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confirmed: Russia interfered with USA elections (secret cia assessment)


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Old 13-12-2016, 03:17
bollywood
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“The Russians are not our friends,” Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) told reporters Monday, voicing his support for an inquiry."


"To that end, the Russian government directed the hacking of emails to and from Democratic Party organizations and Hillary Clinton’s campaign chairman, John Podesta, and then selectively disseminated this material through WikiLeaks and other outlets. The Department of Homeland Security and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence reached that conclusion months ago and said so in a public statement on Oct. 7."
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Old 13-12-2016, 08:39
Aetius_Maralas
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The CIA complaining about foreign governments installing right wing politicians.

And they say the universe doesn't have a sense of humour.
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Old 13-12-2016, 08:55
Parker45
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With these accusations of Russian hacking, it's worth remembering that during the cold war the US intelligence agencies vastly overestimated the number of missiles held by Russia. They have a history of over-inflating Russia's potential as an enemy.....but of course it helps the armed services and the defence industries to portray them like that.
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Old 13-12-2016, 10:27
bollywood
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With these accusations of Russian hacking, it's worth remembering that during the cold war the US intelligence agencies vastly overestimated the number of missiles held by Russia. They have a history of over-inflating Russia's potential as an enemy.....but of course it helps the armed services and the defence industries to portray them like that.
That was also more recently a Republican debate tactic, that the Russians have newer weapons.
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Old 13-12-2016, 10:33
bollywood
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The CIA complaining about foreign governments installing right wing politicians.

And they say the universe doesn't have a sense of humour.
Well yeah, the US wanted to oust Assad's cruel regime.

I'm not sure how that compares to trying to oust a candidate who wants to fight global warming and have health insurance for the poor.
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Old 13-12-2016, 10:35
Aetius_Maralas
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Well yeah, the US wanted to oust Assad's cruel regime.

I'm not sure how that compares to trying to oust a candidate who wants to fight global warming and have health insurance for the poor.
Sigh.

Try reading up on the CIA acts against democratically elected leaders before trying to score cheap points. You won't look quite so silly.
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Old 13-12-2016, 10:39
Doctor_Wibble
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Try reading up on the CIA acts against democratically elected leaders before trying to score cheap points. You won't look quite so silly.
Good luck with that. Even my obnoxiously sarcastic attempt at a patronising over-explanation failed to get anything other than a 'whoosh'...
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Old 13-12-2016, 10:42
bollywood
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Sigh.

Try reading up on the CIA acts against democratically elected leaders before trying to score cheap points. You won't look quite so silly.
What is your argument? That two wrongs make a right?

"Senior Russian Senior military and intelligence officers admit that the KGB blew up Russian apartment buildings and falsely blamed it on Chechens, in order to justify an invasion of Chechnya."
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Old 13-12-2016, 10:45
bollywood
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Good luck with that. Even my obnoxiously sarcastic attempt at a patronising over-explanation failed to get anything other than a 'whoosh'...
The 'what about them' defense doesn't work once someone gets caught, does it. Then there are consequences and attempts to right the situation.

This is only about whether or not the Russians did it, not about who behaved badly in the past.

Edit: I pointed out that the Republicans overestimated Russia's weapons this very election.
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Old 13-12-2016, 10:57
Doctor_Wibble
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This is only about whether or not the Russians did it, not about who behaved badly in the past.
The credibility of the accusation is entirely dependent on the credibility of the accuser, and it seems only reasonable in light of this credibility that a reasonable standard of evidence is requested, and as far as I am aware, none has been presented except to politicians who either can't be trusted to keep secrets or were asked to publicise the accusation without providing any evidence of the existence of the original evidence upon which the accusation was based.

The credibility formula:
Politician+CIA==Politician+(KGB+FSB)==zero, zilch, nil, nought, nothing, nada, square root of naff all, total absence of anything of substance, etni, etni*...



