Nope, it's still not hypocritical for people like that to celebrate what is a secular festival. Maybe if such folk went along to a carol service you might have something approaching a point, but I somehow doubt they do, and even then I know of some atheists who go to midnight mass because it's a nice community thing to do - see friends, have a sing song and a mince pie - and not because they buy into the religious part of it in any way.

As has been pointed out, Christmas did not start with the Christians - the idea of a winter festival complete with gifts etc was around long before it was hi-jacked into representing the birth of Christ. If someone grows up observing a secular christmas, completely ignoring any aspect of religion then they are merely observing a holiday in one entirely valid - and the most prevalent - way.

SImply, Christmas for many is not a religious festival, so it is not hypocritical to observe it and be one of your atheist bogeymen at the same time.

Good post. Just about covers everything I would want to say about it.

I think it is possible to have the best of all worlds and not be hypocritical about it. Where Christmas is concerned, you can have your cake and eat it. You can be irreligious and yet, still allow the Christian message to enter your life. You can allow the pagan elements to prevail in your celebration, yet still recognise the Christian symbolism.

All you need to do is call it "Humanitarianism".

I very much enjoy listening to the Salvation Army Band in the city centre when we are in Truro doing our Christmas shopping. I don't believe in God, but I appreciate that they do very good work on behalf of the homeless and needy. I'm happy to donate to them. They also play some beautiful carols and add to an essential element to the season that would be sorely missed without them. That they do such good work is, to them, an act of faith. To me it is an act of human decency. The end is the same even if the understanding of it's motivation differs.

I remember going to late night mass with my family when I was being brought up as a Roman Catholic as a young girl. These were lovely occasions, full of warmth and community spirit. I don't attend any more, but I'm glad I had them in my young life and can recall them with fondness.

When the BBC broadcast Carols From Kings on Christmas Eve, it will be on our TV. Not because we believe in the story of the Nativity, but because we put it on every year. It's a lovely way to actually start the festivities and in any case, "Once In Royal Davids City" was a favourite Carol of mine as a child. I still love to hear it.

Fastzombie has defended his faith on this thread with vigour and tenacity and I admire him for that. I disagree with a lot he has to say, but he is firm in his conviction and I respect somebody who does that. I'd be happy to share a mince pie with him and wish him a Merry Christmas. I'm sure he'd do the same for me.

The point is.... that there is no reason for anybody to have discord at Christmas. The festival is big enough to accommodate us all and it is probably the only time we really can have our cake (or even turkey) and eat it.

The original premise of this thread..... to debunk the notion that there is some sort of "War On Christmas"....... has pretty much been established.

I think the vast majority of posters here are aware that the phenomenon is the product of a malign press attempting to sow hatred towards Muslims to the more gullible sections of society. That it largely fails to do so indicates that not all of us are as stupid as the press may think and are prepared to say so.

We (my family and I, that is) enjoy Christmas. We love it. Our house is ready for the holiday and we intend to make it a happy occasion.

I am not a religious woman, but I do consider myself a humanitarian. The values of both are pretty much the same, it's just a different reason for trying to be a decent person.

All I will say is: A Merry Christmas to one and all (Blimey, I sound like Tiny Tim..!!). Enjoy the festivities without let or hindrance and be of goodwill to all, regardless of what they may believe, or how they celebrate.

Live and let live.

Two weeks off, a good p**s up, turkey dinner and presents.

It's not a secular festival. You've just tinkered with it to suit tastes and declared it such. Now who's hi-jacking it. It wasn't secular pre Christian either or are atheists more on boeard with panpsychism and nature dieties these days?

Once more, if your the atheist bogey man who makes it his business to attack and deride and demean religious observence and belief and followers then get off the ride.

This whole we make it secular argument is weak when held to the same standards as prayers at assembly and sunday school. because if they're abusive by brainwashing impressionable minds so are xmas carols, a saint who delivers presents, and a decorated tree representing the spirit of nature taken into the home and venerated. The ideas and concepts of which manage to filter through even a secular celebration of it.

After all if you can manage to overlook these aspects during the festival why can't an individual overlook them during morning prayers, sunday school etc.

That you happen to like all that, makes it no more valid an argument than some people happen to like the nativity and the idea of a son of God coming to earth to help mankind.

If your happy to celebrate what you like and allow others the same then good luck Merry Xmas etc.

If you spend the rest of the year complaining about religious this and that, bollocks to you, you hypocrit.

Thank you very much. I don't think anyones ever described me as doing anything vigorously but still many thanks and a Happy, joyful Xmas and New Year to you.

None of which have anything to do with religious thought or influence!

