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Mobile data coverage is rubbish


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Old 11-12-2016, 19:22
pfgpowell
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Britain bangs on about being a leading nation, but its mobile phone data coverage is still ratty as sh*t.

This morning I caught the train for my weekly commute from Cornwall to London instead of driving. I listen to Five Live most of the way on the net via Three and reception is pretty much continuous from North Cornwall to London.

But then the operators make sure roads are covered. Just what a difference it is when travelling by train (and btw FGW wifi service is also worse than rubbish) I found out: signal was often simply not available, and not just when we were travelling in some kind of dip as trains often to. Years earlier when I used the train I was still with O2 and that was bad. But nothing much has improved.
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Old 11-12-2016, 19:37
Mark C
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Britain bangs on about being a leading nation, but its mobile phone data coverage is still ratty as sh*t.

This morning I caught the train for my weekly commute from Cornwall to London instead of driving. I listen to Five Live most of the way on the net via Three and reception is pretty much continuous from North Cornwall to London.

But then the operators make sure roads are covered. Just what a difference it is when travelling by train (and btw FGW wifi service is also worse than rubbish) I found out: signal was often simply not available, and not just when we were travelling in some kind of dip as trains often to. Years earlier when I used the train I was still with O2 and that was bad. But nothing much has improved.
The metallised windows on modern rolling stock don't help. 20 years ago mobile FM radio reception was fine on my line into London, today it's hopeless. Phone signals
are attenuated to an even greater extent. Download some podcasts before you leave, (but well done for managing to bear Radio 5 for more than about 15 mins)
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Old 11-12-2016, 19:52
omnidirectional
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It's not so much the coverage is bad, but the train itself blocks signals. Ofcom did research into the problem and offered this explanation:

A train carriage can be considered to be like a "Faraday cage‟ which is
generally used to block radio frequency signals from getting in to (or out
of) an area. The metal skin attenuates the incoming cellular signal by
varying amounts depending on the carriage design and carrier
frequency of the signal (The higher the frequency the more attenuation
to the signal). In more modern trains the attenaution can be up to -30
dB (This means the RF signal needs to 1000 times stronger to provide
an equivalent service to users outside the train) this is because trains
are now designed to be sealed units to enhance the heating, air
conditioning and ventilation systems.

On some trains, the carriage windows, which can sometimes offer
slightly reduced attenuation, now use a metallic film designed to act as
a sun shade for passengers. This metallic film also attenuates the RF
signal thus making signal penetration much more challenging. Older
train designs with large windows and no metallic film have lower train
carriage penetration levels (around -10 dB) and this could be the
difference between making a successful call and receiving no service
whilst on-board the train.
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/asse...-not-spots.pdf
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Old 11-12-2016, 20:16
jo_m1
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Also there seems to be a complete lack of initiative towards improving train WiFi services.

In other countries such as Switzerland or Austria, the mobile operators work together with the railway services and literally erect hundreds of mast specifically to cover the tracks.

Also in Austria the railway company provides all the infrastructure needed including fiber access for railway side masts free of charge and in Switzerland all long distance trains are equipped with 4G repeaters inside the carriages.
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Old 11-12-2016, 20:29
Gigabit
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It can be done, the Virgin trains on the East Coast main line have excellent (EE) 4G for most of the journey from Kings Cross to Doncaster.
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Old 11-12-2016, 20:47
preecey
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MBNL have amazing 3G coverage between South West Wales (Carmarthen/Swansea) and London Paddington on the train.

I can't say the same with my TalkTalk Mobile (Vodafone) and O2 SIMs!
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Old 11-12-2016, 21:56
gomezz
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I listen to Five Live most of the way
You know that you can listen to Five Live on AM radio or failing that DAB radio? Or even failing that using the train's wi-fi? Or on catch up using iPlayer?
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Old 11-12-2016, 22:22
hammy_y
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Britain bangs on about being a leading nation, but its mobile phone data coverage is still ratty as sh*t.

This morning I caught the train for my weekly commute from Cornwall to London instead of driving. I listen to Five Live most of the way on the net via Three and reception is pretty much continuous from North Cornwall to London.

But then the operators make sure roads are covered. Just what a difference it is when travelling by train (and btw FGW wifi service is also worse than rubbish) I found out: signal was often simply not available, and not just when we were travelling in some kind of dip as trains often to. Years earlier when I used the train I was still with O2 and that was bad. But nothing much has improved.
It can be quite difficult because most trains block a lot of signal, and travel through quite rural areas. Also the operators aren't allowed access to Network Rail's GSM-R towers, so have to build their own. There are probably more factors, but I'm sure you can see from these one's that it's quite difficult to serve rail. I'm sure it'll improve in the future especially on networks like EE who have the ESN agreement and will, some day, release their low-frequency 800MHz band which will benefit situations like this a lot.
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Old 12-12-2016, 01:05
The Lord Lucan
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It's not so much the coverage is bad, but the train itself blocks signals. Ofcom did research into the problem and offered this explanation:



https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/asse...-not-spots.pdf
I'd just add that for Scotland for example they just finished building the first of our new electric trains, I had a look at the press photos as it progressed... foiled lined walls for heat/cold insulation. Which will see signal strength go down considerably.
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Old 12-12-2016, 07:25
moox
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I am a regular user of that line between Cornwall and London too.

