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Corbyn's latest policy announcement to ensure Labour is unelectable - Ban petrol cars


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Old 21-12-2016, 13:20
sangreal
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Quite possibly moving to embedded wireless charging. However, the big caveat in all of this is who gets the project rolling. Fast broadband rollout was left to BT/Openreach quite a number of years ago and that has hardly been a nationwide success (especially as such rollouts require significant upfront investment with initial returns being very low). Private companies will generally look at the cost versus the payback time (which is why they tend to cherry-pick, doing the easiest/cheapest areas first, leaving the more difficult areas to last, or not do them at all).

Such significant parts of the national infrastructure cannot be left to free market forces. There has to be an element of Government involvement and/or finance. But I honestly cannot see future governments embarking upon such a scheme, especially when spending has already been squeezed (and will be likely to stay squeezed for many more years to come).

And no, I don't see a Corbyn-led administration (or one of similar leaning) ever getting into power.

Which to me means that we are looking at hybrid cars in the short term, and hydrogen fuel cell technologies longer-term (once prices have come down). Pure EV's I think could be swept aside as technology changes (making large-scale investment in a charging network rather pointless). better to concentrate on getting hydrogen refuelling facilities out there (alongside existing petrol pumps perhaps)..

This is a pretty closed UK-centric view.

Bear in mind, the car manufacturers are from USA, Germany, Japan, India, France, Italy, Scandinavia, China, S Korea, etc - not UK - and they've already decided on EV's being the future.

Superfast broadband rollout, renewable energy production & EV advancement have all been farcical in this country due to current government underinvestment in technology. The aforementioned countries are all already there, whilst we've been left behind.

Another example of the not so "greenest ever" Tories....
https://secure.greenpeace.org.uk/pag...solar-taxes-v3

I doubt if signing the petition will make any difference with this lot, but it can't do any harm trying....


Yes, hydrogen FCEVs are also a possibility, though there's only a handful of commercial models available.

We'll have to wait and see if any of the technologies take precedence and win the overall race.

It looks like currently, they're mainly being used for things like fire engines, trams, buses, forklift trucks, etc:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle
http://www.computerworld.com/article...rt-claims.html
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-new...-cell-vehicles

Interesting stuff.....


As for charging points/hubs/stations....

http://www.rolecserv.com/ev-charging

Bonus pics
https://www.zap-map.com/engine/wp-co...l-aacbd977.jpg
http://assets.rolecserv.com/files/di...v-charging.jpg
http://assets.rolecserv.com/files/pr...2-original.jpg
http://assets.rolecserv.com/files/pr...l-original.jpg

From: https://www.zap-map.com/ | http://www.rolecserv.com/ev-charging...S-AND-COUNTING
"December 13, 2016: Rolec EV has just made its 50,000 EV charge point, with the new unit dispatched from its Boston factory in Lincolnshire on Monday 12th December. Managing Director of Rolec, Kieron Alsop, commented: “Reaching the 50,000 mark clearly establishes Rolec EV as the UK’s leading manufacturer of EV charge points and, in association with our distribution and installation partners, we’re now focusing on reaching the 100,000 mark."

Anything is possible


EDIT !!!

Ohhhhh..... and.....
http://www.rolecserv.com/ev-charging...-STREET-LIGHTS
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Old 21-12-2016, 13:52
paulschapman
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http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2016/10/ren...er-generation/

Last year, renewable energy accounted for more than half of all new forms of power generation produced worldwide
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A new report put out by the International Energy Agency shows that renewable electricity capacity growth reached an all-time high in 2015, hitting the 153 gigawatt (GW) mark. That’s a 15 percent increase from 2014. To put this figure into perspective, the total in renewables growth is equivalent to the total current power capacity of Canada.
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Renewables in the form of solar and wind now account for more installed capacity than any other form of electricity, including coal.
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Old 21-12-2016, 13:56
andykn
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Growth in car ownership slowing down and with younger people leaving it much later to get a license one might not even need a charger outside every house (at least urban ones) - it is not even cost effective for many to have a new car when they live in a city.

