DS Forums

 
 

Poll suggests public will not accept a Brexit that leaves them worse off


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-12-2016, 18:23
allaorta
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
Even when it's patently obvious to any fool that the consequences will be awful?

Ever heard of the saying "cut off your nose to spite your face"?
You've spotted it?
allaorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 11-12-2016, 18:23
GibsonSG
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,772
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...lib-dem-yougov



BIB - just shows how little people knew about what they were voting for.
No shit Sherlock.
GibsonSG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 18:24
allaorta
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
All together now:

God rest ye merry Brexiters
Awash in festive cheer
The boss has pinched your presents
And watered down your beer
They've starved the poor old turkey
There's nothing left inside
The fairy's down the food bank
And the tree is looking bare
We want our country back, they shout
None of your foreign muck
Trouble is we've forgotten
How much comes in by truck
The wine, cheese and Prosecco
Do send more over to us
We didn't mean to dis you
We need you after all
Don't give up the day job.
allaorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 18:27
Mr Oleo Strut
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,311
I'm no supporter of the Tories but zero hours contracts were around long before 2010 and have existed under all colours of Parliament. The Tories have passed laws in an attempt to protect workers and zero hours is something that can only really be used by employers when there is a surfeit of available labour like we have under freedom of movement. Most people working on zero hours contracts like it that way.
Many of the Low Pay Units and wages negotiation boards have been abolished and Industrial Tribunals subjected to means testing. Working practices have been changed and the Unions emasculated. The Tories don't give a toss about worker's rights, they are only concerned with making maximum profits for themselves. Welcome to the new world of workplace slavery!
Mr Oleo Strut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 18:51
Nodger
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: A bunker
Posts: 5,962
The link you gave is interesting in its results but even more interesting when you read that fanatic Remnant comments at the end. I'm sure some post on here.
Indeed. No credible conversation about the actual poll, same as this thread. Just the same old from the same old.
Nodger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 19:24
allaorta
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
Many of the Low Pay Units and wages negotiation boards have been abolished and Industrial Tribunals subjected to means testing. Working practices have been changed and the Unions emasculated. The Tories don't give a toss about worker's rights, they are only concerned with making maximum profits for themselves. Welcome to the new world of workplace slavery!
There's a low pay commission and as I've already said, zero hour contracts have been in place since Adam was a boy. I suggest you look elsewhere for a gripe, like the abundance of immigrant workers.....and no, I'm not having a go at immigrants, just the system that's brought it about, perhaps your socialist Blair government.
allaorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 19:27
allaorta
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
Indeed. No credible conversation about the actual poll, same as this thread. Just the same old from the same old.
As a somewhat useless and soundbyte council chief executive once said, paid opinion will say exactly what you want them to say.
allaorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 20:01
Nodger
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: A bunker
Posts: 5,962
As a somewhat useless and soundbyte council chief executive once said, paid opinion will say exactly what you want them to say.
Sadly, I am becoming ever more suspicious of that actuality in ever more places these days (and i'm not necessarily pointing at the Russians there like everyone else is).
Nodger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 20:22
allaorta
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
Sadly, I am becoming ever more suspicious of that actuality in ever more places these days (and i'm not necessarily pointing at the Russians there like everyone else is).
I've been a player in a few planning inquiries and the wordsmith companies could be on either side and still make a case because that's what they're paid to do; very few, if any, have principles and some of them are lawyers. It's all about wordsmithing, a keyboard without a blush.
allaorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 22:00
Camp Freddie
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Exiting the EU.Hooray !
Posts: 1,505
Even when it's patently obvious to any fool that the consequences will be awful?

Ever heard of the saying "cut off your nose to spite your face"?
The only thing that is patently obvious to me is that some people cannot accept the referendum result and continue to prophesy doom and gloom. This country was better off not being in the Euro and not being part of the Schengen agreement. We will probably be better off not being in the EU as well but only time will tell. If you believe in democracy then you cannot be pro EU and if that is cutting your nose off to spite your face then I`m guilty as charged.
Camp Freddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 22:10
SULLA
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Black Country lad in Yorkshire
Posts: 118,038
The best thing to do is for the government to tell us that we will be better off
SULLA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 07:12
Icaraa
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,727
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...lib-dem-yougov



BIB - just shows how little people knew about what they were voting for.
To be fair, I don't really see the point of having a referendum on the terms of Brexit even. For this very reason, most people don't know anything about the single market, customs union, etc.
Icaraa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 08:03
Morlock
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,087
In the past 6 years, on average, Polish pay has gone up 23%, Germany 14%, France 11%.

The UK's has gone done 10%.

