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Viewing distances.


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Old 11-12-2016, 11:59
howardl
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I'm starting...only just, starting toying with the idea of getting a 4K HDR,
I have a 50" in mind, but, when I look on the viewing distances it says that, for a 84-inch screen, 4k resolution isn’t fully apparent until you are at least 5.5 feet or closer to the screen it says ,
To me that is ridiculous, so a 50" i have to sit closer?????...ludicrous,
Is getting 4k beneficial to most people? as I wonder what the average distance people sit.
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Old 11-12-2016, 12:12
Nigel Goodwin
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To me that is ridiculous, so a 50" i have to sit closer?????...ludicrous,
Not 'ridiculous' - simple physics.

If you want to see fine detail (which is what HD is, and 4K even more so) then you obviously have to sit much closer.

Even for normal HD you probably need to view from as close as the screen size away, to get full benefit from the resolution (depending on how crippled the transmission is), and very few people view that close.

Back when the BBC crippled their HD quality over night, numerous people on here (who should have known better) claimed that nothing had changed - discussions about it proved that all of them were viewing from so far away they couldn't even tell if it was HD or SD.

There seems little point in 4K, even the stunning shop 4K demos look just as good on HD sets at anything remotely approaching sensible viewing distances.
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Old 11-12-2016, 12:15
derek500
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Have you got HD now? What size screen, how far do you sit from it and how big is the difference between say BBC One and BBC One HD?
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Old 11-12-2016, 12:18
misar
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Not 'ridiculous' - simple physics.

There seems little point in 4K, even the stunning shop 4K demos look just as good on HD sets at anything remotely approaching sensible viewing distances.
Totally agree but someone will be along shortly to tell us its not the resolution stupid, its the dynamic range.
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Old 11-12-2016, 12:19
howardl
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At the moment 40"HD and sit about 10ft away, I can't see too much difference
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Old 11-12-2016, 12:41
derek500
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At the moment 40"HD and sit about 10ft away, I can't see too much difference
Don't bother getting 4K then.

The difference between HD and SD is like night and day to my eyes. Even in my kitchen where I sit about 6 feet from a 21", it's instantly noticeable.

I sit about 7 feet from my 55" UHD (pre HDR) and 4K is noticeable, but the gap is not as great as SD to HD.

It's when you go back to watching HD after an hour of 4K that you realise the difference more.

Supposedly HDR is better, but I'm holding out to buy a 2016 set until the 2017 ones are launched and the prices drop.
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Old 11-12-2016, 12:55
Stig
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Personally, I find it's HDR that makes more of a difference than 4K.
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Old 11-12-2016, 13:16
howardl
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Starting to go off the idea, may get a 50" or even 55" HD next year....4k will be a waste of money.
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Old 11-12-2016, 13:20
Nigel Goodwin
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Totally agree but someone will be along shortly to tell us its not the resolution stupid, its the dynamic range.
Which is totally ludicrous

But HDR seems the latest 'bandwagon' to jump on
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Old 11-12-2016, 13:21
Nigel Goodwin
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At the moment 40"HD and sit about 10ft away, I can't see too much difference
Because you're viewing from too far away, so can't see the HD detail.
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Old 11-12-2016, 13:38
technologist
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On average a person can resolve one minute or arc
So if the pixel subtends less than this at the viewing distance, it is not able t be seen as a pixel.
For a uhd 1 screen this means 1.5 times picture height .
What people actually do see this BBC r&d
http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publications/whitepaper287

HDR WCG HFR and immersive audio are all noticeable at any distance from the screen
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Old 11-12-2016, 15:27
howardl
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Because you're viewing from too far away, so can't see the HD detail.
Yes, that's why i'm off the idea of 4k....a 50-55"HD next year for me
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Old 11-12-2016, 15:35
Lidtop2013
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Im going to throw a curve ball here, but we have a 49'' 4K LG tv and sit around 7-8feet away from it and i can easily see the difference between HD and 4K from that distance, the quality is just much better, not sure why people are saying you wont tell the difference unless your ontop of the tv? maybe you people have Argos branded 4K tvs?

If you get a 55'' 4K you'll certainly see the difference between the two, even at 10 feet.
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Old 11-12-2016, 16:02
d'@ve
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Im going to throw a curve ball here, but we have a 49'' 4K LG tv and sit around 7-8feet away from it and i can easily see the difference between HD and 4K from that distance, the quality is just much better, not sure why people are saying you wont tell the difference unless your ontop of the tv? maybe you people have Argos branded 4K tvs?

If you get a 55'' 4K you'll certainly see the difference between the two, even at 10 feet.
I'll throw in another and curve it some more.

I can see the improvement of a UHD broadcast over an HD broadcast of the same event (live PL football) even on my 1024x768 HD Ready plasma TV. Heck, I don't even mind if I go close enough to see the individual plasma pixels. The reason is, of course, that the UHD broadcast uses a much higher bit rate and a better compression scheme so when downscaled in the UHD box, it looks closer to uncompressed video than an HD broadcast. If anyone's ever seen uncompressed video, they will know what I mean (it's stunning).