When creating parking spaces for electric cars, start with the car club spaces - using magnetic induction, then move to new build housing estate car parks - that will give you are large base line and that without digging up a single street.
Car ownership in London is self limiting. There's only so many places to park overnight.
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Old 21-12-2016, 14:18
paulschapman
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Car ownership in London is self limiting. There's only so many places to park overnight.
That comes from government figures and is not just London, but if you thought about it for a minute I am actually helping you - since the argument that we cannot have electric cars because you need to dig up and wire parking spaces is less of a problem if we do not all own the cars we drive.

Indeed there are a number of advantages including reducing the area put aside so that cars can spend 90% plus of their life stationary. Over the last two decades rate of traffic growth rate has slowed from 50% in the 1980's to 65 now.

see https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...statistics.pdf

The point being that with less emphasis on car ownership and more on car sharing the need for complex, costly rewiring of charging points becomes less of an issue.

Although that is urban centric remember that in 2011 82% of the population of England live in urban areas. The median age of populations in urban areas is lower as well - which coincides with the groups where car ownership is less - which correlates with age - the younger age groups are less likely to own cars.

see http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...776_337939.pdf
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Old 21-12-2016, 14:41
Pemblechook
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What is your own car use?

I would be totally lost without mine. I just find it so convenient to jump in the car and go to places. I certainly wouldn't want to wait ages for a battery to charge.
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Old 21-12-2016, 15:10
smudges dad
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What is your own car use?

I would be totally lost without mine. I just find it so convenient to jump in the car and go to places. I certainly wouldn't want to wait ages for a battery to charge.
The whole point of the discussion is that you wouldn't have to wait ages for a battery to be charged, and you would still be able to jump in and go whenever you want.
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Old 21-12-2016, 15:24
paulschapman
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What is your own car use?
About 5,000 miles a year. The longest journey being around this time visiting family for Christmas. My commute is via public transport. Shopping the same. Visits to the cinema I drive but really could use public transport. Theatre you would be nuts to drive into the West End with a car. 242 bus from the end of my road to West End.

I would be totally lost without mine. I just find it so convenient to jump in the car and go to places. I certainly wouldn't want to wait ages for a battery to charge.
Depends where you live really which is why I am making a distinction between urban and rural driving. However you are wrong about needing to wait for some battery - just the same as you do not have to wait for your car to fill with petrol. Ranges are not so short that you need to re-charge your car every trip

The other thing is how old are you? As I said it is young people who are avoiding driving and so have not grown up like those of us in our 40's and 50's for whom learning to drive was a right of passage.
.
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Old 21-12-2016, 15:45
Pemblechook
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65. Normally our journeys are short. But we are driving 150 miles tomorrow and 150 miles back, We do 4 or 5 long trips a year and quite a few medium range. An electric car would be a proverbial chocolate teapot.
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Old 21-12-2016, 16:06
Happ Hazzard
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I don't see the point of electric cars. The electricity still has to be generated, and that will be through use of fossil fuels.
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Old 21-12-2016, 16:11
Pemblechook
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I don't see the point of electric cars. The electricity still has to be generated, and that will be through use of fossil fuels.
Most people don't.
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Old 21-12-2016, 16:14
smudges dad
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I don't see the point of electric cars. The electricity still has to be generated, and that will be through use of fossil fuels.
Not necessarily. First of all sustainable energy is increasing all the time. Secondly, if using fossil fuels it's difficult to put natural gas or plutonium in your car. Thirdly, oil is running out so will become more expensive again and also causes a lot of pollution.
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Old 21-12-2016, 16:23
Pemblechook
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Ignoring all the technical arguments it will be seen as a loony left idea and turn off the voters Labour needs to win over.
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Old 21-12-2016, 16:34
paulschapman
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65. Normally our journeys are short. But we are driving 150 miles tomorrow and 150 miles back, We do 4 or 5 long trips a year and quite a few medium range. An electric car would be a proverbial chocolate teapot.
Which is well within the range of electric cars for each leg of the journey. Apart from the fact assuming Corbyn gets to the point of implementing the ban you are looking at 14 years minimum before it comes into effect and another 10 years roughly for the petrol cars to run out - meaning about 24 years before everyone has an electric car at a minimum.