However if the Christian Puritans of Oliver Cromwell's era had of had their way we wouldn't celebrate Christmas at all, so the fact it has survived at all is probably more to do with the "good p**s up" aspect rather than anything to do with religion.

The turkey dinner is much more recent anyway, traditionally it used to be goose, but even so the "good p**s up" and turkey dinner are very much to do with the tradition of the winter festival feasting and nothing to do with Christianity.

Do you celebrate Christmas at all fz?

I have to admit I'm not the biggest fan.

More to do with personal history than anything else. I make the best of it though.

I like the sentiment behind it.

And to you too dear Richard. May your tribes thrive.

Because we never marked holy days - Christian or Pagan - with any kind of feasting or celebration Right.

I'm sorry, but it really is a secular festival, particually in the UK - maybe less so in other parts of the world. Maybe that's for the worst given the consumerist nightmare it has become, but that is neither here nor there.

I just get the impression that you think all atheists are miserable b*stards who spend their lives complaining about all and everything, so the idea that they/we might join in with a winter festival and have a bit of fun regardless of belief is counter to that impression.

So go do it some other time. If the idea of religion is so abhorent why align yourself so closely with a Christian festival.

Well thank you fz. I too make the best of it in my way by celebrating Christmas or perhaps celebrating at Christmas would be more accurate. Personal history - well we have a large family and circle of friends some religious some not some atheist they all celebrate and wish each other Christmas/Seasonal joy etc. I am not about to sour that tradition by ignoring the whole thing. Besides it is fun.

Thing is I really don't see that the fact that I campaign against compulsory worship etc as well makes me any kind of hypocrite. Just a realist with I hope some respect for others beliefs.

On the contrary I like the fact atheists can put aside their opinions and celebrate in the spirit of the event. I also like the idea that atheists can accept and recognise the spiritual aspects within society and see it as an option offerred even if it's not for them.

I have a friend who's Plymouth Brethren, as fundie as they get. They don't celebrate Christmas - as such - but they do have a big family gathering over the period, just without saying it's a celebration of Christmas..
So paradoxically, they have a strictly secular Christmas themselves...!

Where, precisely, have I said I find the idea of religion "abhorrent" or "aligned" myself with anything?

As far as I am concerned people are free to believe whatever they wish, whether that is no belief, a belief in "God", or some other deity, it really doesn't bother me. Each to their own.

However with that there should be truth, and the simple fact is that the traditions we follow to celebrate and associate what has universally become known as Christmas have little, if anything, to do with Christianity and, because of that, it is perfectly reasonable for people of differing beliefs, including secular, to also celebrate at this time of year.

So you want these "extreme" atheists (assuming they exist!) to be even more extreme by refusing to observe a national holiday just because it coincides with a Christian celebration? I really think you're carrying this a bit far.

It was a general comment not directed at you as such. I dont know how many times I have to repeat it that those who choose to celebrate in secular fashion are as entitled to do so as anyone else. I'm talking about the secular version of religious extremists. Extremists tend to be the biggest hypocrits IMO. It's interesting that we all seem good with religious hypocrits but some struggle to accept the idea it's applicable to atheists.

I don't want them to do anything. I just would have a lot more respect for their convictions if they did. It's only carrying things to far in comparison to the other things they choose to dissaprove of and want to see stopped.

Coincidentally I got into it with a Christian woman today who thinks no non Christians should celebrate Xmas. I said that was unreasonable and unfair. Lest you think I attack atheism wholesale and defend religion blindly.

Well you do have respect and that's what makes the difference IMO. We may disagree on that subject but as you put forward your arguments in a respectful manner that makes all the difference.

If you were activelly campaigning for the option of worship to be removed and replaced by compulsory non worship, that would be the time to put away the tinsel.

Well fz if you could find someone who wants non-worship made compulsory then their attitude to public holidays would seem to be the least of the objections that could be made against them.

Objections I would heartily support BTW. I believe in freedom of worship (or not worship) which is precisely why I will always object to any form of imposed worship. As you are clearly someone who believes in free choice in religious matters I still hope to obtain your support in opposing compulsory worship.
Indeed I hope for the support of any one who believes in religious freedom.

The thing is I don't see the odd prayer or hymn at assembly as compulsory worship. Unless we're going to get into strict dictionary definitions, in which case my arguments stand about Xmas.

Remember I come from an environment where these things were pretty standard and part and parcel of education. In real terms they were not amounting to anything like indoctrination or abuse any more than dress code or expected standards of behaviour were, ie, a pain in the arse for surly teenagers, but a salutory lesson that you don't get to have everything based around your every whim and want.

I understand your concern to an extent though, and again unlike your arguments which extend to preserving some kind of respect and freedom of choice, some anti theists hold religion in such low contempt, and their own position as superior, they simply can't be trusted to have a balanced view.