[quote=Richard46;84922121]What message? From Who?[/QU
Jesus.
Jesus.
The 'war on Christmas' myths
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Originally Posted by fastzombie:
“Besides the point and debatable IMO.
Once again Xmas is a Christian festival derived from Christian beliefs and concepts, the nativity plays at school, Saint Nicholas, the Magi, Angels, religious carols and services etc all pervade the festival, speak to it's spiritual message and celebrate the day Christ was suppposedly born. This is an intrinsic part of the festival, not outlying antiquated traditions, or nowhere near as antiquated as some would like it to be.
Most festivals have an element of stuffing your face, taking time off and watching crap TV. It doesn't take anything away from the underlying message IMO. That is the birth of a man who had a radical message about equality, treating each other as you would be treated, and how you treat the lowest among you is how you treat God, because fundamentally everyone is equal. That message caught on in a big way and our more enlightened society of today derives a lot from that so credit where it's due.
If it's a slippery slope from a prayer at morning assembly or a few Bishops in the house of Lords to theocratic oppression, as some would have us believe, and if religious thought is such a malign inflence then fine put your money where your mouth is and lay off the celebrating. Noddy Holder belting out 'It's Christmasssss' is not the secular answer.”
“Besides the point and debatable IMO.
Once again Xmas is a Christian festival derived from Christian beliefs and concepts, the nativity plays at school, Saint Nicholas, the Magi, Angels, religious carols and services etc all pervade the festival, speak to it's spiritual message and celebrate the day Christ was suppposedly born. This is an intrinsic part of the festival, not outlying antiquated traditions, or nowhere near as antiquated as some would like it to be.
Most festivals have an element of stuffing your face, taking time off and watching crap TV. It doesn't take anything away from the underlying message IMO. That is the birth of a man who had a radical message about equality, treating each other as you would be treated, and how you treat the lowest among you is how you treat God, because fundamentally everyone is equal. That message caught on in a big way and our more enlightened society of today derives a lot from that so credit where it's due.
If it's a slippery slope from a prayer at morning assembly or a few Bishops in the house of Lords to theocratic oppression, as some would have us believe, and if religious thought is such a malign inflence then fine put your money where your mouth is and lay off the celebrating. Noddy Holder belting out 'It's Christmasssss' is not the secular answer.”
It's a festival the early Christians nicked from the pagans as a publicity stunt. Nothing more, so it is hypocritical to moan about people observing it as they see fit, and it's not debatable that most people in the UK in 2016 view Christmas as being more about santa than Jesus. Literally the only connection left is the name for the majority of folk.
Just look at church attendence and look at how many more people go and watch the Coca-Cola trucks go past. It's a time for people to come together, eat too much, spend too much money and get a bit pissed. Religion doesn't come into it and yes, even your so-called "militant" atheists get to do so AND get to bemoan the negative influences of religion too - because for such people Christmas is nothing to do with religion. Just like atheists who eat easter eggs at easter.
Originally Posted by fastzombie:
“
Jesus.”
“
Jesus.”
Fair enough.
He had some good messages I would not take his word as gospel though.
Originally Posted by KidMoe:
“It's a festival the early Christians nicked from the pagans as a publicity stunt. Nothing more, so it is hypocritical to moan about people observing it as they see fit, and it's not debatable that most people in the UK in 2016 view Christmas as being more about santa than Jesus. Literally the only connection left is the name for the majority of folk.”
“It's a festival the early Christians nicked from the pagans as a publicity stunt. Nothing more, so it is hypocritical to moan about people observing it as they see fit, and it's not debatable that most people in the UK in 2016 view Christmas as being more about santa than Jesus. Literally the only connection left is the name for the majority of folk.”
It's a festival that the early christians incorporated into their calendar to make the transition easier so ex pagans had some kind of continuity. It was not the big bully boy knicking the ball off the smaller kid and I think it's highly debatable if you asked a cross section of British people that they'd mostly say Xmas is all about Santa. Don't confuse it being more secular with it being atheist.
