over five years
Again, an issue that doesn't really apply here, because the DAB network is pretty much complete already.
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Old 10-12-2016, 12:00
lundavra
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Again, an issue that doesn't really apply here, because the DAB network is pretty much complete already.
Many people would disagree with that.
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Old 10-12-2016, 12:06
lundavra
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How many areas remain where there's a decent FM signal for BBC Radios 1-4, but no suitable DAB signal to replace it?
I suspect that if all existing VHF FM stations had DAB installed then coverage would be as good as VHF FM coverage, if not better. Some could be improved by putting the DAB on another higher site that could not be used on VHF FM because of potential interference to other areas that does not always apply with a SFN.
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Old 10-12-2016, 13:07
swb1964
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I suspect that if all existing VHF FM stations had DAB installed then coverage would be as good as VHF FM coverage, if not better.
How many are left that don't? I can't think of many in the midlands although there are obviously several in more remote parts of the country...
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Old 10-12-2016, 13:15
Mark C
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How many are left that don't? I can't think of many in the midlands although there are obviously several in more remote parts of the country...
As far as the BBC national mux is concerned, I don't think there are any sites that don't already carry BBC national FM, that are not also DAB sites ? (I'll exclude examples like Mounteagle, that's used instead of Rosemarkie, because it's covering (at least ) the same area that RM would for DAB), Of course there are dozens more BBC DAB transmitters that are fill ins, mostly at UHF TV sites, or mobile phone masts

Local DAB (where it exists) isn't quite at the BBC National level in some areas, D1 and D2 falls well short of course
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Old 10-12-2016, 13:21
Shimano
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Again, an issue that doesn't really apply here, because the DAB network is pretty much complete already.
A 'complete' shambles perhaps.
Listening in a car is a hit-and-miss effort - but when you get outside of major cities, the coverage is generally pitiful.
OFCOM fondly believed that they could get away with very low transmitter power. Sadly, the reality is rather different, you get the "bubbling mud" distortion and even complete blackouts as you drive along in your car.

OFCOM also claim that "up to" 40% of listening is done on DAB - that's like saying your ISP data rate can be "up-to 80Mb/s" when it's actually 1Mb/s. The real figure is somewhere around 5% - there's many more still listening to Medium Wave!
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Old 10-12-2016, 13:27
swb1964
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As far as the BBC national mux is concerned, I don't think there are any sites that don't already carry BBC national FM, that are not also DAB sites ?
I'm struggling, as Lord Sugar would say.

Places like Ness of Lewis and Daliburgh in the outer Hebrides are the only ones that spring immediately to mind, which is desperate stuff!
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Old 10-12-2016, 13:40
Sid Law
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I'm struggling, as Lord Sugar would say.

Places like Ness of Lewis and Daliburgh in the outer Hebrides are the only ones that spring immediately to mind, which is desperate stuff!
Rosemount near Blairgowrie doesn't have DAB.
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Old 10-12-2016, 13:49
Peter the Great
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A 'complete' shambles perhaps.
Listening in a car is a hit-and-miss effort - but when you get outside of major cities, the coverage is generally pitiful.
OFCOM fondly believed that they could get away with very low transmitter power. Sadly, the reality is rather different, you get the "bubbling mud" distortion and even complete blackouts as you drive along in your car.

OFCOM also claim that "up to" 40% of listening is done on DAB - that's like saying your ISP data rate can be "up-to 80Mb/s" when it's actually 1Mb/s. The real figure is somewhere around 5% - there's many more still listening to Medium Wave!
This is absolute nonsense. DAB works very well in the car in most areas if the radio is properly installed. It certainly works better than FM.
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Old 10-12-2016, 14:10
Sophie_Greene
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This is absolute nonsense. DAB works very well in the car in most areas if the radio is properly installed. It certainly works better than FM.
But with such low bitrates used the sound quality is far worse!
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Old 10-12-2016, 14:19
CeeO
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But with such low bitrates used the sound quality is far worse!
Exactly. And the bold (and laughable) claim that DAB 'works better than FM' (?) is baffling in itself. FM, certainly in this area, is well served and car reception is very good - DAB on the other hand, as already mentioned - is patchy, bubbly and unreliable.
FM seems to win on all levels
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Old 10-12-2016, 14:27
swb1964
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This is absolute nonsense. DAB works very well in the car in most areas if the radio is properly installed. It certainly works better than FM.
My thoughts exactly. Shimano, are you using a proper DAB set with a proper DAB aerial? The aerial is really important for good reception.
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