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BBC FM switchoff date - guessing game.


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Old 10-12-2016, 14:58
gardensleeper
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My thoughts exactly. Shimano, are you using a proper DAB set with a proper DAB aerial? The aerial is really important for good reception.
It's true. The difference between a properly installed factory fit bad setup (in my company car), vs the Pure Highway I was previously using is like night and day. The factory fit works brilliantly everywhere I've been. The highway, very hit and miss.
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Old 10-12-2016, 15:13
Peter the Great
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Exactly. And the bold (and laughable) claim that DAB 'works better than FM' (?) is baffling in itself. FM, certainly in this area, is well served and car reception is very good - DAB on the other hand, as already mentioned - is patchy, bubbly and unreliable.
FM seems to win on all levels
Nonsense. FM is crap. It needs numerous frequencies to broadcast nationally, there is drifting, hiss, stations interfering with each other and it often drops to mono. So despite some stations being in mono on DAB I can still hear more stations in stereo on DAB than FM. Then add the fact that the choice on FM is appalling in most areas means I now use DAB all the time in the car.
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Old 10-12-2016, 15:20
swb1964
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FM....needs numerous frequencies to broadcast nationally.
Yes. This to me is one of the biggest advantages to DAB for national broadcasting. So whatever happens with local radio, DAB has to be the way to go for national radio.
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Old 10-12-2016, 15:23
Adam792
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Exactly. And the bold (and laughable) claim that DAB 'works better than FM' (?) is baffling in itself. FM, certainly in this area, is well served and car reception is very good - DAB on the other hand, as already mentioned - is patchy, bubbly and unreliable.
FM seems to win on all levels
See it's completely the opposite around in here.

The BBC national FM coverage is shocking in some of Midlands' bigger towns and cities, Nottingham, Stoke and where I live in Worcester being three good examples.

In-car DAB has been a massive improvement for me. Rock solid reception all around here, including out of area stations from Birmingham.

I can listen to Radio 1 without so much as a glitch, whereas on FM it's constantly going fuzzy and endlessly switching between Sutton Coldfield, Wenvoe and Ridge Hill to try and find the least worst signal.
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Old 10-12-2016, 15:27
Peter the Great
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But with such low bitrates used the sound quality is far worse!
Except in the car it isn't. The constant drifting, fading and switching to mono makes the listening experience in the car worse for FM.
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Old 10-12-2016, 15:59
Gerry1
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This doesn't apply for radio so my *guess*, and it is only a guess, is that we will have a single date when the entire BBC FM network is switched off.
That certainly won't happen, the fallout would be unacceptable. If it happens, it will be little by little.

R1 is the obvious candidate to be first for the chop. MPs won't worry about losing any sleep or their seats: few have the time or inclination to listen to it, they regard it as pop 'n' prattle and few constituents will be lobbying them, they'll just listen online or via DAB. If their cars don't have DAB they'll switch to commercial stations, mobile data or use a converter.

R2 would be the next candidate, once any fuss about R1 had been forgotten. Local radio could relay it overnight, and perhaps also in the mid evening; some people may switch to Freeview and satellite.

R3 and R4 are the big problems. Few listen to R3 but they will have the ears of the Establishment, and they won't be content with Classic FM as a substitute. Nor will their DAB kitchen radios be an acceptable substitute for their hi-fi analogue-only tuners. There are very few DAB hi-fi tuners around so there's aren't many quick and easy fixes where and when online, Freeview and satellite aren't acceptable.

Commercial stations will make their own decisions in their own time unless Ofcom is stupid enough to mandate a DSO, so there won't be the fuss that would be caused by a big bang.
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Old 10-12-2016, 16:04
Gerry1
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Except in the car it isn't. The constant drifting...
You're still using a car radio with a red needle moved by piece of string wrapped around the spindle of a rotary knob ??
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Old 10-12-2016, 16:29
lundavra
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I'm struggling, as Lord Sugar would say.

Places like Ness of Lewis and Daliburgh in the outer Hebrides are the only ones that spring immediately to mind, which is desperate stuff!
Not absolutely sure, just going from memory and the list on the BBC website is not up-to-date but scanning down the list of VHF FM sites.