Quote:
“Just look at church attendence and look at how many more people go and watch the Coca-Cola trucks go past. It's a time for people to come together, eat too much, spend too much money and get a bit pissed. Religion doesn't come into it and yes, even your so-called "militant" atheists get to do so AND get to bemoan the negative influences of religion too - because for such people Christmas is nothing to do with religion. Just like atheists who eat easter eggs at easter.”
“Just look at church attendence and look at how many more people go and watch the Coca-Cola trucks go past. It's a time for people to come together, eat too much, spend too much money and get a bit pissed. Religion doesn't come into it and yes, even your so-called "militant" atheists get to do so AND get to bemoan the negative influences of religion too - because for such people Christmas is nothing to do with religion. Just like atheists who eat easter eggs at easter.”
So do the people who equate Xmas with a religion also get to bemoan what a commercialised, capitalist parody the secular version of Xmas is then.
As long as they're the kind of atheists who are happy to let others have their beliefs and not sniffing around like witch finder generals trying to locate and eradicate any type of religious/spiritual reference and bad mouthing, demeaning and sanctimonious about it then long may they continue to do so. But if they are, they're bloody hypocrites picking up and dropping their deeply held convictions as and when it suits.
See I and others also get to say that about militant atheist behaviour to. The guy who doesn't see why he should celebrate the fact that a woman couldn't keep her legs together, if he holds it all in such contempt, is a hypocrite by celebrating it at all. Have Cake eat it anti theism.
So I'm not making some blanket generalisation about how people observe it and moaning about it. I'm calling some people hypocritical.
Originally Posted by Richard46:
“Fair enough.
He had some good messages I would not take his word as gospel though.”
“Fair enough.
He had some good messages I would not take his word as gospel though.
”
If the message is good, that's all you need.
i find them particularly hilarious when i go to nativity plays and when the children are all exchanging presents and cards and the parents are swapping seasonal greetings.
in fact i`ve never been to one where the muslim parents and children are absent or not joining in.
in fact i`ve never been to one where the muslim parents and children are absent or not joining in.
Originally Posted by Pitman:
“chavs are children, reclaim the word
”
“chavs are children, reclaim the word
”
Around here "chav" can be used to mean the same as "mate".
plymouth brethren don`t do christmas, i think there`s a fair few branches of christianity that don`t.
Originally Posted by fastzombie:
“If the message is good, that's all you need.”
“If the message is good, that's all you need.”
Precisely what I have been saying over on the other thread
Originally Posted by Richard46:
“I suspect most would support option 2 to some extent or other. I was wondering which option SULLA thought they would support.
To be honest I don't think it matters a great deal. The value of what Christ is recorded as teaching stands or falls by its merits not by proof of his existence IMO.”
“I suspect most would support option 2 to some extent or other. I was wondering which option SULLA thought they would support.
To be honest I don't think it matters a great deal. The value of what Christ is recorded as teaching stands or falls by its merits not by proof of his existence IMO.”
I may sue for plagiarism
Originally Posted by annette kurten:
“plymouth brethren don`t do christmas, i think there`s a fair few branches of christianity that don`t.”
“plymouth brethren don`t do christmas, i think there`s a fair few branches of christianity that don`t.”
Ironically, a lot of the christians stealing Xmas from the pagans ideas was perpetuated by puritan and protestant anti catholicism. being determined to paint catholics as demi pagan interlopers not true Christians.
The religious observance of Christmas and the folk tradition of a midwinter feast co existed for centuries, and for much of that time the religious observance amounted to no more special a holy day than any other. Easter being the important one.
Originally Posted by fastzombie:
“So do the people who equate Xmas with a religion also get to bemoan what a commercialised, capitalist parody the secular version of Xmas is then.”