With a full HD plasma, the improvement would of course remain, and you might not see the dots (depending on viewing distance). We are finally starting to get high bitrate HD, via the backdoor - but it does indicate that 4K TVs are not needed at all, for most people. Upgraded HD TVs would have been just as good as 4K sets for most people at typical viewing distances, if the broadcast is UHD. But... will such sets ever be available? That is the question.
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Old 11-12-2016, 17:04
koantemplation
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IMO HDR is a bigger improvement than 4K is, especially compared to 1080p.

You can see the improvement HDR makes no matter what the distance. (although obviously not too far away).

I'd prefer a 1080p HDR film to just a 4K film.
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Old 11-12-2016, 19:52
howardl
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IMO HDR is a bigger improvement than 4K is, especially compared to 1080p.

You can see the improvement HDR makes no matter what the distance. (although obviously not too far away).

I'd prefer a 1080p HDR film to just a 4K film.
What distance is your viewing??? and what size Tv
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Old 11-12-2016, 20:10
koantemplation
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What distance is your viewing??? and what size Tv
I'm watching a 4k HDR 55in TV from 8ft (yes I know 2ft too far).

But I've seen it close up playing the 4K HDR demos and love the clarity.
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Old 11-12-2016, 20:12
SkipTracer
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UHD TV must have accessory.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bresser-Sca.../dp/B00140J31M

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Old 11-12-2016, 20:21
howardl
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I'm watching a 4k HDR 55in TV from 8ft (yes I know 2ft too far).

But I've seen it close up playing the 4K HDR demos and love the clarity.
I dare say its lovely... but most wont watch tv at 6ft distance.
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Old 11-12-2016, 20:46
koantemplation
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I dare say its lovely... but most wont watch tv at 6ft distance.
Yes I know which is why I want to go up to a 65in TV when I can afford it.
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Old 12-12-2016, 15:56
d'@ve
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Yes I know which is why I want to go up to a 65in TV when I can afford it.
Seems like a lot of expense for a one foot viewing distance 'improvement' though.
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Old 20-12-2016, 21:48
rob1973
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What you must remember is that many of the regulars in here sell home entertainment equipment for a living, therefore any advice is tainted no matter how they spin it.
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Old 21-12-2016, 10:27
anthony david
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In normal family homes viewing distances are set by room and furniture layout, around 3m therefore has been common since the small screen 405 days. Screen sizes are also a matter of personal taste, many people detest very large ones. Surround sound is usually vetoed by wives, I got away with it by using a system with very small speakers. Any immersive audio system that requires several more speakers, especially if they have to be fitted in the ceiling has zero chance of being adopted by all but a tiny number of enthusiasts. I would be surprised if the average member of the public got excited by HDR or HFR, it's hardly in the same league as the coming of colour is it.
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Old 21-12-2016, 13:55
skinj
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What you must remember is that many of the regulars in here sell home entertainment equipment for a living, therefore any advice is tainted no matter how they spin it.
I'd argue that on here, where we are not trying to sell anything*, we are able to provide real life experiences that we have gained through talking to hundreds of customers and installer hundreds of TV's in people homes.
If we were all talking with tainted opinions the view points would all be "you must have 4k regardless of viewing distance, it's amazing 7 beyond anything you've ever seen before and it will change your life for ever", whereas what you tend to see is us explaining there is little point if the viewing distance is too great, or if the person watching is never going to watch a HD station let alone a 4K stream.



*In fact from reading over the years I'd say that most of the people in the trade here are not "sales people" in the sell-sell-sell sense, but much more in the decision assistant category. The thrive from helping make the best decision for the customer & not the sales persons pocket! I don't honestly think the typical "sales person" is going to come on here at all. What would they gain from it? maybe to odd question to help up-sell to someone but that would be about it.
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Old 23-12-2016, 15:07
rob1973
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I'd argue that on here, where we are not trying to sell anything*, we are able to provide real life experiences that we have gained through talking to hundreds of customers and installer hundreds of TV's in people homes.
If we were all talking with tainted opinions the view points would all be "you must have 4k regardless of viewing distance, it's amazing 7 beyond anything you've ever seen before and it will change your life for ever", whereas what you tend to see is us explaining there is little point if the viewing distance is too great, or if the person watching is never going to watch a HD station let alone a 4K stream.



*In fact from reading over the years I'd say that most of the people in the trade here are not "sales people" in the sell-sell-sell sense, but much more in the decision assistant category. The thrive from helping make the best decision for the customer & not the sales persons pocket! I don't honestly think the typical "sales person" is going to come on here at all. What would they gain from it? maybe to odd question to help up-sell to someone but that would be about it.

And there we have proof! Too defensive, your reply should have just said, "Viewing distances matter so shut up Mr73!".

I've asked questions on here about obscure bit's of stuff (mainly from china) and been accused of starting threads to help with my eBay sales when in fact they were just punts I'd taken on things and I was asking 'experts' on the validity of said punt.

I love reading this section of the forums.
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