Fort Augustus, Ballachulish, Kinlochleven, Ardgour, Campbeltown, Bowmore, Glengorm, Mallaig, Penifiler, Strachur, Ullapool, Lethanhill,
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Old 10-12-2016, 16:31
lundavra
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But with such low bitrates used the sound quality is far worse!
As opposed to multipath distortion, noise, flutter etc on VHF FM? I usually don't bother retuning to VHF FM if I go out of DAB coverage because it sounds so poor compared to DAB.
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Old 10-12-2016, 16:31
lundavra
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Exactly. And the bold (and laughable) claim that DAB 'works better than FM' (?) is baffling in itself. FM, certainly in this area, is well served and car reception is very good - DAB on the other hand, as already mentioned - is patchy, bubbly and unreliable.
FM seems to win on all levels
Suffolk is hardly a difficult place to cover!
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Old 10-12-2016, 16:53
tghe-retford
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My thoughts exactly. Shimano, are you using a proper DAB set with a proper DAB aerial? The aerial is really important for good reception.
This is what I warned about. I did a test of numerous pocket radios to verify this and inform the public, and what the radio industry should be taking note of - the consequences that a bad experience of a DAB set-up with a low sensitivity tuner and a poor aerial can cloud the judgement of listeners. A double whammy that people will put up more with FM in mono and with hiss than they will with "bubbling mud" with DAB or easier on the ear dropouts with DAB+. Consumers have virtually no help with being able to judge if a radio set is sensitive enough to pick up DAB services without issues (the Digital Radio UK tick mark has a minimum sensitivity requirement but in my pocket radio testing, the lowest performing radios were tick marked!) and may deem the provided aerial as sufficient for reception when in some cases in weaker signal areas, that will not be the case. Once someone gets put off DAB, they'll stick with FM and/or move to Internet radio and it'll be difficult to get them back.

The Norwegian digital radio switchover is informing consumers about aerial types and how to improve the reception of DAB. Digital Radio UK should take note. Although in my part of the world, people are starting to take note of the importance of the antenna as I am seeing more dipoles and vertically aligned yagi's going up in recent times.
Yes. This to me is one of the biggest advantages to DAB for national broadcasting. So whatever happens with local radio, DAB has to be the way to go for national radio.
DAB was the way to go for national radio. By FM switchover DAB+ should be the way to go for national radio - and all other radio too.
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:20
CeeO
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Suffolk is hardly a difficult place to cover!
In the case of DAB it would appear that it is.
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:26
Mark C
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A 'complete' shambles perhaps.
Listening in a car is a hit-and-miss effort - but when you get outside of major cities, the coverage is generally pitiful.
What car radio are you using ? What you say is a wild exaggeration as far as the BBC national mux is concerned
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:29
Shimano
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DAB = 'Dead And Buried' - those living in a fantasy world about how brilliant it is are in dire need of a reality check.
DAB is a low quality, poorly implemented and inadequate fudge at the moment.

FM will still be with us for the foreseeable future. The proposed "switch-off" probably won't happen in the next 20 or 30 years, and OFCOM will finally realise that it isn't necessary for national stations to monopolise 60% of the band, and that some intelligent VHF/FM band planning will improve coverage for everyone, and allow many more local stations.
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:40
Mark C
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Not absolutely sure, just going from memory and the list on the BBC website is not up-to-date but scanning down the list of VHF FM sites.

Fort Augustus, Ballachulish, Kinlochleven, Ardgour, Campbeltown, Bowmore, Glengorm, Mallaig, Penifiler, Strachur, Ullapool, Lethanhill,
Cambeltown has carried BBC DAB since May 2015 according to my records ?

The other sites still don't, though that's not to say the areas they are in are not served by DAB transmitters on masts that are not used for FM or TV. Quite a few mobile phone masts are used for DAB,
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Old 10-12-2016, 17:40
swb1964
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Shimano are you going to answer our questions so we can help you or are you just going to moan?
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Old 10-12-2016, 18:07
gardensleeper
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DAB = 'Dead And Buried' - those living in a fantasy world about how brilliant it is are in dire need of a reality check.
DAB is a low quality, poorly implemented and inadequate fudge at the moment.