“So do the people who equate Xmas with a religion also get to bemoan what a commercialised, capitalist parody the secular version of Xmas is then.
”
They can if they want!
Quote:
“As long as they're the kind of atheists who are happy to let others have their beliefs and not sniffing around like witch finder generals trying to locate and eradicate any type of religious/spiritual reference and bad mouthing, demeaning and sanctimonious about it then long may they continue to do so. But if they are, they're bloody hypocrites picking up and dropping their deeply held convictions as and when it suits.”
“As long as they're the kind of atheists who are happy to let others have their beliefs and not sniffing around like witch finder generals trying to locate and eradicate any type of religious/spiritual reference and bad mouthing, demeaning and sanctimonious about it then long may they continue to do so. But if they are, they're bloody hypocrites picking up and dropping their deeply held convictions as and when it suits.”
I don't get where the hypocrisy comes in. What convictions are they dropping if they enjoy Xmas as a secular festival? None at all that I can see.
Originally Posted by jjwales:
“
I don't get where the hypocrisy comes in. What convictions are they dropping if they enjoy Xmas as a secular festival? None at all that I can see.”
“
I don't get where the hypocrisy comes in. What convictions are they dropping if they enjoy Xmas as a secular festival? None at all that I can see.”
The conviction that gets them all bent out of shape about someone saying I will pray for you, morning assembly prayers and various other trivial religious aspects in society. The conviction that any religious influence is pernicious, abusive and damaging, and the slippery slope to a world of superstition and theocracies burning heretics at the stake.
Perhaps if they could take a leaf out of their own book of happily ignoring the bits they don't like in the Christian based festival of Christmas, which celebrates the birth of the son of God, and applied that to the many other things they get overwrought and uber sensitive about I'd be less incined to think them hypocrits.
Originally Posted by fastzombie:
“The conviction that gets them all bent out of shape about someone saying I will pray for you, morning assembly prayers and various other trivial religious aspects in society. The conviction that any religious influence is pernicious, abusive and damaging, and the slippery slope to a world of superstition and theocracies burning heretics at the stake.
Perhaps if they could take a leaf out of their own book of happily ignoring the bits they don't like in the Christian based festival of Christmas, which celebrates the birth of the son of God, and applied that to the many other things they get overwrought and uber sensitive about I'd be less incined to think them hypocrits.”
“The conviction that gets them all bent out of shape about someone saying I will pray for you, morning assembly prayers and various other trivial religious aspects in society. The conviction that any religious influence is pernicious, abusive and damaging, and the slippery slope to a world of superstition and theocracies burning heretics at the stake.
Perhaps if they could take a leaf out of their own book of happily ignoring the bits they don't like in the Christian based festival of Christmas, which celebrates the birth of the son of God, and applied that to the many other things they get overwrought and uber sensitive about I'd be less incined to think them hypocrits.”
Sorry, but you are not making any kind of case for this supposed "hypocrisy" of such people, even assuming they exist in the first place.
Originally Posted by fastzombie:
“The conviction that gets them all bent out of shape about someone saying I will pray for you, morning assembly prayers and various other trivial religious aspects in society. The conviction that any religious influence is pernicious, abusive and damaging, and the slippery slope to a world of superstition and theocracies burning heretics at the stake.
Perhaps if they could take a leaf out of their own book of happily ignoring the bits they don't like in the Christian based festival of Christmas, which celebrates the birth of the son of God, and applied that to the many other things they get overwrought and uber sensitive about I'd be less incined to think them hypocrits.”
“The conviction that gets them all bent out of shape about someone saying I will pray for you, morning assembly prayers and various other trivial religious aspects in society. The conviction that any religious influence is pernicious, abusive and damaging, and the slippery slope to a world of superstition and theocracies burning heretics at the stake.
Perhaps if they could take a leaf out of their own book of happily ignoring the bits they don't like in the Christian based festival of Christmas, which celebrates the birth of the son of God, and applied that to the many other things they get overwrought and uber sensitive about I'd be less incined to think them hypocrits.”