It's not flawless coverage by any means, but it's not terrible either. One problem is that the line in South Devon and Cornwall is not exactly flat or straight.

Also there seems to be a complete lack of initiative towards improving train WiFi services.

In other countries such as Switzerland or Austria, the mobile operators work together with the railway services and literally erect hundreds of mast specifically to cover the tracks.

Also in Austria the railway company provides all the infrastructure needed including fiber access for railway side masts free of charge and in Switzerland all long distance trains are equipped with 4G repeaters inside the carriages.
NR is slowly working on something similar, but planning permission is a potential issue. I understand that NR's own GSM-R network benefits from skirting around the rules as it is a safety critical network, whereas a network like this would require them to go through all the same planning processes as the public networks.
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Old 12-12-2016, 07:26
Mark C
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You know that you can listen to Five Live on AM radio or failing that DAB radio? Or even failing that using the train's wi-fi? Or on catch up using iPlayer?
Keep up at the back ! The OP said Wifi is unusable (which it is, and in any case on my line they block streaming) and FM, DAB, and AM reception won't work either, haven't you read the entire thread, it's only 10 posts ?
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Old 12-12-2016, 07:42
jayteedc1
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1Gbps of backhaul should help.

http://www.landmobile.co.uk/news/ee-...rain-broadband

jayteedc
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:08
jonmorris
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Wi-fi has other issues, such as placement of the access points, congestion when lots of people use portable hotspots, and the fact that instead of trying to use one data connection for yourself, it has to be shared (and often throttled or with streaming services blocked entirely).

I think that with the move to offering Wi-Fi for free, it has actually made things worse. But even when paid, other issues mean people complain.

Trains are just not ideal environments for data connectivity, but hopefully EE and 800 at full power will help considerably, as well as the above plan in the Land Mobile link.
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:15
Mark C
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Trains are just not ideal environments for data connectivity, but hopefully EE and 800 at full power will help considerably, as well as the above plan in the Land Mobile link.
It should do, but not much can help with deep cuttings, and tunnels (that often of course come together) unless the Telcos run leaky feeders alongside the track in these places.

Ironically the best, most stable connection I've had is using the French networks inside the Channel Tunnel. That was on the UK bound tunnel. I understand EE and VF now
have the French bound tunnel covered ?
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:20
jonmorris
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Yes, both tunnels are covered. As are the tunnels to Heathrow.

Vodafone has done work to give seamless 4G from Victoria to Gatwick Airport.

It's all very good doing bits and bobs but the railway network is huge so there's lots of work needed.

Even GSM-R has issues and there aren't planning problems there.
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Old 12-12-2016, 13:07
swb1964
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Keep up at the back ! The OP said Wifi is unusable (which it is, and in any case on my line they block streaming) and FM, DAB, and AM reception won't work either, haven't you read the entire thread, it's only 10 posts ?
For all their many faults, you can generally get good DAB and FM reception on a Pacer.

Not that that helps the OP one bit of course.
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Old 12-12-2016, 13:13
tdenson
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Or on catch up using iPlayer?
I assume part of the attraction to listening to a station called 5Live is that it is ... err ... live
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Old 12-12-2016, 13:29
jonmorris
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For all their many faults, you can generally get good DAB and FM reception on a Pacer.
A Pacer can barely qualify as being called a train, and certainly doesn't have solar reflective film. The only film is probably the tape holding everything together.
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Old 12-12-2016, 13:45
Mark C
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A Pacer can barely qualify as being called a train, and certainly doesn't have solar reflective film. The only film is probably the tape holding everything together.
Is a Pacer one of those 70s Leyland buses, with its road wheels replaced by railway bogies ?

If so <shudder>
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Old 12-12-2016, 14:10
omnidirectional
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Is a Pacer one of those 70s Leyland buses, with its road wheels replaced by railway bogies ?

If so <shudder>
Yes, they're still common on Northern Rail.
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Old 17-12-2016, 04:04
srpsrp
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Not sure about Radio 5 or trains, however I agree with the OP. It's pretty amazing that I can get the internet whilst out and about. In practice however I have found that 3G simply does not work in any place where I'd actually want to use it. Mostly I can make do with my free BT WIFI where ever 3G actually works. Hence why I rarely pay for data bundles.

And yes, I'm guessing the OP has a iPhone, Built in radio ? Next you'll want a headphone socket !
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Old 17-12-2016, 09:54
tdenson
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And yes, I'm guessing the OP has a iPhone, Built in radio ? Next you'll want a headphone socket !
HaHa
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