FM will still be with us for the foreseeable future. The proposed "switch-off" probably won't happen in the next 20 or 30 years, and OFCOM will finally realise that it isn't necessary for national stations to monopolise 60% of the band, and that some intelligent VHF/FM band planning will improve coverage for everyone, and allow many more local stations.
That would be nice, but there are too many vested and political interests pushing on DAB whether it is better or not.

I think it's likely that over the 20/30 year timescale which you quote, IP delivered audio, if we still call it 'radio' by then, will supersede both FM and DAB.
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Old 10-12-2016, 19:02
Peter the Great
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DAB = 'Dead And Buried' - those living in a fantasy world about how brilliant it is are in dire need of a reality check.
DAB is a low quality, poorly implemented and inadequate fudge at the moment.

FM will still be with us for the foreseeable future. The proposed "switch-off" probably won't happen in the next 20 or 30 years, and OFCOM will finally realise that it isn't necessary for national stations to monopolise 60% of the band, and that some intelligent VHF/FM band planning will improve coverage for everyone, and allow many more local stations.
I think you need a reality check if you think there is a need for more local radio stations. There isn't the money and most so called local stations are now Heart, Capital or the Breeze. DAB can offer more national stations which can offer more specialist formats that could never be done on a local level. No one is saying DAB is perfect but on the move in the car it works so much better than FM and offers a wider choice of stations.
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Old 10-12-2016, 19:05
technologist
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Suffolk is hardly a difficult place to cover!
Except that there is the Netherlands nearby ........
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Old 10-12-2016, 19:09
Mark C
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Except that there is the Netherlands nearby ........
Yep, drove along the A12 in Suffolk near Southwold listening to this

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0mx3qdg786...00.47.jpg?dl=0

It's the only DAB+ you're likely to hear for a long time in that part of the county !
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Old 10-12-2016, 20:43
david16
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Let's look at the other BBC analogue services to get a sense of where national FM may fit in:

BBC locals AM - widely reported almost all will go by the end of 2017, barring rural services with poor FM coverage (Eg Cumbria, and Norfolk apparently)

R4 Droitwitch 198 - 'When the valves run out' - date depends on how the equipment fares. I would have thought the beeb would use the end of droitwich LW as an opportunity to turn off the various MW sites for R4 too? Then there's the question of whether to keep Burghead & Redmoss, which cover remote parts of Scotland.

5Live - I'm not aware of any set date yet, but surely this would go before the FM nationals? Their drive away from analogue has been evident for a few years now.

Bearing in mind you can (shockingly) still walk into a showroom and buy a brand new car with an analogue only radio, I'd say we have at least another 5 years.

There's also the question of how long Classic would hang on to FM for (when's their license renewal?)
What about Radio Scotland, Radio Wales and Radio Ulster. Will AM close down at the same time as?

If Classic FM became digital only, Classic DAB would not be a good replacement name for that station.
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Old 10-12-2016, 23:16
Richard_T
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R1 is the obvious candidate to be first for the chop. MPs won't worry about losing any sleep or their seats: few have the time or inclination to listen to it, they regard it as pop 'n' prattle and few constituents will be lobbying them, they'll just listen online or via DAB. If their cars don't have DAB they'll switch to commercial stations, mobile data or use a converter.
Maybe booting Radio 1 off FM could be used as a means to shut down radio 5 on Medium wave, where Radio1 follows BBC3 into the online only owrld, freeing up sapce top move Radio 5 to FM and in turn doing away with, or selling off 909&693
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Old 11-12-2016, 02:53
Mr Pringle
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Suffolk is hardly a difficult place to cover!
Have you ever driven into Felixstowe from Ipswich? Suffolk = Norfolk in each places to cover, neither are flat. Nor is Lincolnshire, as an aside, albeit the Candlesby Chalk Pit DAB site is only 60m or so above sea level.
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Old 11-12-2016, 08:19
Chris_Hulse1
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But with such low bitrates used the sound quality is far worse!
And also battery life that is poor........
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Old 11-12-2016, 08:21
Chris_Hulse1
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What about Radio Scotland, Radio Wales and Radio Ulster. Will AM close down at the same time as?

If Classic FM became digital only, Classic DAB would not be a good replacement name for that station.
Radio Wales/Scotland will stay on AM i would of thought for some years yet due to the difficult terrain and poor DAB/FM coverage.
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