Interestingly enough a lot of good religious (Christian and others) people agree that prayers should never be compulsory.
BTW how’s about less of the sweeping generalisations and exaggerations they do begin to sound a little overwrought and uber sensitive themselves. Still your call.
Originally Posted by Richard46:
“Interestingly enough a lot of good religious (Christian and others) people agree that prayers should never be compulsory.
BTW how’s about less of the sweeping generalisations and exaggerations they do begin to sound a little overwrought and uber sensitive themselves. Still your call.”
“Interestingly enough a lot of good religious (Christian and others) people agree that prayers should never be compulsory.
BTW how’s about less of the sweeping generalisations and exaggerations they do begin to sound a little overwrought and uber sensitive themselves. Still your call.”
Sorry if I appear to be banging on about a theme.
But I'm trying to specify who I'm criticising as most FM's seem to think I'm saying no non Christians should be allowed to celebrate Xmas.
As it is, I'm not saying anyone should not celebrate, just saying I find some peoples attitude around it hypocritical. Is that criticism only to be levelled at Christians now, because it seems to be a sticking point.
As for compusory prayer, again maybe take a leaf from the atheist handbook of secular Xmas and mouth the words to Merry Xmas Everybody.
Originally Posted by jjwales:
“Sorry, but you are not making any kind of case for this supposed "hypocrisy" of such people, even assuming they exist in the first place.”
“Sorry, but you are not making any kind of case for this supposed "hypocrisy" of such people, even assuming they exist in the first place.”
Perhaps you may have a sticking point about atheists being hypocritical.
Learn to be less defensive maybe. I fully accept religious people can and are hypocritical in many ways. They are human after all.
I've noticed someone has already drawn parrallells between this thread and the atrocity in Berlin. Is it fair and reasonable to make some equation between the two?
Originally Posted by fastzombie:
“Perhaps you may have a sticking point about atheists being hypocritical.”
“Perhaps you may have a sticking point about atheists being hypocritical.”
Of course they can be hypocritical - anyone can be. But you still haven't explained in what way these apparently "extreme" atheists are being hypocritical, just because they enjoy a secular Christmas holiday.
Quote:
“Learn to be less defensive maybe. I fully accept religious people can and are hypocritical in many ways. They are human after all.”
“Learn to be less defensive maybe. I fully accept religious people can and are hypocritical in many ways. They are human after all.”
I'm not being defensive - I'm just trying to figure out where you think the hypocrisy is. Just out of theoretical interest really, as I'm not at all sure that such people actually exist in the extreme way you describe!
Quote:
“I've noticed someone has already drawn parrallells between this thread and the atrocity in Berlin. Is it fair and reasonable to make some equation between the two?”
“I've noticed someone has already drawn parrallells between this thread and the atrocity in Berlin. Is it fair and reasonable to make some equation between the two?”
No, of course it's not. Berlin wasn't a "war on Christmas", it was a small part of a war against the liberal West generally.
Originally Posted by fastzombie:
“The conviction that gets them all bent out of shape about someone saying I will pray for you, morning assembly prayers and various other trivial religious aspects in society. The conviction that any religious influence is pernicious, abusive and damaging, and the slippery slope to a world of superstition and theocracies burning heretics at the stake.
Perhaps if they could take a leaf out of their own book of happily ignoring the bits they don't like in the Christian based festival of Christmas, which celebrates the birth of the son of God, and applied that to the many other things they get overwrought and uber sensitive about I'd be less incined to think them hypocrits.”
“The conviction that gets them all bent out of shape about someone saying I will pray for you, morning assembly prayers and various other trivial religious aspects in society. The conviction that any religious influence is pernicious, abusive and damaging, and the slippery slope to a world of superstition and theocracies burning heretics at the stake.