I don't see the point of electric cars. The electricity still has to be generated, and that will be through use of fossil fuels.
Over 50% of net new power generation is by renewable means. That is enough to generate the power generation requirements of Canada. (Please see my previous link for the official figures).

Something that will have to change as we are going to run out of hydrocarbon based fuels. That is before you get to the health problems caused by the waste products of the internal combustion engine.
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Old 21-12-2016, 16:47
Pemblechook
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""Which is well within the range of electric cars for each leg of the journey.""


Which cars on the market can do 150 miles on a charge?? As part of the outward journey is to be done in the dark how much will the headlights reduce the range and are we to travel feeling very cold? If we can do 150 miles you want us to fork out for a hotel over the next night while the battery is being recharged, What will that cost? Instead of being back in a little over 7 hours the whole journey is likely to take more like 30!! The driver needs to be back at work. CHOCOLATE TEAPOT. (Someone is being dropped off at a port) We will be scared to death that the battery pegs out and the person misses the sailing.
CHOCOLATE TEAPOT.
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Old 21-12-2016, 16:51
Pemblechook
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ACTUALLY.. It is more like 180 miles.. Just checked with the AA.
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Old 21-12-2016, 16:53
mossy2103
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Leaving aside the charging time issue (which I know some dispute, and which will come down), there is a good point there - use of electrical accessories, headlights, rear screen heater and aircon will have a big impact upon range, especially in the winter months
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Old 21-12-2016, 16:58
paulschapman
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""Which is well within the range of electric cars for each leg of the journey.""


Which cars on the market can do 150 miles on a charge?? As part of the outward journey is to be done in the dark how much will the headlights reduce the range and are we to travel feeling very cold? If we can do 150 miles you want us to fork out for a hotel over the next night while the battery is being recharged, What will that cost? Instead of being back in a little over 7 hours the whole journey is likely to take more like 30!! The driver needs to be back at work. CHOCOLATE TEAPOT. (Someone is being dropped off at a port) We will be scared to death that the battery pegs out and the person misses the sailing.
CHOCOLATE TEAPOT.
Renault Zoe - range 250 miles (I could find others if you want me to)

But as I said earlier it will be 14 years at least before any such ban comes in - with the current increase in battery range at the moment - an electric car will be well within the range you are talking about.

On Friday I will be driving up the M1 a distance of 144 miles - putting it well within the range of the Renault even now. Even my little Kia needs to be refilled for the return leg - so the range of an electric car is now about the same as a similar sized petrol car.
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Old 21-12-2016, 16:59
smudges dad
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""Which is well within the range of electric cars for each leg of the journey.""


Which cars on the market can do 150 miles on a charge?? .
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...m-electric-car
250 miles range OK for you?
Remember (as we keep saying) this isn't for next week but in 15-20 years, so if we can exceed your requirements now, what do you think will happen in the future?
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Old 21-12-2016, 17:09
Pemblechook
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How long would a car with a 250 mile range take to charge? People are quoting a few hours for only 40 miles range. 250 Still not enough. The car will do a 360 mile round trip.

No way is it possible to charge very large battery packs quickly. The power involved would be enormous.. 200 Volts maybe at 1000 amps.. massive plug and socket. 100 - 200 KWh battery packs
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Old 21-12-2016, 17:18
paulschapman
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How long would a car with a 250 mile range take to charge? People are quoting a few hours for only 40 miles range. 250 Still not enough. The car will do a 360 mile round trip.

No way is it possible to charge very large battery packs quickly. The power involved would be enormous.. 200 Volts maybe at 1000 amps.. massive plug and socket. 100 - 200 KWh battery packs
30 minutes for an 80% charge That puts it within range of the journey you said.