This is due to the Tories pushing zero hour contracts, temporary roles & creating an environment of job insecurity.
Pushing 'self-employment' more than anything, no minimum wage and no work necessary to get off the dole and not be included in unemployment figures. Also increasing welfare to work schemes for those claiming JSA and ESA to again reduce the figures for unemployment and sick or disabled benefits and increase the numbers in 'employment'. It's all a statistics fixing scam.
Morlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 08:06
Morlock
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,087
The Tories have passed laws in an attempt to protect workers...
Hahahahaha! Which laws would they be?
Morlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 08:18
allaorta
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,881
Hahahahaha! Which laws would they be?
Well I was going from memory but a quick Google found this one:

In March 2015, the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015[24] received Royal Assent. On a date to be appointed, s. 153 of the Act will amend the Employment Rights Act 1996, so that exclusivity terms in zero hours contracts will no longer be enforceable, and regulations may specify other circumstances under which employers may not restrict what other work zero hours workers can do.
allaorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 08:33
Morlock
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,087
Well I was going from memory but a quick Google found this one:

In March 2015, the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015[24] received Royal Assent. On a date to be appointed, s. 153 of the Act will amend the Employment Rights Act 1996, so that exclusivity terms in zero hours contracts will no longer be enforceable, and regulations may specify other circumstances under which employers may not restrict what other work zero hours workers can do.
I thought that you might drag up exclusivity clauses. The reason Tories abolished them was because of Universal Credit. Under previous rules, JSA claimants could not be forced under threat of sanction to sign zero hours contracts.

Under Universal Credit, claimants can be forced under threat of sanction to take on a zero hours contract, but the Tories hit a glitch, what if someone already has a zero hours contract with an exclusivity clause? It would be considered unreasonable to expect a person who has a zero hours contract with an exclusivity clause to take on another zero hours contract, and besides the contract forbids that.

So the Tories abolished exclusivity clauses, now Universal Credit claimants can be forced under threat of sanction to sign an infinite amount of zero hours contracts as exclusivity clauses are abolished.

Exclusivity clauses enable the Tories to sanction more Universal Credit claimants unless they take on X amount of zero hours contracts. It has not been implemented to support workers but to support the sanction regime. You have to read between the lines with the Tories.
Morlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 08:38
Peter the Great
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,073
The best thing to do is for the government to tell us that we will be better off
Lie you mean?
Peter the Great is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 08:39
Morlock
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,087
It's the Tory way.
Morlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 09:18
Doctor_Wibble
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,892
Exclusivity clauses enable the Tories to sanction more Universal Credit claimants unless they take on X amount of zero hours contracts. It has not been implemented to support workers but to support the sanction regime. You have to read between the lines with the Tories.
On the other hand one can easily read it as the 'encouragement if the gig economy' that some like to talk about which in turn sounds an awful lot like Gordon Brown's 'agile workforce' dream where everybody moves about as and when the work is available, which in turn sounds an awful lot like Tebbitts 'on yer bike' stuff... or we can take it as some bizarre roundabout way of farting about with the benefits system because that's what the evil tories always do.

Exclusivity clauses in zero-hours contracts are inherently wrong if there's no liveable retainer being paid, and if it's for minimum-wage stuff then the legislation was long overdue and one wonders how it was that the situation was allowed to persist for such a long time.
Doctor_Wibble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 09:22
alan29
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 20,481
The public will just have to accept what ever kind of Brexit the EU grants us.
alan29 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 09:24
LostFool
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 59,682
On the other hand one can easily read it as th

Exclusivity clauses in zero-hours contracts are inherently wrong if there's no liveable retainer being paid, and if it's for minimum-wage stuff then the legislation was long overdue and one wonders how it was that the situation was allowed to persist for such a long time.
I fully supported then ban on exclusivity clauses but Zero Hour contracts have their place in the economy. Casual labour with no fixed hours has existed forever, it's just that they were formally called ZHCs in recent years.

There was also nothing wrong with Tebbit's "On your bike". If you were unfortunate to be born in an area with few jobs or opportunities then it seems common sense to move rather than sitting around moaning about it. I did it when I left a small village in the North East 25 years ago and millions of others have been doing it for generations.
LostFool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 10:16
Doctor_Wibble
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,892
... Casual labour with no fixed hours has existed forever, it's just that they were formally called ZHCs in recent years.
Indeed, when the term got popular I had wondered what this new sinister-sounding thing was, only to be disappointed when realising what the fuss was about, and the assumption that an actual contract was only needed because some regulation required it or something.

... I did it when I left a small village in the North East 25 years ago and millions of others have been doing it for generations.
I've moved around for work too - perhaps another study in workforce mobility is needed, one wonders how much could be fixed simply by the existence of a decently regular 'bus to the next town' service.

And apparently we now need tents to go with our bikes!
Doctor_Wibble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 10:41
howard h
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gtr Manchester UK
Posts: 7,918
The public will just have to accept what ever kind of Brexit the EU grants us.
The irony. The public want to be free of the "tyranny" (their words, not mine!) of the EU yet the most important thing of all, the deal we get, is what they grant to us!
howard h is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 10:54
Doctor_Wibble
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,892
The irony. The public want to be free of the "tyranny" (their words, not mine!) of the EU yet the most important thing of all, the deal we get, is what they grant to us!
Or one might see this as proof that we were not in a true partnership? Or file it as 'an expected cost'? Or as 'price worth paying'? Or even 'deficiently worded treaty exit clause'? It's all spin anyway, whether it's tyranny or utopia or 'for all its faults'...
Doctor_Wibble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 11:32
Kiteview
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,812
To point out the obvious, during the referendum campaign it was repeatedly pointed out that we could end up significantly worse off if we opted to leave the EU. Despite this the pro-Leave portion of the population basically agreed to give the pro-Leave politicians a free hand to damage their standard of living. As such, it is a bit late for them to complain that they won't accept a Brexit that leaves them worse off, when they voted for it.

This is akin to ignoring all financial advice and giving someone a blank cheque and then getting upset at the amount the person fills in on the cheque.
Kiteview is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply




 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 20:06.