Perhaps if they could take a leaf out of their own book of happily ignoring the bits they don't like in the Christian based festival of Christmas, which celebrates the birth of the son of God, and applied that to the many other things they get overwrought and uber sensitive about I'd be less incined to think them hypocrits.”
The problem is that the way the "Christian based festival of Christmas" is celebrated is almost entirely pagan. Almost everything.
The fact there is a celebration at all, the giving of presents, decorating the tree, holly and ivy, mistletoe, the yule log, they are all North European pagan in origin and comfortably pre-date the origins of Christianity.
Therefore it is entirely consistent for everyone to celebrate the mid-winter festival as they wish and it isn't hypocritical for non-Christians to do so. It certainly isn't for Christians to claim sole "ownership" of the festival although they have tried to for the last 1500 years or so.
Originally Posted by fastzombie:
“Sorry if I appear to be banging on about a theme.
But I'm trying to specify who I'm criticising as most FM's seem to think I'm saying no non Christians should be allowed to celebrate Xmas.
As it is, I'm not saying anyone should not celebrate, just saying I find some peoples attitude around it hypocritical. Is that criticism only to be levelled at Christians now, because it seems to be a sticking point.
As for compusory prayer, again maybe take a leaf from the atheist handbook of secular Xmas and mouth the words to Merry Xmas Everybody.”
“Sorry if I appear to be banging on about a theme.
But I'm trying to specify who I'm criticising as most FM's seem to think I'm saying no non Christians should be allowed to celebrate Xmas.
As it is, I'm not saying anyone should not celebrate, just saying I find some peoples attitude around it hypocritical. Is that criticism only to be levelled at Christians now, because it seems to be a sticking point.
As for compusory prayer, again maybe take a leaf from the atheist handbook of secular Xmas and mouth the words to Merry Xmas Everybody.
”
Merry Christmas to you too Fz ! x
'The essence of the beautiful is unity in variety' . W. Somerset Maugham.
Originally Posted by Glawster2002:
“The problem is that the way the "Christian based festival of Christmas" is celebrated is almost entirely pagan. Almost everything.
The fact there is a celebration at all, the giving of presents, decorating the tree, holly and ivy, mistletoe, the yule log, they are all North European pagan in origin and comfortably pre-date the origins of Christianity.
Therefore it is entirely consistent for everyone to celebrate the mid-winter festival as they wish and it isn't hypocritical for non-Christians to do so. It certainly isn't for Christians to claim sole "ownership" of the festival although they have tried to for the last 1500 years or so.”
“The problem is that the way the "Christian based festival of Christmas" is celebrated is almost entirely pagan. Almost everything.
The fact there is a celebration at all, the giving of presents, decorating the tree, holly and ivy, mistletoe, the yule log, they are all North European pagan in origin and comfortably pre-date the origins of Christianity.
Therefore it is entirely consistent for everyone to celebrate the mid-winter festival as they wish and it isn't hypocritical for non-Christians to do so. It certainly isn't for Christians to claim sole "ownership" of the festival although they have tried to for the last 1500 years or so.”
Regardless of it's origins, which IMO hasn't been settled as yet, the pre christian folk festivals of winter were almost certainly bound up and tied to religious observance and ritual at the time. Pagans were not atheists after all.
That customs and habits survived and filtered through to Christian times is not news and typical of the rather clever marketing ploy of overlaying Christian festivals onto older ones in order to make the transition easier. It was the protestants that began the stealing Xmas meme in a attempt to discredit the catholic church. If the stealing accusation is to stand then it's now a case of secularists doing the same. So it's nothing more or less than what happened previously. If it's good or bad enough for one lot to do.....
I'm not getting into defending something I never said in the first place. I made my position clear and it has nothing to do with stopping people from owning Christmas, or arguing sole ownership, or celebrating it how they see fit. To my mind the kind of anti theist nuttery that sees them attacking and wanting to prohibit any trace of religious thought or influence goes a little thin when there's something in it for them.