But as has been said repeatedly - this is for something that will not happen for 14 years or more - plenty of time for charging rates to improve.
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Old 21-12-2016, 17:20
sangreal
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Lol, the luddites are back.

@Pemblechook

What part of this do you not seem to understand?

1. The policy being considered is policy already decided by other countries such as Germany, Holland & Norway.

2. The policy wouldn't be enacted until sometime around 2025 to 2030

3. The policy is just to ban the sale of new petrol-based cars, not to ban the usage of petrol-based cars

4. Petrol supllies will run out eventually, with BP estimating we have around 50 years left.

5. Current EVs can already be be charged to 80% capacity in 30 mins, and 100% in 75 mins

6. By 2025-30, it is estimated that an 80% top-up charge will take a matter of seconds, and a 100% charge a matter of minutes.

7. The technology already exists and is already in practise across the entire developed world.

8. There are already thousands of EVs (whether lithium-ion battery powered, hydrogen fuel cell powered, plug-in hybrids, or other) on the roads and thousands of charging points/stations in the UK.

9. The technology is here to stay and is not going away.

10. You are welcome to stay with petrol-based cars for the next ~50(?) years. No-one is going to stop you.
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Old 21-12-2016, 17:26
Pemblechook
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"80% top-up charge will take a matter of seconds"


Absolutely ridiculous. LAUGHABLE . You would need a power source of MegaWatts for that.. Thousands of AMPSs at say 200 V. You seem to have next to zero knowledge of the physics involved. The plug and socket would the size of a bus and the whole process extremely dangerous.
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Old 21-12-2016, 17:33
Pemblechook
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100 kWh pack would require 100 kW for a one hour charge (if the process was 100% efficient.. which its isn't)

You would need 1 MW for a 6 minute charge (1/10 hr)

6 MW for a one minute charge.

15 sec charge you would need a 24,000,000 Watts power source. Not that any battery technology we have so far would survive those high powers. 24 Million Watts.

Scale it down for smaller battery packs would still mean large totally unpractical and dangerous power levels.
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Old 21-12-2016, 17:48
sangreal
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"80% top-up charge will take a matter of seconds"


Absolutely ridiculous. LAUGHABLE . You would need a power source of MegaWatts for that.. Thousands of AMPSs at say 200 V. You seem to have next to zero knowledge of the physics involved. The plug and socket would the size of a bus and the whole process extremely dangerous.

No. That is a typical luddite response.

It takes 30 minutes now to charge to 80%
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/supercharger

Scroll down and read the "How it works" section.....

It's got nothing to do with me or what I think, but maybe you'll listen to experts?

http://www.fleetcarma.com/electric-v...arging-future/

"While wireless charging may catch on soon, today’s solutions involve plugs, and they are about to get faster – much faster. Exhibit A is Porsche Mission E, an electric supercar in the works from Stuttgart. Massive power (600 horsepower) and generous range (300 miles) are on the spec sheet, but so is the capacity for 800v charging.

Compared to the standard 240v chargers of today’s Level 2 plugs, Porsche is anticipating a better future in fueling as well as EV performance, style, and range. Rather than 80% charge in 30 minutes (considered too slow by many), Mission E will be designed to cut the time in half. In other words, it could add 240 miles of range in 15 minutes.
"

And that's just around the corner....

You really think it won't drop any further from 15 mins between next year and 2025-30?


Bonus links
http://www.plugincars.com/350-kilowa...ng-132296.html
https://actu.epfl.ch/news/charging-a...illing-a-tank/
http://news.ihsmarkit.com/press-rele...hs-report-says
https://www.nrdc.org/experts/roland-...ehicles-bright
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Old 21-12-2016, 17:53
Pemblechook
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30 mins for 100 kWh is a power source of 200 kW .. hardly 13 amp plug stuff. Very basic physics.

GET REAL.
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