* 'et nihil' as opposed to 'et cetera', i.e. 'and nothing' instead of 'and the rest', purely to emphasise the lack of anything, as opposed to being a contraction of 'et ni' which of course would be a Python reference and therefore far more worthy than any attempt to re-ignite the cold war, even if that is a somewhat counterintuitive and self-contradictory turn of phrase...
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Old 13-12-2016, 11:03
bollywood
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The credibility of the accusation is entirely dependent on the credibility of the accuser, and it seems only reasonable in light of this credibility that a reasonable standard of evidence is requested, and as far as I am aware, none has been presented except to politicians who either can't be trusted to keep secrets or were asked to publicise the accusation without providing any evidence of the existence of the evidence upon which the accusation was based.

The credibility formula:
Politician+CIA=Politician+(KGB+FSB)=zero, zilch, nil, nought, nothing, nada, square root of naff all, total absence of anything of substance, etni, etni*...


* 'et nihil' as opposed to 'et cetera', purely to emphasise the lack of anything, as opposed to being a contraction of 'et ni' which of course would be a Python reference and therefore far more worthy than any attempt to re-ignite the cold war, even if that is a somewhat counterintuitive and self-contradictory turn of phrase...
That's your opinion, no evidence, but many politicians both Republican and Democrat, concur that the CIA have made the link at least to one step next to the Russian government.

I'm not sure what you expect, that the CIA is going to compromise its methods and staff by publishing in the news, what they have and naming names. So that any agents close to those names would be outed? That's pretty naive.

Why Obama wants the investigation to be secret.

Just because you don't know what Senators and Congressman know, doesn't =no evidence.

P.S. I don't see where anyone wants to re-ignite the Cold War.
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Old 13-12-2016, 11:12
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From TheHill.com:

"Rep. Jim Himes (D-Conn.) on Monday said that Russia’s hacking of the United States presidential election “is not open to debate.”

“This is not a fact that is in dispute by any of our 17 intelligence agencies, and I’ve been in the room, as have my colleagues,” Himes told CNN’s “New Day.”

So maybe if he was in the room, you think he has more information than the public?

Not to mention that kompromat is a well known Russian strategy. People only have to think there are very damaging emails against Hillary. The emails don't have to exist. What Assange did with his announcements. Must have learned kompromat well.
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Old 13-12-2016, 11:24
Doctor_Wibble
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So maybe if he was in the room, you think he has more information than the public?
I think he knows what he's been shown, and I'm impressed not just that they have 17(!) intelligence agencies, but that they were all represented in that room and signalled unequivocal agreement with one another.

Not to mention that kompromat is a well known Russian strategy. People only have to think there are very damaging emails against Hillary. The emails don't have to exist. What Assange did with his announcements. Must have learned kompromat well.
And this exact same principle can be applied to the allegations of the Russian hacking, that is the whole flipping point!

Look at me, I know a Russian word, I must have the truth on my side! What about the accusations that Putin's continued success is due in no small part to the work of US agencies?
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Old 13-12-2016, 11:25
bollywood
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This is from the Guardian:

"The head of the British intelligence agency MI6, Alex Younger, has said cyber-attacks, propaganda and subversion from hostile states pose a “fundamental threat” to European democracies, including the UK.

In a rare speech by an MI6 chief while in office, Younger did not specifically name Russia but left no doubt that this was the target of his remarks. Russia has been accused of interfering in the US presidential election and there are concerns it could do the same in French and German elections next year."

So that means MI6 has no evidence either?

That makes 18 misinformed intelligence agencies!
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Old 13-12-2016, 11:27
Doctor_Wibble
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This is from the Guardian:

"The head of the British intelligence agency MI6, Alex Younger, has said cyber-attacks, propaganda and subversion from hostile states pose a “fundamental threat” to European democracies, including the UK.
Of course they pose a threat! How is that not blindingly obvious?

The question here is whether Russian agencies conspired to actually mess about with the US elections as opposed to the normal run of the mill hacking for fun and profit.
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Old 13-12-2016, 11:27
bollywood
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I think he knows what he's been shown, and I'm impressed not just that they have 17(!) intelligence agencies, but that they were all represented in that room and signalled unequivocal agreement with one another.


And this exact same principle can be applied to the allegations of the Russian hacking, that is the whole flipping point!

Look at me, I know a Russian word, I must have the truth on my side! What about the accusations that Putin's continued success is due in no small part to the work of US agencies?
Do you think MI6 is wrong then as well?