Originally Posted by jjwales:
“
I'm not being defensive - I'm just trying to figure out where you think the hypocrisy is. Just out of theoretical interest really, as I'm not at all sure that such people actually exist in the extreme way you describe!”
“
I'm not being defensive - I'm just trying to figure out where you think the hypocrisy is. Just out of theoretical interest really, as I'm not at all sure that such people actually exist in the extreme way you describe!”
I'd point out to you that on previous threads regarding religion we've had FM's in favour of reproggramming the religious, banning prayers at assembly, treating religion as a virus, and complaining their human rights were breached by the ringing of bells from the church they decided to move next door to, oh and without their religion to keep them in thrall they would all go full 28 days later Rage Zombie and never trust a Christian act of charity as they would as soon eat your face off if they didn't think they were going to heaven. All of this predicated and rounded out by the argument that religious aspects are pernicious, abusive and damaging to society.
Thankfully few atheists are as bigoted and bugg assed as that, but they do exist and they're the ones my comments are directed at. Get off your sanctimonious arses, drop the intellectual superiority and lead by example. None of this oh we just ignore the religious aspect of a festival celebrating the birth of Christ, when you conveniently can't ignore religious aspects of things that don't impact on you at all.
Originally Posted by fastzombie:
“I'm not getting into defending something I never said in the first place. I made my position clear and it has nothing to do with stopping people from owning Christmas, or arguing sole ownership, or celebrating it how they see fit. To my mind the kind of anti theist nuttery that sees them attacking and wanting to prohibit any trace of religious thought or influence goes a little thin when there's something in it for them.”
“I'm not getting into defending something I never said in the first place. I made my position clear and it has nothing to do with stopping people from owning Christmas, or arguing sole ownership, or celebrating it how they see fit. To my mind the kind of anti theist nuttery that sees them attacking and wanting to prohibit any trace of religious thought or influence goes a little thin when there's something in it for them.”
I still don't follow. How exactly do these "anti-theists" benefit from religious thought or influence at Christmas time? I doubt they are all rushing off to carol services or nativity plays for their entertainment.
Originally Posted by fastzombie:
“I'd point out to you that on previous threads regarding religion we've had FM's in favour of reproggramming the religious, banning prayers at assembly, treating religion as a virus, and complaining their human rights were breached by the ringing of bells from the church they decided to move next door to, oh and without their religion to keep them in thrall they would all go full 28 days later Rage Zombie and never trust a Christian act of charity as they would as soon eat your face off if they didn't think they were going to heaven. All of this predicated and rounded out by the argument that religious aspects are pernicious, abusive and damaging to society.
Thankfully few atheists are as bigoted and bugg assed as that, but they do exist and they're the ones my comments are directed at. Get off your sanctimonious arses, drop the intellectual superiority and lead by example. None of this oh we just ignore the religious aspect of a festival celebrating the birth of Christ, when you conveniently can't ignore religious aspects of things that don't impact on you at all.”
“I'd point out to you that on previous threads regarding religion we've had FM's in favour of reproggramming the religious, banning prayers at assembly, treating religion as a virus, and complaining their human rights were breached by the ringing of bells from the church they decided to move next door to, oh and without their religion to keep them in thrall they would all go full 28 days later Rage Zombie and never trust a Christian act of charity as they would as soon eat your face off if they didn't think they were going to heaven. All of this predicated and rounded out by the argument that religious aspects are pernicious, abusive and damaging to society.
Thankfully few atheists are as bigoted and bugg assed as that, but they do exist and they're the ones my comments are directed at. Get off your sanctimonious arses, drop the intellectual superiority and lead by example. None of this oh we just ignore the religious aspect of a festival celebrating the birth of Christ, when you conveniently can't ignore religious aspects of things that don't impact on you at all.”
Merry Christmas fz and to all of you however or whatever you celebrate.
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