Do you think 'what he's been shown' could have been evidence?
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Old 13-12-2016, 11:30
Doctor_Wibble
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Do you think MI6 is wrong then as well?
WTF are you on about? This is to do with US politicians relating third-hand information to the press which all reads like an attempt to re-run the cold war.

The remark from MI6 is linked to the US elections accusations BY THE REPORTER not by MI6.
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Old 13-12-2016, 11:31
bollywood
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Of course they pose a threat! How is that not blindingly obvious?

The question here is whether Russian agencies conspired to actually mess about with the US elections as opposed to the normal run of the mill hacking for fun and profit.
You don't think then that Russia benefiting from Trump being elected President, Tillerson who has a great relationship with Russia, and Assange hoping for a break from Trump, has any bearing?

That's what we call circumstantial evidence in the U.S. Put the puzzle pieces together. You don't always need the smoking gun.
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Old 13-12-2016, 11:33
bollywood
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WTF are you on about? This is to do with US politicians relating third-hand information to the press which all reads like an attempt to re-run the cold war.
We must read different news sources because being in the U.S., I get an entirely different take on it. This is a protective stance not an aggressor stance. I frequently find that people in other countries have a different impression of our politics. Obama has been largely about avoiding conflict unless there's no choice.
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Old 13-12-2016, 11:36
Doctor_Wibble
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... This is a protective stance not an aggressor stance. ...
It's political grandstanding and a whole crapload of opportunism, i.e. a re-run of the cold war. Given the pace of technology I fully expect a new star wars programme to be announced in the next year or two instead of waiting a decade.
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Old 13-12-2016, 11:39
bollywood
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It's political grandstanding and a whole crapload of opportunism, i.e. a re-run of the cold war.
Well now you changed your argument to it's a re-run, not the same as a deliberate attempt to start it.

Yes chilled relations could be the outcome. Doesn't mean that was the motive for releasing the intelligence.

Obama as I said, has not been about that.

It's not grandstanding to tell another country to get out of our election process.
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Old 13-12-2016, 11:40
Aetius_Maralas
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What is your argument? That two wrongs make a right?

"Senior Russian Senior military and intelligence officers admit that the KGB blew up Russian apartment buildings and falsely blamed it on Chechens, in order to justify an invasion of Chechnya."
As if the point didn't go far enough over your head the first time, you start digging an even deeper hole.

The Hubble telescope will be needd at this rate.
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Old 13-12-2016, 11:41
mebiscuit
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Well yeah, the US wanted to oust Assad's cruel regime.

I'm not sure how that compares to trying to oust a candidate who wants to fight global warming and have health insurance for the poor.
Have you any evidence that Assad is responsible for a "cruel regime" other than what the mainstream is telling you?

If his regime was so cruel, why has it not been reported in out media that his "regime" have recaptured Allepo from the so called "moderate rebels" who by the way are actually terrorists that Obama is now funding!
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Old 13-12-2016, 11:43
bollywood
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Have you any evidence that Assad is responsible for a "cruel regime" other than what the mainstream is telling you?

If his regime was so cruel, why has it not been reported in out media that his "regime" have recaptured Allepo from the so called "moderate rebels" who by the way are actually terrorists that Obama is now funding!
Going to go too far off topic to get into this. Just because one group is bad doesn't make the other good. That is Obama's dilemma.
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Old 13-12-2016, 11:47
bollywood
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As if the point didn't go far enough over your head the first time, you start digging an even deeper hole.

The Hubble telescope will be needd at this rate.
No it didn't go over my head at all. That's your mistaken reading of my post. The CIA has been rightly criticized when it interfered with other countries. As should Russia, if the investigation concludes interference.

There will be consequences of some sort and more vigilance in future.

I'm not understanding all this apologizing for Russia, tbh. Do you not trust MI6 either?

Trust Putin over your own government? I know I'd rather live under Obama than Putin, any day.

I never denied that if the CIA was caught out, they were wrong. Politics is dirty business.

I never painted any side as lily white. Just said fact checking shows Hillary lied less than the other candidates. And that multi millions went into the business of discrediting her.
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